This question is in relation to open carrying a rifle. During recent demonstrations i have noticed people open carrying rifles. They are carried in a sling usually with the barrel pointing straight down the front of their body or horizontally across their bodies. I have also noticed some of the open carriers holding their rifles with their hands on the rifle, usually onthe stock with the index finger across the trigger guard and sometimes also with the offhand holding the stock. Anyway, I have no experience with open carry and live in a state that doesnt allow it except for hunting and I was just wondering what the legalities are in regard to method of open carry concerning having your hands on the the trigger guard and/or stock. I realize this is a very broad question and will depend on the particular state in some instances, and may not in fact be answerable on a broad basis because of this. Also if you are holding a rifle in that manner and yelling at or cursing out protestors who are opposing you, does that cross the line into brandishing?
Open carry question
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Given the timing of your post, I assume you were watching the mess in Charlottesville. Virginia is an open cary state, so in general a handgun in a visible holster or a long gun worn with the sling is considered legal. You are correct, the laws of each state come to play immediately on your question.
I am not a lawyer, but I am able to Google.
See http://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title18.2/chapter7/section18.2-282/
The section opens with the following:
" 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured."
There is much more, so be sure to read the entire section if you want to understand it.
As a not-lawyer, my next comments are opinion, and an attorney should clarify. The problem with a charge of brandishing is that a certain amount of the apparent intent of the firearm possessor and perception and reaction of bystanders is involved. Note the law says "in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another". Translation - a LEO might or might not consider placing hands on the firearm as brandishing, depending on the circumstances. I am pretty sure that removing a handgun from the holster or bringing a long gun off sling to hold would likely to result in a brandishing charge. Placing your hand on the holstered handgun as if ready to draw, or gripping the long gun with both hands as if ready to raise to arm, might well result in a charge of brandishing.
I am not a lawyer, but I am able to Google.
See http://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title18.2/chapter7/section18.2-282/
The section opens with the following:
" 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured."
There is much more, so be sure to read the entire section if you want to understand it.
As a not-lawyer, my next comments are opinion, and an attorney should clarify. The problem with a charge of brandishing is that a certain amount of the apparent intent of the firearm possessor and perception and reaction of bystanders is involved. Note the law says "in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another". Translation - a LEO might or might not consider placing hands on the firearm as brandishing, depending on the circumstances. I am pretty sure that removing a handgun from the holster or bringing a long gun off sling to hold would likely to result in a brandishing charge. Placing your hand on the holstered handgun as if ready to draw, or gripping the long gun with both hands as if ready to raise to arm, might well result in a charge of brandishing.
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Good Ol' Boy
Member
Since VA has been mentioned on the topic, I will add that in VA it is illegal to carry any firearm that holds more than 20 rounds. So a lot of these goobers you see on YouTube in other states carrying AR's around with a full mag, well that may not be legal in all states. It's certainly not in VA.
Actually it is legal in most of Virginia, including Charlottesville. You provided the proof of that yourself. The VCDL website, that you have listed in your sig line says this:
- State law (§18.2-287.4) prohibits the carry by a non-CHP holder of a loaded:
- semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that is
- equipped with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of centerfire ammunition
- or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer
- or equipped with a folding stock
- shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds
It then goes on to list some specific locations. Outside of those specific places, including Charlottesville, open carry of an AR with a full size mag is legal and even in the places on the list it's legal if the person has a CHP.
Good Ol' Boy
Member
The topic at hand is OC. It is illegal in VA to open carry a firearm that holds more than 20 rounds.
There are exemptions but I simply stated the law. .
Yes, I'm aware that that's the topic. You're incorrect. Click on the VCDL link in your profile and read it carefully. Open carry of a long gun that holds more than 20 rounds is only illegal in certain areas of Virginia, not statewide and even in those specific areas the prohibition doesn't apply to those with a CHP. Here's the link to the relevant law: http://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/18.2-287.4/ Read the whole thing, not just the first half of the first paragraph.
