Oh no!...PGO!

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that is a flail, not a morning star. A morning star is a spiked mace (no chain
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I did a little research and it seems you are right. I have always erroneously used the the term (but apparently it is commonly done). I'm a little disappointed because morning star is just so much cooler sounding than flail. I learned something new today. That is often the result of good discussion in the market place of ideas.

I have to say there are a lot of posts on this thread that seem like little more than whinny complaining that really doesn't contribute much to the discussion.

If there is a particular instance of someone going way off topic in a thread or being personally insulting report that to a mod. To turn this thread into a complaint session for past grievances, real or imagined, is immature, inappropriate, and does very little to contribute to the discussion. It has in essence spun a civil discussion into a crying session over if other people have been treated not nicely in other threads.

Except it's not just me, it's many here who would like to have a discussion about PGO outside of the confines of performance and utility.
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Then start a thread about that use only and if someone gets off topic there then complain about it. Don't complain about on topic discussion here or go off topic here.
 
If the Mod's can't write a short sticky I will do it right now,

Title, Warning about Pistol Grip Only Shotguns (PGO)

Pistol Grip Only Shotguns are not the best choice for home defense and most people are better off with a full stocked gun.

Please don't consider buying a PGO for your one and only means of home defense!


Stay safe and have fun.
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My issue with your proposed sticky is it doesn't really flush out the issues. It states conclusions with no reasoning. It doesn't provide points and counter points or help someone understand why a PGO is not the best choice. It doesn't educate them as to the drawbacks of the platform etc. Civil discussion is better.

I'll also note one clearly can speak positively of PGO shotguns and not be berated or treated like the are stupid etc. In this thread I posited that PGO shotguns are very useful door breaching guns. No one has jumped all over me or mistreated me.
 
Pistol Grip Only Shotguns are not the best choice for home defense
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I don't think this board has any business taking official positions about what is, and what is not, an appropriate weapon for self-defense. Pros and cons can be discussed, but the ultimate decision lies with the gun owner.

When I had shotgun questions, I got some good advice, but it was my own testing and verification that settled the matter for me. I'm not taking any Internet person's word for anything. So no, the suggested sticky is a very bad idea.

Some boards have stickies that warn about certain topics that tend to lead to circular arguments, and advise avoiding them. That would be more appropriate.
 
The nice thing with most PGO's is it only takes a few minutes to change out to a full stock and so a person can easily try both and make up their own mind....
 
Shockwave,

You don't like my sticky idea...:(

That's ok maybe one of the experts can craft a better one.

Point is it would be nice to show off a gun or discuss PGO's without it devolving into a discussion on exactly how useful a PGO is compared with Full stock.

Your suggestion of making PGO threads a taboo or banned subject doesn't sit well with me.

Edit, I see where you are coming from with a sticky suggesting not talking about PGO's but if we can make a sticky that would satisfy the safety concerns of the PGO haters maybe they wouldn't hate so much...

The original poster in this thread thought Hickock was shooting fast and accurate and I would agree.
Sure he took his time shooting the slugs out past 25 yards but the target loads were shot fairly quickly and accurately...
The words fast and accurate combined with PGO got some hackles raised and the experts stepped in to remind us that PGO will never be as fast and accurate as Full stock.
 
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Your suggestion of making PGO threads a taboo or banned subject doesn't sit well with me.
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The sorts of warnings I'm talking about aren't exactly taboos or bans, more like they are signposts with pictures of piled up wreckage, indicating that a particular topic has been found to lead to argumentation without resolution - flame wars. The reader is thus advised to proceed with caution.
 
Moderator Justin wrote:
"That said, I took Jorg's cartoon in the context in which it was meant, as a joke. That someone could actually get offended by something so obviously meant to bring some levity to a thread is really kind of just beyond me."
Well, that "joke" was used to ridicule me. My posts in that thread used rationality and my own personal experience shooting PGO shotguns. The response from a moderator was a crude cartoon denegration of me and my opinion...again, from a moderator.
As the target of that "humor", I can tell you that, while I was not "offended", my opinion of the stated ideals of The High Road (which I fully appreciate and support) was changed greatly. At least, as they relate to the shotgun forum.
 
Amd6547,
It was kind of a funny drawing...:D.... and I think it was directed at the other guy who asked for a diagram of your layout.....I think he wanted to do a mock up of your living room at some secret location so he could access your assertions that you could indeed protect yourself at home with a PGO...:what:

It takes a bit of sifting through all the posts but it seems that in the end we all agree that scores are better and faster with a full stock and a PGO is not useless.

As long as the PGO fans can refrain from making claims that PGO's are superior to Full Stock's in every way then the Full Stock fans won't have to explain to us just how lame the PGO really is!

Like my good man Bootsy Collins once said...

"We can do this" :)
 
It simply did not seem "High Road" to me...Nor that the "moderators" and their fanboys are the main antagonists in the discussion.
I have said, in every discussion on this type of shotgun, that a stocked shotgun is superior for most uses. However, I find that within its niche, the PGO shotgun performs admirably. I am not alone in this opinion...the PGO shotgun has existed since the days of blackpowder. It is, simply, a devastating close range weapon. If it did not exist, it would be invented.
 
Funny thing Gus is there have been very few people ever make that claim in the past on THR....

