Why Open Carry is a BAD idea.

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herrwalther

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Local story in my area so I have been following this fecal storm closely. What happened is during Black Friday sales, 2 males got in a physical argument. An 18 year old in the argument was shot while a stray round severely wounded a 12 year old girl. Mr Bradford, a 21 year old Army soldier, was shot by local police for "brandishing" a firearm in an open carry holster. The real shooter ditched the firearm in Santa's workshop and has eluded law enforcement.

Strategy takeaway, don't open carry. The common thought is you become a target for a mass shooter. Or in this case you become a target for responding police. Multiple concealed carriers were also reported in the area of this shooting as well.

https://www.al.com/news/birmingham/...boycott-of-alabama-mall-body-cam-footage.html
 
I thought the reports stated he was brandishing the firearm. Was it a holstered firearm? I cant imagine him open carrying since the galleria has a no gun policy. I may have just read the early reports and missed updated versions.
 
Rural to semi-rural area, I've witnessed open carry, thus it appears to be more prevalent. Most people apparently are not that observant as it hasn't caused panic, the instances I've noted open carriers. Is it a good option, the law allows it. Can it be problematic, yes but it is lawful. Since it is lawful then maybe the requirements for concealed carry permits should be modified so that individual's inclined to open carry would obtain a concealed carry permit as opposed to ignoring the permit/concealed carry for open carry.
 
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This is local to me too. Currently the Hoover PD report still says "brandishing" and I've heard nothing about the guy open carrying. While I don't think it's a great idea to open carry, I have done it on occasion myself (mostly transporting rifles by motorcycle) and I think it's a right that should be protected. However, I can count on one hand the number of people I have seen open carry in Birmingham in the last 5 years, and given the mall's policy on weapons, it is very unlikely that this guy was open carrying.

I like Greg Ellifritz's plan regarding CCW's response to active shooters.
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/weapon-handling-in-an-active-killer-event

If you choose to act, get your gun out of sight as soon as the threat is neutralized. Holster it. Keep your hand on the gun if you think you need to, but don’t be in a high-profile shooting stance. If you feel safe doing so, put your hands up in the air to show responding cops that you aren’t a threat. Position “Sul” is useful here too if the threat is still active. Even a modified “Sul” with the weak hand hiding the gun would be a good option. The closer the gun is to the body, the less visible it is to responding cops. If the other hand is shielding it, even better.
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In a horrible event like an active killer scene, your gun will seem like the most important piece of life saving equipment you can hold on to. It is exactly that…until the cops arrive. At some point in the engagement, the gun will do more to put you in danger than it will to protect you against the killer(s). Recognize that fact and don’t be seen standing over a pile of dead bodies with your pistol out and at the ready.
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I know it's not exactly what happened in this instance, but (as of currently available info) if this guy had his gun holstered he likely wouldn't have been shot by the cops.
 
Years ago,,, maybe. 20, in a small Texas town,,,, old Clyde, would drag his firearm with him where ever he went,, I can’t remember if it was a shotgun or a rifle. The town was so small it didn’t have a police dept, back then,,, I remember the county Sheriff saying that as long as old Clyde was on the ‘job’, the town didn’t need a police dept..
Guess it was more like 40 yrs ago,, I remember old Clyde,, had many conversations with him. He acted gruff as could be, but was always kind ot kids... knew a lot about guns, a WWII vet,,, had some stories.

the point I wish to make, is that open carry may be alright some times, and sometimes not...We just need to think with what’s between out ears, not what’s between our legs.
 
People don't open carry for tactical advantage. Unless they're way out in the sticks, most likely they are open carrying to make a political statement. (I've heard it justified as "desensitizing" the public about guns.) In my area, such "statement" open carrying is apt to be hugely counterproductive. It sensitizes rather than desensitizes the public about guns. Especially when the local soccer moms are already predisposed against guns.

Permitless open carry is legal in Virginia. I'd like to keep it that way. If we have more witless "statement" open carrying, it's going to be outlawed for sure.
 
I feel there is a direct correlation to the positive or negative reaction to open carry and the population density and homogeneity of said population. I have open carried many times but prefer to conceal carry generally speaking. However, if I am in an environment where open carry has little to no negative drawbacks and enhances usage I still open carry. Ultimately, if push comes to shove I will open carry as I see fit regardless of negative reaction but I have grown weary of the freak outs that I have been subject to. Just my .02
 
Ok, this is the Strategies, Tactics and Training Forum. Let’s keep the thread on topic for this forum.

We aren’t going to debate the pros and cons of open carry. Let’s get back to discussing how an armed person interacts safely with responding LE after a shooting incident.
 
Jeff White said:
Ok, this is the Strategies, Tactics and Training Forum. Let’s keep the thread on topic for this forum.

We aren’t going to debate the pros and cons of open carry. Let’s get back to discussing how an armed person interacts safely with responding LE after a shooting incident.
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I wish I had a good answer! I've read many articles and seen a lot of videos about just this topic. Too many times an amped up homeowner has been shot by responding officers that mistook him for the bad guy. Carrying around a sidearm in your hand at the scene of an active shooter, that's problematic to be sure. On the one hand if you're not shooting you should probably have it holstered but on the other hand he was maybe concerned about running into a wingman/trailer. Hard to know what to do.
 
