TenRingGuns.com
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Hmmm
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Online "discount" gun dealers
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Double_J
Member
There is a man by the name of Chris Brady who made an audio training cd titled "you can't commoditize community." It is in this cd that he explains what personal relationships are, and how valuable they are in the world today. You can buy anything you want from the internet and have it shipped to you. The ONLY thing that keeps you from being driven out of business is your "community" or customer base.
You HAVE to build a good customer base, and keep it growing. This is done by either offering BETTER service than the other guy, or being cheaper. Should you go cheaper then what is to stop the next guy from dropping his price lower than yours? lets all say this together now...NOTHING! Having the lowest price will not keep you in business forever, someone with deeper pockets can take a loss and drive you out of the game.
Having a good customer base is about being able to take care of the customer. This means that you must find their needs. It can be broken down to these easy steps: make a friend, find a need, transfer a feeling. Making a friend is the most important part, if you fail here then the customer will have no problem finding someone else who will fill that role. Finding a need is also important, but it is a bit easier in that you know that the customer is interested in what you have to offer. Transferring a feeling is the hard part. You have to convey a feeling of trust and belief that you care about the customer, and not only about his money. You must believe in him and build him up, that way he will want to come spend time with you outside of the sale, and bring friends of his to you.
If you want more information about this topic please pm me. I will gladly get you some information on this topic.
You HAVE to build a good customer base, and keep it growing. This is done by either offering BETTER service than the other guy, or being cheaper. Should you go cheaper then what is to stop the next guy from dropping his price lower than yours? lets all say this together now...NOTHING! Having the lowest price will not keep you in business forever, someone with deeper pockets can take a loss and drive you out of the game.
Having a good customer base is about being able to take care of the customer. This means that you must find their needs. It can be broken down to these easy steps: make a friend, find a need, transfer a feeling. Making a friend is the most important part, if you fail here then the customer will have no problem finding someone else who will fill that role. Finding a need is also important, but it is a bit easier in that you know that the customer is interested in what you have to offer. Transferring a feeling is the hard part. You have to convey a feeling of trust and belief that you care about the customer, and not only about his money. You must believe in him and build him up, that way he will want to come spend time with you outside of the sale, and bring friends of his to you.
If you want more information about this topic please pm me. I will gladly get you some information on this topic.
jcwit
member
I'll agree with the above statement for sure, most every LEO I've seen at the range sure needed more training/practice. Most were hard pressed to hit anything in a range environment let alone in a heated emergency/save you're life situation.
Here's another example.
Brick & Morter Seller 'A' is selling it at $500.00 delivered.
OnLine Seller 'B' is selling it at $449.00 delivered.
Both have similar 'A+' ratings there.
With seller 'B' you will need to spend additional $20.00 transfer fee bringing total to $469.00
By a show of hands, how many would buy it from Seller 'B'?
I would, now I have cash for a couple of boxes of ammo depending on make and caliber.
I need no one to hold my hand or teach me about the weapon, but hey, I don't consider myself average either.
TITAN308
Member
Did I miss something?
I was under the impression that gun stores get a majority of their money from transfers and "misc items" for guns (like ammo, targets, etc etc) not the gun itself.
Kind of how like food places actually make very little on food, its made on beverages and booze.
For example the average price of a soda at a sit down joint is $2.49.
The box of syrup for the soda cost about $48.00 - $70.00
The box of syrup makes hundreds of sodas before it runs out. Even accounting for equipment to dispense and mix the soda with carbonated water - without even getting the calculator you can see where this is going.
Same concept with tea.
lol water + sugar + tea bag = $2.49 x alot
I was under the impression that gun stores get a majority of their money from transfers and "misc items" for guns (like ammo, targets, etc etc) not the gun itself.
Kind of how like food places actually make very little on food, its made on beverages and booze.
For example the average price of a soda at a sit down joint is $2.49.
The box of syrup for the soda cost about $48.00 - $70.00
The box of syrup makes hundreds of sodas before it runs out. Even accounting for equipment to dispense and mix the soda with carbonated water - without even getting the calculator you can see where this is going.
Same concept with tea.
lol water + sugar + tea bag = $2.49 x alot
TenRingGuns.com
Member
Not to digress but "training" is relative. The fact is small departments provide little to no regular training, they can't afford it. Medium to large departments on the other hand, provide a lot more; although recently due to economic factors, this is changing. That's my mistake for not clarifying for those unfamiliar with LEO issues like these.
