Chedderbob
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Oh no!...PGO!
- Thread starter Blakenzy
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Guns and more
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I don't recall him saying he was going for speed. You anti P/G'ers, always throw out the straw man fallacy. "Yeah, but can he hit skeet? Ahah!"
It is what it is. If I went hunting, I'd take a full stock. In my home, at 10' I'll take my P/G.
Viva la difference.
whitecoyote
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The shotgun I use for Trap. 
Andrew Wyatt
Member
What is your argument for the specific use of the PGO shotgun? Where is it more effective than a shotgun with a stock? What specific circumstance would mitigate the use of a full stock shotgun?
Guns and more
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Narrow hallways, doorways. It fits in my safe better since I don't have any long guns.
I'm not trying to convince you to get one, I just get tired of the knee jerk, "P/G are no good." I'll bet if I asked, "have you ever owned one?" the answer would be, "Heck, no, they're no good."
Personally, I don't like the bird head sawed off look, other than historical value. Mine has the Knoxx "breecher's grip", and I could shoot it all day. (from the hip).
This argument, "Any three gun competitor could have beaten his time." made me respond.
Straw man argument. Irrelevant.
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Zak Smith
Member
It is relevant to the claim the video demonstrated quick shooting.
RX-178
Member
Storage space in small rooms or apartments, storage space in vehicles, storage space in a pack while camping or hiking..... in two words, storage space.
A birdshead grip PGO is the most compact shotgun you can get. It's also about $100 less than even budget-priced pistols, like Taurus, and I will never susbscribe to the theory that pistols are more effective weapons than PGO 12 gauge shotguns.
I agree with the OP, in that Hickok45 in that video has demonstrated the ability to use a birdshead PGO with enough speed and accuracy that it would be effective in a home defense situation. He also demonstrated enough accuracy with high brass slugs for using it for defense against 4-legged critters.
Do I have a PGO shotgun? No, the circumstances of storage space that would lead me to use one don't apply to me. I have enough room in my home for a full stock shotgun, and enough room in my vehicle for a folding stock shotgun. I don't camp or hike often enough for one either.
I also take some issue with the Moderators' stance on PGOs on this board. While I don't agree wtih posters accusing the mods of belittling people who own and use PGOs, I DO believe that the Mods look the other way when users make posts belitting other users for owning and using PGO shotguns.
Unfortunately, I do believe, that THR is not a board where there can be PGO discussion without chiding and belittling of PGO owners.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
If making hits on target with a PGO shotgun is slower than with other guns, be it a properly stocked shotgun or a handgun, ithe argument could be made that it is indeed slow shooting.
amd6547
Member
You guys just keep patting yourselves on the back, and I will keep doing what has worked for me for a couple decades, and a lot of other shooters on both sides of the law for a couple centuries.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
The argument for the PGO seems to boil down to:
1. the gun is short, and it is somewhat suitable for the job of shooting a single intruder at very short range.
what the people who are proponents of PGO shotguns as anything other than a door breaching tool seem to forget is that the PGO shotgun is now a specialized weapon which is only marginally suitable for one circumstance, whereas a stocked shotgun can be used in a wider variety of situations, making it more convenient to maintain proficiency with,and more cost effective to own, since you don't need to buy an additional gun with a stock to hunt with or shoot clays or do 3 gun.
there are some very useable folding stocks available for shotguns, including the knoxx folder, which, when folded is exactly the same length as the breacher's grip one poster uses on their shotgun.
another thing that people seem to forget is that one's gross motor skills go out the window under stress. what's "good enough" in a well lighted room with no one shooting at you is grossly inadequate in the dark with incoming fire.
1. the gun is short, and it is somewhat suitable for the job of shooting a single intruder at very short range.
what the people who are proponents of PGO shotguns as anything other than a door breaching tool seem to forget is that the PGO shotgun is now a specialized weapon which is only marginally suitable for one circumstance, whereas a stocked shotgun can be used in a wider variety of situations, making it more convenient to maintain proficiency with,and more cost effective to own, since you don't need to buy an additional gun with a stock to hunt with or shoot clays or do 3 gun.
there are some very useable folding stocks available for shotguns, including the knoxx folder, which, when folded is exactly the same length as the breacher's grip one poster uses on their shotgun.
another thing that people seem to forget is that one's gross motor skills go out the window under stress. what's "good enough" in a well lighted room with no one shooting at you is grossly inadequate in the dark with incoming fire.
Andrew, I use mine for backpacking to save weight and space because we aren't allowed to carry handguns off the gun range in Canada.
Also it's easy to switch between stocks on most shotguns, there is no need to buy another shotgun.... takes me a few minutes to mount a full stock on my 870.
Also it's easy to switch between stocks on most shotguns, there is no need to buy another shotgun.... takes me a few minutes to mount a full stock on my 870.
SpamHandler
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This again? http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t= 468713
Here's an example of a 72-year-old man, with minimal training, who hadn't fired the weapon in 30-odd years, can do. Would his 'effectiveness' been improved by a full stock? Possibly, but concealability seems to have been his primary concern -one which would not be served by a full-length stock.
Why not a pistol? Not likely in NYC. His choice was certainly adequate for the intended task, and may well have been optimal given his circumstances. It's a niche weapon, plain and simple.
Here's an example of a 72-year-old man, with minimal training, who hadn't fired the weapon in 30-odd years, can do. Would his 'effectiveness' been improved by a full stock? Possibly, but concealability seems to have been his primary concern -one which would not be served by a full-length stock.
