Open Carry Unsafe?
- Thread starter runswithscissors
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Bear Gulch
Member
Yes they do and they know how to use them. Here in Idaho a gun wouldn't get much of a look.
Browns Fan
Member
I wouldnt open carry even if it were legal here. Why? BG interpretation of open carry:
Shoot me first, because I can shoot back!
Shoot me first, because I can shoot back!
Vern Humphrey
Member
There are people who routinely carry openly. And they don't have that problem. They're called "cops."
OR...
Hmmm... That one's no victim. Better look a little longer for someone that won't make a fuss when I prey on them and demand their stuff...
BG's may not be the smartest examples of humanity extant but they're smart enough to take the path of least resistance. That means they don't assault someone who is obviously not of the victim mindset.
I've read that robbers are more afraid of an armed citizen than they are of the police so why would they take on someone who they can see is armed if there are easier pickings on down the road?
In my not so educated nor experienced opinion the only time open carry might create a disadvantage is in the hypothetical situation where a determined armed group bursts into a business, quickly sizes up the situation and has preplanned to take out armed guards and any armed citizens they see. In that one case carrying openly might cause one problems.
W Turner
Member
Here in Alabama, it is technically legal to open carry, but most municipalities and their LEO's aren't in favor of it. Many cities have a city ordnance against it.
I would like to have the option of open carry and do excercise this option on my property and the property of people I have received permission from. I also live in a semi-rural area and gunfire is not uncommon on the weekends.
W
I would like to have the option of open carry and do excercise this option on my property and the property of people I have received permission from. I also live in a semi-rural area and gunfire is not uncommon on the weekends.
W
Open carry
If and when I decide to open carry here in Michigan Where it is legal. I or anyone doesn't turn your awarness OFF. It someone is in my zone of uncomfortableness say 3-5 feet. If I'm CCW or other wise ( say unarmed or open carry) I'm aware. I move or just rotate to place my body between the weapon and the person, but in a casual way. I make sure I don't place myself in situations that that may develop. My gun next to the exit door as a simple example or standing in a line with a questionable persons way too close to me.
On open carry, I would change to a holster with a retention strap and that would slow or stop someone from mearly grabing and shooting or running. In eather case it may give me time to bring forth my back up weapon, not necessarly a second gun but could be.
Situational awareness all of the time.
If and when I decide to open carry here in Michigan Where it is legal. I or anyone doesn't turn your awarness OFF. It someone is in my zone of uncomfortableness say 3-5 feet. If I'm CCW or other wise ( say unarmed or open carry) I'm aware. I move or just rotate to place my body between the weapon and the person, but in a casual way. I make sure I don't place myself in situations that that may develop. My gun next to the exit door as a simple example or standing in a line with a questionable persons way too close to me.
On open carry, I would change to a holster with a retention strap and that would slow or stop someone from mearly grabing and shooting or running. In eather case it may give me time to bring forth my back up weapon, not necessarly a second gun but could be.
Situational awareness all of the time.
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benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
If you're talking about hiking out in the boonies or something, probably loss of tactical surprise would be the main drawback.
If you're talking about carrying a firearm in the presence of people you don't know, I personally feel it's a poor choice if you can CCW instead.
Reason number 1--retention issues. Police officers who open-carry are typically issued security holsters that are supposed to be very resistant to a gun grab, and still about 20% of police officers who are shot are shot with their own gun, as I recall. Meaning that just because the police do it doesn't mean they don't have weapons-retention issues.
Reason number 2--loss of tactical surprise. Should be self-explanatory.
Reason number 3--getting you targeted first in an active-shooter scenario. If you are in a situation in which a criminal is just sizing people up, yes, he might give you a pass if he saw you were carrying. But I can think of a lot of scenarios in which open carry could make it easier for a criminal intent on an attack to plan around the fact that you are armed (such as by ambushing you instead of approaching you with a threat).
I've open-carried before while out in the woods, and once while sailing alone in a really, really deserted area, but for most circumstances I think CCW is a much better option all around.
If you're talking about carrying a firearm in the presence of people you don't know, I personally feel it's a poor choice if you can CCW instead.
Reason number 1--retention issues. Police officers who open-carry are typically issued security holsters that are supposed to be very resistant to a gun grab, and still about 20% of police officers who are shot are shot with their own gun, as I recall. Meaning that just because the police do it doesn't mean they don't have weapons-retention issues.