LEO's do know more about guns, tactics, etc. than most gun owners, there's nothing to assume, that's a fact. What I said is a true statement. You can choose to infer whatever you think I mean by "gun owners" but don't infer something that I didn't say. I didn't say "firearms enthusiasts/gun nuts" like Teach said.
Anyhow, my point is that FFL dealers with an LEO/military background have a lot to offer their customers in the ways of service, knowledge, and expertise. We are more than willing to pass on what we learned on duty/patrol on to others.
Titan, I think it all depends on the shops business strategy. FFL fees vary in my area. But several of the more well known shops also have ranges and they make a lot of profit on that end even more so than on their guns.
LEO's do know more about guns, tactics, etc. than most gun owners, there's nothing to assume, that's a fact. What I said is a true statement. You can choose to infer whatever you think I mean by "gun owners" but don't infer something that I didn't say. I didn't say "firearms enthusiasts/gun nuts" like Teach said.
Anyhow, my point is that FFL dealers with an LEO/military background have a lot to offer their customers in the ways of service, knowledge, and expertise. We are more than willing to pass on what we learned on duty/patrol on to others.
Titan, I think it all depends on the shops business strategy. FFL fees vary in my area. But several of the more well known shops also have ranges and they make a lot of profit on that end even more so than on their guns.
bob barker
Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2011
- Messages
- 101
Sounds alot like my experiences... I have dropped $10k in the last 6 months at a gun shop because they have shown me great service. The guys are knowledgable, and the prices are comparable. I could buy on line and saved a few hundred dollars off of ALL my purchases, but I like the guys. They know my name when I walk in and give me great service, and they should! I have spent a few dollars in there. I have a gun shop near the house that is even nicer, with an indoor range. I shoot there all the time. I dont buy my guns from them though. Partly because they dont take American Express. This was the main reasn I chose the other shop. But they gave me excellent service, and I have stayed loyal.
Thats my other great beef with gun shops.. Why is everyone against American Express. I understand they charge a higher usegae rate to the shop, but Amex users typically spend WAY more money.
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Actually, Tom, you said
While I agree that you know things because you were a cop that the average gun owner doesn't, I believe that most of that knowledge has little or no value to your firearms customers in regards to their purchase. Now if you were an armorer or rangemaster or firearms instructor for your department, that is a different matter.
Perhaps you could enlighten me with an example of your LE experience/training/knowledge that would apply. I'm always willing to reconsider my position!
While I agree that you know things because you were a cop that the average gun owner doesn't, I believe that most of that knowledge has little or no value to your firearms customers in regards to their purchase. Now if you were an armorer or rangemaster or firearms instructor for your department, that is a different matter.
Perhaps you could enlighten me with an example of your LE experience/training/knowledge that would apply. I'm always willing to reconsider my position!
35Rem
Member
There was a comment about not taking any money until the gun was transferred, earlier. BAD IDEA.
People back out all the time. There is a reason places require deposits.
People back out all the time. There is a reason places require deposits.
35Rem
Member
I almost forgot!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0
"I'm the only one in this room, that I know of, professional enough to carry this Glock 40."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0
"I'm the only one in this room, that I know of, professional enough to carry this Glock 40."
JD Armory
Member
To whomever said police know more about guns because they spend 1000's of hours training, you do realize very little training is on firearms right? Most of it is on all of the other aspects of the job of being a cop.
Now as a part time FFL, who does have a commercial shop (open most weeknights and weekends, also by appointment), I usually mark up firearms around 15% (some higher, some a bit lower). Ammo and accessories get marked up a bit higher, but not by much. I only charge $15 for transfers, which is about $10 cheaper than any other place in town. I find this covers all of the overhead easily, so I'm not sure why any gun store being run well would need a markup of 35% on firearms, much less the markup that implies on everything else, to survive.
As to what "services" I and other LGS' can provide to customers to differentiate ourselves from online sellers, there's not a whole lot a store can do. We do training for our state's concealed handgun license, the NRA's Refuse to be a victim class, and the NRA children's firearm safety class (its exact name escapes me atm). Additionally, we can do basic gunsmithing and offer cheaper shipping back to manufacturer's for warranty work than if a customer just mailed the gun on their own. We are also an NRA Freedom Center and are heavily involved in Second Amendment activism in the state, which some of our customers appreciate.