This is why being a “good guy with a gun” is a lousy idea when the police show up. Most folks here will defend the notion based on 2A rights and NRA propaganda, but bottom line armed, even innocent civilians are incompatible with law enforcement. Nothing good happens to folks who are armed, even for the good, when LE shows up. Open carry is the worst idea. Concealed carry should be okay as long as the gun is truly hidden and the carrier is not playing cops and robbers.
 
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G'dale Mike said:
I thought the reports stated he was brandishing the firearm. Was it a holstered firearm? I cant imagine him open carrying since the galleria has a no gun policy. I may have just read the early reports and missed updated versions.
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The Galleria pretends to be a gun free zone. I have carried in there many times when I lived closer. I have also seen reports that many concealed carriers responded, but none of them were shot. According to multiple eye witness statements, Bradford did not have his firearm out of his holster. But Hoover PD is still reporting a brandished weapon shoot.

This is already starting out to be a HUGE race situation, which I do not want to get into for the purpose of STT. I see this as a local, fellow soldier who was shot for having a firearm. And that is no bueno to me.

Jeff White said:
We aren’t going to debate the pros and cons of open carry. Let’s get back to discussing how an armed person interacts safely with responding LE after a shooting incident.
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A problem I am seeing with this case is, he was not challenged to put the weapon down or given vocal commands by Hoover PD. If true, that is a huge fault on the side of Hoover PD and for us. If LE is not giving warnings before shooting, the safety window for someone legally carrying on an active shooter situation goes way down.

MEHavey said:
Bodycam release would help clear things up one way or the other.
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Absolutely. I don't expect it to come out anytime soon. Hoover PD is well known in this area to play hard and fast with the rules, and get away with it. It is going to be much harder this time now that they are under a national microscope.

Make no mistake, I have no problem with open carry. I, in fact, like open carry law. If open carry is legal, you are legally (in theory) protected when your cover garment rides up. And you can carry openly when outside dealing with farm, hunting, or rural tasks. I am guilty of doing that as well. Because of this case and cases that can happen, I am against open carry as a tactic, political or otherwise.
 
herrwalther said:
A problem I am seeing with this case is, he was not challenged to put the weapon down or given vocal commands by Hoover PD. If true, that is a huge fault on the side of Hoover PD and for us. If LE is not giving warnings before shooting, the safety window for someone legally carrying on an active shooter situation goes way down.
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In an active shooter situation the mission is to stop the shooter from continuing his actions. It’s not necessarily to arrest the shooter. You do not want to be visibly armed when LE responds to an active shooter. Active shooter calls are treated differently then other calls involving armed suspects.

If you have a gun in your hand when LE responds to an active shooter you will most likely be shot. Again, the mission is to stop the shooter from shooting more people.

More police officers are shot by other officers in these fratricide incidents then armed armed citizens.

The best way to avoid being shot when the police arrive is to not have a gun in your hand.
 
Jeff White said:
In an active shooter situation the mission is to stop the shooter from continuing his actions. It’s not necessarily to arrest the shooter. You do not want to be visibly armed when LE responds to an active shooter. Active shooter calls are treated differently then other calls involving armed suspects.

If you have a gun in your hand when LE responds to an active shooter you will most likely be shot. Again, the mission is to stop the shooter from shooting more people.

More police officers are shot by other officers in these fratricide incidents then armed armed citizens.

The best way to avoid being shot when the police arrive is to not have a gun in your hand.
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All accurate. With a caveat, if the firearm wasn't in Bradford's hand, then he was shot for no reason. All while the shooter, as of right now, is still at large. I have worked with many LE agencies. And the vast majority prefer to arrest an active shooter for many reasons, such as save on UOF paperwork. Based on what has come out so far, Bradford was not holding a firearm in his hand, which would make this a bad LEO shoot.
 
I think it is time for police to understand that they carry a gun to protect themselves, not to shoot at people running away. Yes, the police have a duty to catch the criminal leaving, but they do not have to use deadly force for that function. Follow, chase, and get description, yes. Shoot at a retreating person or vehicle is not OK. The officer committed homicide needs to go to a grand jury and the department needs to also take corrective action.
 
1. Is there actually any evidence that he was carrying openly? I haven't been able to find anything that says he was. The only picture I could find of the aftermath of the shooting does not show any obvious holster.

2. Is there actually any evidence that he did not have his gun in his hand? I haven't been able to find anything that says he did not--currently reports say he did have his gun in his hand when he was shot.

So this incident does not appear to be about open carry at all. It sounds like it is about not having a gun in your hand when police respond to a shooting.

If there is any credible evidence that this is about open carry and/or that the shooter did not have the gun in his hand when he was shot, it needs to be posted. Otherwise, given that the title, most of the original post and a lot of the initial responses don't seem to jibe well with the available information, this thread will be closed.
 
I don't think all the facts were in when this thread was opened (unless it was opened solely to be yet another "OC vs. CC" argument, in which case facts are not necessary.)
 
Open carry is legal here and has been forever. Philosophically I’m glad that it is, but you won’t catch me doing it. Why paint a target on your back?
 
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