Reason number 2--loss of tactical surprise. Should be self-explanatory.
Reason number 3--getting you targeted first in an active-shooter scenario. If you are in a situation in which a criminal is just sizing people up, yes, he might give you a pass if he saw you were carrying. But I can think of a lot of scenarios in which open carry could make it easier for a criminal intent on an attack to plan around the fact that you are armed (such as by ambushing you instead of approaching you with a threat).
I've open-carried before while out in the woods, and once while sailing alone in a really, really deserted area, but for most circumstances I think CCW is a much better option all around.
Smurfslayer
Member
This "retention" issue - about 20% and using retention holsters.
We must all be missing something - These officers are using retention holsters, but being shot with their own guns. Just on the surface this suggests that they're being overpowered AFTER the gun is drawn or presented; in such a case concealed carry would be even worse since it would take that much longer to present.
"But I can think of a lot of scenarios in which open carry could make it easier for a criminal intent on an attack to plan around the fact that you are armed (such as by ambushing you instead of approaching you with a threat)."
Ok, but can you actually come up with some that aren't solely a product of somebody's imagination ? IOW, they actually happened...
We must all be missing something - These officers are using retention holsters, but being shot with their own guns. Just on the surface this suggests that they're being overpowered AFTER the gun is drawn or presented; in such a case concealed carry would be even worse since it would take that much longer to present.
"But I can think of a lot of scenarios in which open carry could make it easier for a criminal intent on an attack to plan around the fact that you are armed (such as by ambushing you instead of approaching you with a threat)."
Ok, but can you actually come up with some that aren't solely a product of somebody's imagination ? IOW, they actually happened...
Well Regulated
Member
Produce the Body
This is a scientific test. We need to test our hypothesis that open carry makes you more of a target or there is a better chance of the criminal getting your gun.
We have a lot of imaginative people on this board so I am sure you can find a link to a news story where a person open carrying was in line at a bank when criminals entered and singled the person open carrying out and shot them. Can the people who fear that that this will happen point me to a case where it actually happened? We only need just one case/body.
Now I need people who have opened carried at a bank, store or restaurant and did not get shot by armed criminals running in and shooting them tells us their story or point to somebody who has opened carried in one of these places and did not get shot.
We compare the results to find out just how often armed men run into banks, stores etc. and single out people open carrying and shoot them. This will help us find out whether that scenario is an Myth or a real possibility. We will then be the Myth Busters for this Open Carry Urban Legend
This is a scientific test. We need to test our hypothesis that open carry makes you more of a target or there is a better chance of the criminal getting your gun.
We have a lot of imaginative people on this board so I am sure you can find a link to a news story where a person open carrying was in line at a bank when criminals entered and singled the person open carrying out and shot them. Can the people who fear that that this will happen point me to a case where it actually happened? We only need just one case/body.
Now I need people who have opened carried at a bank, store or restaurant and did not get shot by armed criminals running in and shooting them tells us their story or point to somebody who has opened carried in one of these places and did not get shot.
We compare the results to find out just how often armed men run into banks, stores etc. and single out people open carrying and shoot them. This will help us find out whether that scenario is an Myth or a real possibility. We will then be the Myth Busters for this Open Carry Urban Legend
M
mrhuckins
Guest
Another thought...
My FFL is also a LEO, and he recently talked me out of buying a Glock, because he was informed that the police officers somewhere (I think he said it was in New York someplace) were rquired to carry with "one in the pipe." When the department started carrying Glocks, several officers were shooting themselves in the leg or foot when holstering/drawing their weapons. I'm not saying that Glocks are unsafe, I'm just wondering how much of that 20% figure is from the officers shooting themselves, instead of someone taking the officers weapon and then using the weapon against the officer.
My FFL is also a LEO, and he recently talked me out of buying a Glock, because he was informed that the police officers somewhere (I think he said it was in New York someplace) were rquired to carry with "one in the pipe." When the department started carrying Glocks, several officers were shooting themselves in the leg or foot when holstering/drawing their weapons. I'm not saying that Glocks are unsafe, I'm just wondering how much of that 20% figure is from the officers shooting themselves, instead of someone taking the officers weapon and then using the weapon against the officer.
Browns Fan
Member
Quote:
"There are people who routinely carry openly. And they don't have that problem. They're called "cops."