Now as a part time FFL, who does have a commercial shop (open most weeknights and weekends, also by appointment), I usually mark up firearms around 15% (some higher, some a bit lower). Ammo and accessories get marked up a bit higher, but not by much. I only charge $15 for transfers, which is about $10 cheaper than any other place in town. I find this covers all of the overhead easily, so I'm not sure why any gun store being run well would need a markup of 35% on firearms, much less the markup that implies on everything else, to survive.
As to what "services" I and other LGS' can provide to customers to differentiate ourselves from online sellers, there's not a whole lot a store can do. We do training for our state's concealed handgun license, the NRA's Refuse to be a victim class, and the NRA children's firearm safety class (its exact name escapes me atm). Additionally, we can do basic gunsmithing and offer cheaper shipping back to manufacturer's for warranty work than if a customer just mailed the gun on their own. We are also an NRA Freedom Center and are heavily involved in Second Amendment activism in the state, which some of our customers appreciate.
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TenRingGuns.com
Member
Great post Double J, couldn't agree more.
RhinoDefense
Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2010
- Messages
- 883
That is correct. Retail gun shops make money on accessories and services, not on new firearm sales. New firearms average 10-15% gross. Have a gunsmith on staff? Cha-ching!TITAN308 said:
Nope, not the least bit agitated....just making a point that, by and large, the average cop isn't any more of an firearms expert than the average shooter. Others have echoed that sentiment, so if you're inferring I'm 'agitated" because I disagree with you, then many here seem "agitated." You act as though it should jusgt be assumed that because one may be LEO, that they are an expert in all things guns. The truth of the matter is far from it....some cops don't fire a shot that isn't required by their department, and the amount of "live fire" needed for annual qualifications is hardly enough to qualify someone as more knowledgeable than the guys out on the range every other weekend expending thousands of rounds annually. Like i said, sure, there are cops that are "gun guys" and people like the instructors or armorers for the larger department may very well be masters in their area of expertise......but, I don't buy the attitude of "I'm (was) a cop...therefore I know more than you". Thats a mighty presumptuous attitude to bring to a conversation.
JohnBT
Member
Here's another example.
Brick & Morter Seller 'A' is selling it at $500.00 delivered.
OnLine Seller 'B' is selling it at $449.00 delivered.
Both have similar 'A+' ratings there.
With seller 'B' you will need to spend additional $20.00 transfer fee bringing total to $469.00
By a show of hands, how many would buy it from Seller 'B'?
______________________
And then there's Seller 'C' -
"Hey, JohnBT, where have you been the last couple of weeks? I have a shipment sitting in the back that we haven't priced and tagged yet to put on the shelves, but there's an XYZ gun I think you'd like and it's the only one we've been able to get. Want to see it? You can have it for $1200 which is $100 under list."
I'll take Seller 'C' who knows me and thinks about me from time to time.
Brick & Morter Seller 'A' is selling it at $500.00 delivered.
OnLine Seller 'B' is selling it at $449.00 delivered.
Both have similar 'A+' ratings there.
With seller 'B' you will need to spend additional $20.00 transfer fee bringing total to $469.00
By a show of hands, how many would buy it from Seller 'B'?
______________________
And then there's Seller 'C' -
"Hey, JohnBT, where have you been the last couple of weeks? I have a shipment sitting in the back that we haven't priced and tagged yet to put on the shelves, but there's an XYZ gun I think you'd like and it's the only one we've been able to get. Want to see it? You can have it for $1200 which is $100 under list."
I'll take Seller 'C' who knows me and thinks about me from time to time.
jcwit
member
But seller 'C' did not exist in my example.
How bout seller 'D'
Seller 'D' known friend at the gun show says Hey Joe got a gun I bought a few years ago, never did like it, I'll let you have it for $200.00 being as I know you like these. I got it for $300 but somebody said they've gone up now, I just want to get rid of it.
I'll take seller 'D' who is a friend and giving me a great deal.
We can keep these maybe's going forever, all the way to 'Z'.
I've actually had similar sales happen to me as I gave the example above.
How bout seller 'D'
Seller 'D' known friend at the gun show says Hey Joe got a gun I bought a few years ago, never did like it, I'll let you have it for $200.00 being as I know you like these. I got it for $300 but somebody said they've gone up now, I just want to get rid of it.