The odd guy has said that they prefer PGO for their needs and this has been construed as an opinion that PGO is always superior to Full stock when it simply is not the case....
 
It simply did not seem "High Road" to me...Nor that the "moderators" and their fanboys are the main antagonists in the discussion.
I have said, in every discussion on this type of shotgun, that a stocked shotgun is superior for most uses. However, I find that within its niche, the PGO shotgun performs admirably. I am not alone in this opinion...the PGO shotgun has existed since the days of blackpowder. It is, simply, a devastating close range weapon. If it did not exist, it would be invented.
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No argument from me.....:)

I think once people get fevered and emotional about their own opinion stupid things get said or in this case typed.
 
oh and if anyone has a few spare hours I'd love to see a few posts where some PGO fan claimed that it is a superior configuration to full stock in every situation from breaching, backpacking, to trap and 3 gun fun and run.

Good luck.
 
As far as breaching use of the shotgun...It seems rather shortsighted to carry a PGO shotgun into combat as a breaching tool, and not to include a few buckshot rounds in the kit...and to know how to shoot them.
 
Well, as far as claiming this or that, my original post to this thread was to challenge that the video showed they could be shot quickly, which the video does not show. I wouldn't have posted at all if not for that. As for what others wanted to prove, I'll leave it them to do.

I would certainly be interested to see an essay that proposed in what specific circumstances PGOs were particularly useful relative to other choices and then had quantitative data to support the point compared to other types of weapons in the same circumstances, given the backdrop that they are clearly less useful for "most uses."
 
Let me add something here, just as a general observation.

Pistol grips on shotguns are cool. They are damn cool. They look cool, and holding one and pointing it like a pistol is a very cool thing.

Makes you feel like the Terminator. It's totally natural that people would buy these guns or mod their shotguns to this style, and then come up with a rationale for doing it.

Off the cuff: The PGO is more maneuverable in the tight quarters of a home. Easier to swing through doorways. Compact and close to the body - perfect for HD. You can fire one-handed. Easy to toss in a backseat or behind the truck cab. Stow it in a gym bag. It's a lot of gun in a small package. Who is to say this is not a great SD weapon?

Everything in the previous paragraph is open to question. Do a little range time, investigate your home layout, add a folding stock and it all gets very clear. The PGO adds no advantage and it has drawbacks. It's still an awesome weapon and oh heck yeah, it's very cool. A stock of any sort, fixed or folding, overcomes all disadvantages and solves the equation.

But maybe you have to figure that out on your own. Still, it's easy to understand why people get all emotional about it. They want that cool thing, and then back-justify the logic to make it work. C'est la vie.
 
Whitecoyote: I bet that's fun to shoot. A stock would be longer than that whole gun, but you could shoot better with one, I know that's true because I read it on this forum.
 
I have tried folding stocks, and found them the worst of both worlds...I say this as a fan of folders on rifles. The folders I tried made the weapon bulkier to store (a consideration for my purposes), and were very uncomfortable to fire in the unfolded position (not a consideration in combat, perhaps, but certainly for practice). Some, in the folded position inhibited the pump fore-end. Open or closed, they were less well balanced.
In fact, I am not a fan of pistol gripped fixed stocks for shotguns either...I shot a friends Mossberg equipped with the Choate fixed stoc/pistol grip set up, and did not like it at all. For a fixed buttstock shotgun, I am a traditionalist...I prefer a standard sporting configuration stock with the semi-pistol grip. Perhaps that is why I like the birdshead PGO style...it handles like a traditional stock, as well as handling recoil better than the other pistol grips.
"Cool", and "the terminator" have nothing to do with my choice to have a Speedfeed birdshead grip on ONE of my two riot guns (important point...my PGO Mossberg is not my only shotgun).
Practicality and minimal storage size (without NFA paperwork) has everything to do with it.
 
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Speedfeed is my choice as well.

Nice little blaster WhiteCoyote
Does anyone know off hand if those folding forends are available separately?
I've only seen them on the Serbu's?

Zak except for the slugs where he was taking his time shooting out past 25 yards I thought he was blasting the short range targets fairly quickly...and moving around a bit as well. Sure he wasn't operating the gun at max potential operating speed... but you can't really say he was shooting slow through out the entire video.
Maybe it's becuase you are so fast that it seems slow to you.
I know when I am skiing everyone else around me seems to be standing still.
 
Hmmm...this is why I no longer reply to the 870 express like threads they get too passionate by stockholders...(get the pun ;) )

Still, for this particular thread, I think a lot of you guys are missing out on some quality data by only seeing one of hickock45's videos. Go to his collection and see what he can do with a pistol, or revolver da or single action or a bow at ridiculous ranges and then I think many opinions of him will change. He's a good guy - to me a modern day John Wayne.
 
Maybe I watched a different video than everyone else. I saw a man doing what he enjoys and sharing what he enjoys doing.

Thanks for the link, I've never seen his videos before; then again, I don't spend a lot of time on youtube either.

Edit' <add> I forgot to editorialize. I am jealous of his range ;-0 .
 
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Leadhead, the answer to your question is contained in the first response I wrote to this thread, ie, perspective.
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I guess I missed it, but I can see where you are coming from!
When you are as fast as we are (you shooting and me skiing)everything else seems kind of slow....:p
 
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