My point is that I remember reading something Ayoob wrote on the subject and he referenced a true story where 2 BGs were robbing people in this one state (not sure which). They were in this rural area and saw this farmer riding a tractor in the field open carrying from the road before they drove onto his land. They shot him with a rifle and killed him before they assaulted his wife and robbed her.
I wannt to be the one with the element of surprise on his side in a goblin encounter.
"There are people who routinely carry openly. And they don't have that problem. They're called "cops."
My point is that I remember reading something Ayoob wrote on the subject and he referenced a true story where 2 BGs were robbing people in this one state (not sure which). They were in this rural area and saw this farmer riding a tractor in the field open carrying from the road before they drove onto his land. They shot him with a rifle and killed him before they assaulted his wife and robbed her.
I wannt to be the one with the element of surprise on his side in a goblin encounter.
Kamicosmos
Member
So, because it hasn't happened, it won't?
Bear Gulch
Member
I think that open carry takes some choices away form you. You had really better be committed to drawing and going to town if the need arises.
Well Regulated
Member
Elephants could possibly attack and kill me. The likelyhood is quite small despite the fact the Circus was just recently down the street. Being fearful of hypotheticals we conjure up is a good way to stay home everynight in fear and panic.
Kamicosmos
Member
You see that video of the elephant that went bezerk at the circus a few years ago? Killed several people, and the cops and townspeople finally dropped it in the street after shooting it a whole hell of a lot. I damn near cried watching that animal go down.
My point is, why make yourself a target? I'm not saying never open carry out of fear of being targeted by badguys...just exercise caution. Everyone here seems to think that the badguys are just blundering idiots and will turn tail and run at the mere sight of A Citizen with a Gun (or the racking of a 12 )gauge and that we are some kind of uber supermen/women cause We Carry A Gun.
Got news for ya: Even Superman kept his Suit under Clark Kent's clothes for a reason.
What If
You guys are just playing WHAT IF. I have open carried hundreds of times, because the law requires it, and no one has ever tried or even joked about taking my gun away. When a BG comes in with a drawn gun you are already targeted and at a disadvantage. Open carrying or not you are not going to out draw him. My suggestion is to take some training and learn what to do in a given situation. Situational awareness is you best friend, avoid the confrontation.
You guys are just playing WHAT IF. I have open carried hundreds of times, because the law requires it, and no one has ever tried or even joked about taking my gun away. When a BG comes in with a drawn gun you are already targeted and at a disadvantage. Open carrying or not you are not going to out draw him. My suggestion is to take some training and learn what to do in a given situation. Situational awareness is you best friend, avoid the confrontation.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The 20% statistic refers to officer fatalities, i.e. 20% of officers fatally shot are killed with their own weapon.
Some undoubtedly occur due to disarms of an already-drawn gun. Some may occur due to failure of the holster to retain the gun (retention holsters can probably be defeated if the criminal learned the trick in Prison University). Some probably involve long guns. But many probably do involve the criminal grabbing the holstered firearm.
FWIW, I'm not significantly slower drawing from a concealed holster under a cover garment than I am drawing from a holster on the outside of my clothing. So to me, the disadvantage of CCW vs open is small and the theoretical advantages (in my opinion) are great. I do NOT want to have a high profile, anywhere I go, and open carry out of uniform gives you a very high profile.
True. But if said BG comes in with a drawn gun and you have a concealed gun, you may be ignored to some extent. If said BG comes in with a drawn gun and you have a gun in plain sight, you (IMO) are more likely to be perceived as an immediate lethal threat and summarily shot. Admittedly an unlikely scenario, but IMO in this type of situation open carry provides no advantages and numerous disadvantages.
Agreed.
BigRedBowtie
Member
I went "open" just last night, to the auto parts store. Not a word was said to me. The Missus called while I was out, asked me to grab some stuff at the grocery... Well, I didn't have a cover with me, so I just went in. Smile and nod here, "Hi" or "How ya' doin'" there, and I made my way to the butter and back without issue. After I got home and got the grill started, she needed some tin foil (No, NOT for hats!) so I headed back out. Again, without issue.
At any rate, after I leave, I doubt there was mass-panic over the "guy with a gun"... 'specially not a classic like the .45 with nice rosie grips in some fine brommeland leather! People need to understand that we are normal, happy, smiling, polite, kind and gentle people- We just choose to take responsibility for our own safety. I open carry on a fairly regular basis, (couple times a week or so) mostly just in places where I'm in-and-out, and mostly places that are "replaceable" should anyone get crabby with my armed status.