Why not a pistol? Not likely in NYC. His choice was certainly adequate for the intended task, and may well have been optimal given his circumstances. It's a niche weapon, plain and simple.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
I use an H&R handi shotgun for that job, it breaks down real small, only weighs about 5.5 pounds, and has honest to god sights and a stock.
It seems like people pick PGO's because they bought them because they looked cool and then feel like they have to justify their expenditure, or because they can't get something better for the job..
I didn't buy mine in PGO configuration.
Lots of assumptions....
I also use a break down single shot cooey 84 sometimes but the rem 870 holds a few more shells in the tube.
I guess they do sort of look cool..... maybe that's what irks so many?
Lots of assumptions....
I also use a break down single shot cooey 84 sometimes but the rem 870 holds a few more shells in the tube.
I guess they do sort of look cool..... maybe that's what irks so many?
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Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Chuck Norris doesn't need a stock on his shotgun. The shotgun is so afraid for it's life, that it aims for him.
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And it did.
Don't you see how silly your argument is?
"Can anyone shoot a pistol quickly?" "No, because there is a guy who is faster."
I think that has been proven.
I have broad shoulders. I didn't always believe everything the nuns told me, I didn't always believe everything the college professors told me, and I probably won't believe everything your old gunnery Sargent told you, either.
rbernie
Contributing Member
And hopefully, all of those who have not had the opportunity to try both PGO and stocked shotguns (and who therefore have not learned for themselves that the PGO version is simply less effective in most any situation relative to a fully stocked shotgun) will not believe those who like to proclaim the effectiveness of the PGO as a principal virtue.
Zak Smith
Member
I didn't just say that there was one guy who was faster. I said that the average guy at a local 3-Gun match would be much faster, IE, the average guy who shoots a shotgun in a "graded" environment (ie, performance quantified for time and accuracy).
My Mossberg 500 came with a stock and PG, I took the stock off and installed the PG. This gun is perfect for what I needed. When I carry the gun out the house it's in a bag that's for a metal frame chair, there is a hole in the bag so the detachable sling can be reattached. When I shoot the gun I pull the bag off the gun but leave it on the sling. No one knows that I'm carrying a shotgun. I carry it on the motorcycle the same way. I can't walk good so I use the motor scooter or motorcycle to check this property and buildings. I carry a SP101 but it's nice to have a shotgun. Also I hit what I shoot at.
Gord
Member
Know what I've always been curious about?
It's pretty much settled that the only real benefit to a PGO shotgun that anyone who owns one can come up with is "it stores in a smaller space." That's it.
So I always wondered exactly where these people live (since I'm assuming less than 10% buy a PGO specifically as a car or backpacking gun) that a 2x4x13" area is so crucial to their living arrangements. That is the approximate area of a standard full shotgun stock. 104 cubic inches. Rounded up. That is less than the space a pair of shoes takes up on the floor.
Is your living space that cramped, is there absolutely no other piece of nonessential crap that you could get rid of, that you have to buy a PGO shotgun for ease of storage? Or is your living space in fact crammed full of the same amount of crap and decorative baubles as everyone else's, and you're just trying to grasp for something, anything to give some logical credibility to a nonsensical purchasing decision since you know you can't do it objectively?
It's pretty much settled that the only real benefit to a PGO shotgun that anyone who owns one can come up with is "it stores in a smaller space." That's it.
So I always wondered exactly where these people live (since I'm assuming less than 10% buy a PGO specifically as a car or backpacking gun) that a 2x4x13" area is so crucial to their living arrangements. That is the approximate area of a standard full shotgun stock. 104 cubic inches. Rounded up. That is less than the space a pair of shoes takes up on the floor.
Is your living space that cramped, is there absolutely no other piece of nonessential crap that you could get rid of, that you have to buy a PGO shotgun for ease of storage? Or is your living space in fact crammed full of the same amount of crap and decorative baubles as everyone else's, and you're just trying to grasp for something, anything to give some logical credibility to a nonsensical purchasing decision since you know you can't do it objectively?
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Zak wasn't making that point at all.
What he was pointing out was that the original video does not demonstrate "fast shooting" by someone of even moderate skill. It's not so much that there's someone else "out there, somewhere" who's faster, so much as the same person could likely make the same hits on target with either a proper shotgun or even a handgun faster than with a PGO.
If the PGO is slower than a proper gun, then it really does kind of beg the question as to why someone would deliberately choose a self-defense weapon that puts them at a distinct disadvantage.
Maybe it's so buddy can argue in court that he gave the perp every advantage by shooting him twice in the chest at close range with his 12 gauge PGO ( improper chopper)....
You guys are so funny with your "proper" guns and focus on speed.
If a guy picks up a double barreled shotgun and then goes off to investigate a noise in his house how fast does he need to be?
Most home SD scenarios are not going to involve multiple armed threats that require reloads and the ability to shoot fast while on the move....if you guys are ready for that invasion then more power to you, but don't expect everyone else to live by your standard of preparedness.
I'd say for most break ins just the fact that the homeowner is awake and armed would deter the vast majority of thieves and if not then a blast of buckshot to the chest would likely be the final argument.
How fast does somebody have to be to make the first shot count?
Zak Smith
Member
A person can be as slow as they want, or use whatever guns they want. That's their own deal. I take issue when someone claims that performance is something it is not (eg "quick and accurate") once compared with a wider perspective of known shooting abilities ("your average 3-Gun shooter").
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