I'll take seller 'D' who is a friend and giving me a great deal.
We can keep these maybe's going forever, all the way to 'Z'.
I've actually had similar sales happen to me as I gave the example above.
Ashcons
Member
answer to the OP
Hi TenRingGuns.com,
These types of threads are interesting because there is a line in the sand where the FFLs crowd on one side or the other: those who welcome transfers and the resulting benefits, and those who see transfers as a hassle with little or no value added to their retail establishment.
My income is limited and the gun hobby vies for attention for that limited resource with baby stuff, wife stuff, and bills (I am not an FFL or a retailer).
My attitude towards LGSes AND e-tailers is ambivalent. Whoever suits my needs gets my money and pricing factors into my needs. That said, most the LGS here do not like transfers and will not otherwise get my business (found that out trying to buy a C&R item that none of them had in stock).
I like:
Quantity of inventory
Inventory browsing accessible any time
Concurrent research
Prices
I don't like that I cannot touch the inventory.
It depends. If the local gunsmith who has won my loyalty can get a gun around the same price as the e-tailer, I will order from him; otherwise he is happy to transfer. Price is a big factor as my funds are limited, I generally research and have little need to take up any additional time.
I prefer to buy handguns from an LGS that stocks them. They're going to have to be somewhat flexible on pricing, but I understand that volume sales are going to beat the small guy every time, but I will be using his inventory to make my decision and want to support his carrying cost of that inventory. Some of your customers will not understand those things or won't care because price is their only factor.
Hi TenRingGuns.com,
These types of threads are interesting because there is a line in the sand where the FFLs crowd on one side or the other: those who welcome transfers and the resulting benefits, and those who see transfers as a hassle with little or no value added to their retail establishment.
My income is limited and the gun hobby vies for attention for that limited resource with baby stuff, wife stuff, and bills (I am not an FFL or a retailer).
My attitude towards LGSes AND e-tailers is ambivalent. Whoever suits my needs gets my money and pricing factors into my needs. That said, most the LGS here do not like transfers and will not otherwise get my business (found that out trying to buy a C&R item that none of them had in stock).
I like:
Quantity of inventory
Inventory browsing accessible any time
Concurrent research
Prices
I don't like that I cannot touch the inventory.
It depends. If the local gunsmith who has won my loyalty can get a gun around the same price as the e-tailer, I will order from him; otherwise he is happy to transfer. Price is a big factor as my funds are limited, I generally research and have little need to take up any additional time.
I prefer to buy handguns from an LGS that stocks them. They're going to have to be somewhat flexible on pricing, but I understand that volume sales are going to beat the small guy every time, but I will be using his inventory to make my decision and want to support his carrying cost of that inventory. Some of your customers will not understand those things or won't care because price is their only factor.
FourTeeFive
Member
Recently I went to Skagit Arms in Burlington, WA. This is about a half hour drive from TenRings location so it is an example of his competition.
I went in just to look around. They have some really good prices on Sigs that are about the same as if I bought from an online discounter and paid shipping and transfer fee. I checked out the Sigs and then looked through their used gun selection, which is pretty good. Done with that I went over to look at new Glocks. A guy who works there named Will asked if I'd like to see anything. I said "do you have any Glock 17L's?" He said "no, we get them in at times but don't always have them in stock. However, I have a recently traded in Glock 34 Practical Tactical that looks almost new; let me grab it for you."
He got the gun, racked the slide and inspected it, and handed it to me. I looked at it, handed it back, and he took the slide off and showed me how it looked like it hadn't been fired by any owners. I'm not a huge Glock guy and wasn't familiar with the 34 so I asked him about the difference between it and the 17L and a regular 17. He explained the barrel/slide length (I wanted longer than a 17), trigger pull, and ported slide. Nice gun. He said "It is $519 but if you're interested I'm sure we can do a little better". I paid $500 plus tax, did the paperwork, bought some .22LR ammo, and walked out the door. With paperwork and everything I was probably only there for 20 minutes or so total, including my looking around the shop.
This is what I want in a gun store. Good selection in a nice organized place. Friendly knowledgeable sales staff who are able to quickly understand what I'm looking for and offer helpful suggestions. And good competitive pricing. That is what gets my business and will make me a regular customer. Add to that a good used gun selection and I will come back often.