Vern Humphrey
Member
A lot of the arguments I see here are from supposition. There's a simple reality check we can apply -- IF open carry is a problem, it would be a problem to cops.
IF cops have a problem with open carry, they wouldn't carry openly (nor wear uniforms, either.)
Police have to do things ordinary citizens don't -- such as come to grips with suspects. And even then, it appears open carry is not such a problem that they abandon it.
Now, why do we need Concealed Carry? -- so some anal-retentive jerk won't accuse us of "concealing" a gun which is really being carried openly.
Why do we need Open Carry? -- so some anal-retentive jerk won't accuse us of "displaying" a gun which is really being carried concealed.
IF cops have a problem with open carry, they wouldn't carry openly (nor wear uniforms, either.)
Police have to do things ordinary citizens don't -- such as come to grips with suspects. And even then, it appears open carry is not such a problem that they abandon it.
Now, why do we need Concealed Carry? -- so some anal-retentive jerk won't accuse us of "concealing" a gun which is really being carried openly.
Why do we need Open Carry? -- so some anal-retentive jerk won't accuse us of "displaying" a gun which is really being carried concealed.
runswithscissors
Member
I don't open carry becuase I like it
For those of you who don't like to open carry or would prefer to CCW, I agree with you. The reason I open carry is becuase in VA it is required by law in places that have allow alcohol consumption on site. So I am left with the choice of no gun or open carry. I'd rather open carry.
For those of you who don't like to open carry or would prefer to CCW, I agree with you. The reason I open carry is becuase in VA it is required by law in places that have allow alcohol consumption on site. So I am left with the choice of no gun or open carry. I'd rather open carry.
Commissar Gribb
Member
I've never carried before, and If I did- it would probably be my browning in the shoulder holster. And I would most likely NOT carry cocked and locked.
No_Brakes23
Member
When I was stationed aboard MCAS Yuma, I occaisionally open carried, (Off-base, obviously.) Not to "show-off" or feel big and bad, but almost everytime, it was because I was hunting or on my way to the range.
One time I went to Wally world to pick up some ammo, and I think all of one person looked at me.
On New Year's Eve 1999, I got pulled over by the AZ HP (They were looking for drunks.) The LEO didn't say a thing about the Glock on the passenger seat.
I support open carry, and while I agree that CCW is preferable, I will take open carry over no carry anyday.
One time I went to Wally world to pick up some ammo, and I think all of one person looked at me.
On New Year's Eve 1999, I got pulled over by the AZ HP (They were looking for drunks.) The LEO didn't say a thing about the Glock on the passenger seat.
I support open carry, and while I agree that CCW is preferable, I will take open carry over no carry anyday.
dasmi
Member
I'll be traveling in Arizona soon, and I plan on open carrying my Service Six, or maybe something else, if I can come up with some money. I don't have an Arizona CCW (I'm from California) and I don't want to break the law by concealing, so open carry it is. I'll let you know how it goes.
I called the Maricopa County Sheriff's Department, and spoke with a woman in the Concealed Weapons Division, who told me that as long as the butt of your handgun is visible, it is considered a legal open carry.
KONY
Member
I wish I could add something to this thread that has not already been mentioned but I cannot. However, I will repeat that in Virginia, open carry in businesses where alcohol can be consumed is THE LAW. Until this changes, we will continue to obey it.
That said, Smurfslayer posted the address of his website containing a nifty log of his open carry experiences (I can personally verify the authenticity of a good number of these entries). This data supports the notion that open carry does NOT result in mass panic and invitations to violence. Just in case you missed it before here's the address again:
www.bighammer.net
If you have similar and/or "better" data (besides uncited articles) supporting the opposite conclusion, then please share. IMHO, a basic tenet of being an intellectual is to be willing to change one's opinion based on new data.
That said, Smurfslayer posted the address of his website containing a nifty log of his open carry experiences (I can personally verify the authenticity of a good number of these entries). This data supports the notion that open carry does NOT result in mass panic and invitations to violence. Just in case you missed it before here's the address again:
www.bighammer.net
If you have similar and/or "better" data (besides uncited articles) supporting the opposite conclusion, then please share. IMHO, a basic tenet of being an intellectual is to be willing to change one's opinion based on new data.
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