Here's the section of the VCDL website that talks about it. http://www.vcdl.org/CarryInfo
Good Ol' Boy
Member
I stand corrected. It's not "all" of VA.
Still, there's plenty of "main" area's in VA where it is not legal without exemption. I suspect we are not the only state that has such statutes. "Be aware" is what I what trying to get across.
One point a lot of people who open carry long guns seem to have trouble understanding.
A slung long gun is not a holstered or cased firearm--that means the muzzle rule is still in effect. IMO this makes the open carry of long guns problematic in terms of following the safety rules. Even muzzle up (the best option) isn't really 100% safe outdoors in populated areas for a couple of reasons. Indoors, it's a non-starter unless the muzzle rule is ignored.
A slung long gun is not a holstered or cased firearm--that means the muzzle rule is still in effect. IMO this makes the open carry of long guns problematic in terms of following the safety rules. Even muzzle up (the best option) isn't really 100% safe outdoors in populated areas for a couple of reasons. Indoors, it's a non-starter unless the muzzle rule is ignored.
Where would that be? You did see the part about CHP holders being exempted from those rules in the restricted areas, right?
Possibly not the only one, although having particular cities and/or counties having extra restrictions codified in state law is rather unusual.
Always a good idea.
Just to clarify something. I don't think open carrying a long gun like the goof balls in Charlottesville did is a good idea. I just think it's important to get the facts straight when it comes to the legality of stuff like that.
barnbwt
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"I just think it's important to get the facts straight when it comes to the legality of stuff like that."
Honestly, it's no so much the facts as what the police overseeing these events are willing to tolerate. Illegal or not, they set the rules that people will be arrested by, and that's what really governs the protester behavior. Unless you feel like being a test case, anyway. The smart move is to relegate such tactics to friendly jurisdictions, as opposed to hostile regimes (friendly as in sympathetic to your cause, not in regards to gun laws necessarily; the antifa guys have clearly been allowed to avoid compliance with certain weapons and demonstration laws in the large cities most favorable to them)
Not that I have experience in this rather foolish endeavor (lots of ultimately worthwhile things are foolish) but it seems to me;
-A rifle is rather ill-suited for use in a close-packed crowd, especially considering that use would most likely be during a 'wave' attack or similar stampede. In Texas, pistols must remain holstered while carried, but rifles may be handheld so long as no brandishing occurs. Kind of a double standard IMO, at least as far as finger-above-trigger low ready, but that's how it is
-In a tight, busy crowd, the only way to secure something is to keep it close to your body, and within your field of vision at all times. Naturally that's where the rifle ends up, vertical to further reduce the amount protruding off your person. It's harder to hang a pistol or PDW in front of you without it being a horizontal-rig, in which case holstered-muzzling is a greater concern (at least visually, if not truly a safety issue).
-To hang a rifle vertical in front of you, a single-point sling seems like the only real option, with the barrel down. This has the side benefit of providing a convenient place to rest your hands (butt of the gun, or the grip) and making it nearly impossible to 'muzzle' anyone. While Texas, at least, does not consider a two-handed grip as you describe brandishing (even with a chambered gun), you open yourself & your fellow protesters to tremendous legal risk if you do not ensure that barrel is pointed nowhere that could be interpreted as threatening. It's rather telling how few, if any, photos there are of armed protesters of any stripe exhibiting even somewhat irresponsible muzzle behavior.