I wasn't really planning on buying anything that day but I was there at the right time and the sales guy was helpful and found me something he knew would interest me because he was listening. And he made a sale because of that.
When I do order firearms online it tends to be hard-to-find items that nobody locally stocks, or just amazing price deals that are hard to pass up. CDNN Investments does a good job with their catalog and sometimes has some great deals. If my local dealer has a similar product and the price is in the ballpark, I'll definite go with the local dealer. I have a relatively local guy that primarily does FFL transfers and charges $30 for those times I do order something online.
I went in just to look around. They have some really good prices on Sigs that are about the same as if I bought from an online discounter and paid shipping and transfer fee. I checked out the Sigs and then looked through their used gun selection, which is pretty good. Done with that I went over to look at new Glocks. A guy who works there named Will asked if I'd like to see anything. I said "do you have any Glock 17L's?" He said "no, we get them in at times but don't always have them in stock. However, I have a recently traded in Glock 34 Practical Tactical that looks almost new; let me grab it for you."
He got the gun, racked the slide and inspected it, and handed it to me. I looked at it, handed it back, and he took the slide off and showed me how it looked like it hadn't been fired by any owners. I'm not a huge Glock guy and wasn't familiar with the 34 so I asked him about the difference between it and the 17L and a regular 17. He explained the barrel/slide length (I wanted longer than a 17), trigger pull, and ported slide. Nice gun. He said "It is $519 but if you're interested I'm sure we can do a little better". I paid $500 plus tax, did the paperwork, bought some .22LR ammo, and walked out the door. With paperwork and everything I was probably only there for 20 minutes or so total, including my looking around the shop.
This is what I want in a gun store. Good selection in a nice organized place. Friendly knowledgeable sales staff who are able to quickly understand what I'm looking for and offer helpful suggestions. And good competitive pricing. That is what gets my business and will make me a regular customer. Add to that a good used gun selection and I will come back often.
I wasn't really planning on buying anything that day but I was there at the right time and the sales guy was helpful and found me something he knew would interest me because he was listening. And he made a sale because of that.
When I do order firearms online it tends to be hard-to-find items that nobody locally stocks, or just amazing price deals that are hard to pass up. CDNN Investments does a good job with their catalog and sometimes has some great deals. If my local dealer has a similar product and the price is in the ballpark, I'll definite go with the local dealer. I have a relatively local guy that primarily does FFL transfers and charges $30 for those times I do order something online.
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nofishbob
Member
\\
drsfmd wrote:
I get all three at Bud's Gunshop.
Unless you define "service" as holding a customer's hand and helping him decide what he wants.
I don't require help.
I don't want to discuss what I want or why I want it with a stranger. I am an adult, not a child.
The service Bud's provides is a quick, predictable, no hassle transaction. Exactly what I like.
Bob
drsfmd wrote:
I get all three at Bud's Gunshop.
Unless you define "service" as holding a customer's hand and helping him decide what he wants.
I don't require help.
I don't want to discuss what I want or why I want it with a stranger. I am an adult, not a child.
The service Bud's provides is a quick, predictable, no hassle transaction. Exactly what I like.
Bob
TenRingGuns.com
Member
Officially ends April 6th, expect to see price increases after that.
Almost all of the bigger distributors are getting away from drop shipping. Because of Buds and Cheaper than dirt. Expect their prices to be adjusted accordingly.
Cheaper is not always better, how many mom and pop stores are no more because of the Big Box stores? Yes your saving a few bucks but you have no customer service and nobody working for your business.
I love it when people come to me wanting a certain gun then it only takes me 10-15 minutes on the internet or phone to see if any of the distributors have it.
Cheaper is not always better, how many mom and pop stores are no more because of the Big Box stores? Yes your saving a few bucks but you have no customer service and nobody working for your business.
I love it when people come to me wanting a certain gun then it only takes me 10-15 minutes on the internet or phone to see if any of the distributors have it.
TenRingGuns.com
Member
Thank you Crazy, perfectly said.
bikemutt
Member
My observation is that mom and pop is no guarantee of good, or even mediocre customer service. While it's mostly true that big box stores are no better, at least I have no expectations of them.
Saying cheaper is not always better is all fine and good, and it may be true, but unless you can articulate a real value-add for me (or anyone) to pay more for a generally reliable commodity such as a gun, it's wishful thinking.
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