-The real purpose of these rifles, in light of the first point especially, is visual impact as opposed to practical self-defense use. "Pea-cocking" if you will as a deterrent measure. It is certainly effective on certain opponents, and you do have to admit the lack of incidents involving firearms to date at these rallies is pretty impressive considering practically every other implement has been used in violence so far (fists, bottles, clubs, knives, biohazard, chemical, automobiles, and even the internet via doxxing)
Honestly, it's no so much the facts as what the police overseeing these events are willing to tolerate. Illegal or not, they set the rules that people will be arrested by, and that's what really governs the protester behavior. Unless you feel like being a test case, anyway. The smart move is to relegate such tactics to friendly jurisdictions, as opposed to hostile regimes (friendly as in sympathetic to your cause, not in regards to gun laws necessarily; the antifa guys have clearly been allowed to avoid compliance with certain weapons and demonstration laws in the large cities most favorable to them)
Not that I have experience in this rather foolish endeavor (lots of ultimately worthwhile things are foolish) but it seems to me;
-A rifle is rather ill-suited for use in a close-packed crowd, especially considering that use would most likely be during a 'wave' attack or similar stampede. In Texas, pistols must remain holstered while carried, but rifles may be handheld so long as no brandishing occurs. Kind of a double standard IMO, at least as far as finger-above-trigger low ready, but that's how it is
-In a tight, busy crowd, the only way to secure something is to keep it close to your body, and within your field of vision at all times. Naturally that's where the rifle ends up, vertical to further reduce the amount protruding off your person. It's harder to hang a pistol or PDW in front of you without it being a horizontal-rig, in which case holstered-muzzling is a greater concern (at least visually, if not truly a safety issue).
-To hang a rifle vertical in front of you, a single-point sling seems like the only real option, with the barrel down. This has the side benefit of providing a convenient place to rest your hands (butt of the gun, or the grip) and making it nearly impossible to 'muzzle' anyone. While Texas, at least, does not consider a two-handed grip as you describe brandishing (even with a chambered gun), you open yourself & your fellow protesters to tremendous legal risk if you do not ensure that barrel is pointed nowhere that could be interpreted as threatening. It's rather telling how few, if any, photos there are of armed protesters of any stripe exhibiting even somewhat irresponsible muzzle behavior.
-The real purpose of these rifles, in light of the first point especially, is visual impact as opposed to practical self-defense use. "Pea-cocking" if you will as a deterrent measure. It is certainly effective on certain opponents, and you do have to admit the lack of incidents involving firearms to date at these rallies is pretty impressive considering practically every other implement has been used in violence so far (fists, bottles, clubs, knives, biohazard, chemical, automobiles, and even the internet via doxxing)
MedWheeler
Member
Some states that would otherwise permit such carry in fact prohibit or otherwise regulate it while attending or participating in a protest, rally, or other type of public demonstration (even a parade in some cases.) Since the protests/incident in Virginia came up, I wonder if Virginia, or any of its localities, has such regulations in place.
lemaymiami
Member
One other minor issue - in this case specific to my state, Florida... and maybe other states as well.... In general, trespass is a misdemeanor - trespass while armed is a felony here in Florida.... Anyone attending a friendly local demonstration (which might just turn into a riot....) is well advised to know their state's laws about trespass and particularly whether trespass while armed is a felony - before finding out the hard way....
As a side note anyone I know that thinks it's a good idea to bring a gun to a demonstration - is probably off of my Christmas card list. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that it's probably a very bad idea, period.
As a side note anyone I know that thinks it's a good idea to bring a gun to a demonstration - is probably off of my Christmas card list. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that it's probably a very bad idea, period.
It's Brandishing, Flourishing or Menacing, depending primarily on the mood of the LEOs on scene and (to a lesser degree) their commanders. They're given plenty of discretion, including the option of inaction, until the situation escalates into a melee, providing the LSM an exciting story to sell, why the politically incorrect need policed.
The DA can easily (post facto) make the legal frame a politically expedient fit.
Creaky_Old_Cop
member
Frank...
MedWheeler
Member
^^ I agree. It started as a legal question, but is no more.
So we need to be able to sort out the laws of fifty States regarding the open carrying of firearms, determine if the open carry laws of each State distinguish between handguns and long guns, and then we need to review each State's law on brandishing/menacing/assault and mopery (sometimes referred to as being dumb in public).
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