P365XL Arrived - Review of problems

[Alllen Bundy]

I just received a new P365XL with the new slide where the rear sight is inserted into a dovetail grove in the slide itself instead of being mounted on a removable plate like the older versions.

It felt funny the first time that I racked it in the gun shop. After solvent cleaning the return spring assembly the problem was obvious. SIg lathe turned the guide rod but did NOT polish out the lathe turning marks!!! You can hear the noise that the lathe turning marks make and you can also feel the extra resistance as you rack the slide. It's cringeworthy!

It's just like the Rival Arms guide rod that I previously wrote about:
Recoil Spring Assemblies, Sig vs Rival Arms/ISMI for P365/X/SAS
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...sig-vs-rival-arms-ismi-for-p365-x-sas.892594/

I plan to disassemble the RSA and polish the guide rod. Yes, it will remove the oxide coating, but the spring rubbing against the guide rod WILL wear off the oxide coating anyway. I'll depend upon the lube to keep the guide rod from rusting

Also, the end of the spring at one end of the guide rod was NOT cut cleanly and is instead bent and digging into the guide rod end. I'm sure that the end screw is Locitied in place and will need heat to remove the end screw.

As with my P365, I am only going to use the stock recoil spring at the range. I am going to buy a Rival Arms stainless steel RSA with a more reliable ISMI recoil spring, polish the stainless steel guide rod and reassemble it, and use that for carry only.

The flat trigger FEELS HORRIBLE! You can feel it erratically grabbing and chattering as you pull the trigger. I'm not going to try to "break it in". I will just polish the trigger linkage contact points as before. My P365 with it's curved trigger is smooth as can be.

I did measure and the curved trigger does indeed have more room to fit a gloved finger inside the trigger guard than with the flat trigger.

I haven't removed the triggers to compare them yet, but from the photos that I have seen the upper part of the trigger appears to be identical and it's only the lower part of the trigger that is either flat or curved. I'm going to make a prediction that if I pull both triggers at the very tip, the required trigger pull force will be nearly identical. I believe that the main difference between the triggers is that the flat trigger allows you to pull further out on the trigger thereby creating more leverage. The curved trigger moves your finger closer to the middle and you will have less leverage to pull the trigger. I'll do some before polishing trigger pull force measurements as well as after polishing measurements. Polishing the P365 trigger linkage contact points didn't appear to affect the required trigger pull force at all. It just made the trigger pull more smoothly.

As I expected, the stripper rail is rough and needs to be polished. I'll be measuring the racking force required before and after the polishing, so this time I'll have some real measured numbers instead of a subjective "it's easier to rack after polishing". It turns out that a guy at the gun shop carries a P365X and he also polished the stripper rail in his P365X.

Likewise, the breech face, the left adjacent wall to the breech face, and the underside of the extractor claw need polishing to make it easier for the slide to return to battery. FYI, polishing the breech face also makes it easier to clean.

It also appears that the striker assembly only uses one spring and does NOT have the return spring, previously used, that pulls the striker backward and moves the firing pin behind the breech face. It doesn't make much sense to me that they removed this return spring. It would appear that they are mostly depending upon inertia from the firing pin bouncing off of the primer to move the striker backward. If anyone knows why Sig eliminated this return spring, please share your information with us.

I have heard claims that Sig changed the recess inside the grip module, but I haven't seen any internal differences between the P365 grip module that I got in October 2020, or in the two XL grip modules that I bought, or in the grip module that came on my new P365XL. Maybe it was pre-2020 grip modules that were different. As before, I'll be gluing in 2 oz of pure tungsten welding electrodes inside the rear of the grip module to improve the balance when the magazine is low on ammo.

For better or worse, the disconnector now appears to have a black Nitron finish, Previously it was bare stainless steel. I'll take some friction measurements between the two styles of disconnectors.

The sear also appears to have a black Nitron finish, whereas before it was bare metal.

Other than the flat trigger, the rest of the FCU appears to be the same.

The three 12 rd magazines that came with the Tac Pac are made in USA and look identical to my older magazines. However, the lettering and numbering is stamped a little bit more deeply.

On the plus side, Sig has improved the trigger guard retention system significantly. The original P365 Tac Pac holster was so bad that with the retention set at maximum, inverting the holster and giving it a very light shake would allow the pistol to drop out of the holster. My P365 fell out of the Sig holster when the holster was horizontal. I had to add an external spring to the old style holster to increase the retention significantly.

Of course they had to make the holster 1/2" longer to accommodate the longer P365XL slide. But they substantially increased the height of the lip that goes over the trigger guard to retain the pistol inside the holster. The trigger guard retention can be set significantly higher now. It would appear that I'm not the only person that had issues with the original P365 Tac Pac holster.

 

[red rick]

First warning sign , it felt funny the first time that I racked it in the gun store .

 

[The Glockodile]

Just throwing this little addendum in for kicks.

It’s a three - stage trigger!

There’s a very noticeable, gritty “second stage” before the “third stage trigger break.”

Like this?

 

[trackskippy]

First warning sign , it felt funny the first time that I racked it in the gun store .

Ive learned to pay close to that as well. Things rarely get better once you get them home, no matter what that third "gun head" of yours keeps telling you in the shop while youre fondling it.

 

[JR24]

First warning sign , it felt funny the first time that I racked it in the gun store .

Agree, I’d like have asked for a different model at that point. Especially with some of the Sig QC stories I’ve heard.

Both of my XLs slides are smooth and my carry one has a beautiful smooth trigger. The range/dry fire one is a little gritty, but I got it used in a trade I couldn’t turn down anyway, so I was less discerning.

Doesn’t affect it at the range though, both shoot great in my hands. Though, to be fair, doing a lot of my dry fire work with a heavy HK DA trigger means most “bad” triggers don’t slow me down, rather than tinker I like to just adapt and overcome.

 

[kidneyboy]

I'm curious why you bought this in the first place. It sounds from your post that you were expecting to have issues from the start.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

I'm curious why you bought this in the first place. It sounds from your post that you were expecting to have issues from the start.

Because after you deal with the issues that the P365 series has it's a good platform. The P365XL is also a $600 assembly line gun, not a $6,000 gun built by craftsmen. Most of it's issues are finishing issues that can be dealt with using a little bit of elbow grease. A bit of tailoring of the grip module and magazine floor plates with some sandpaper and it fits my hand like a glove.

Both of my XLs slides are smooth and my carry one has a beautiful smooth trigger.

I seriously doubt that the triggers were smooth right out of the box. The trigger linkage bar is made of a piece of stamped metal and it is the rough edge of the linkage bar that contacts the sear. This is where most of the grittiness of a new P365 trigger comes from. The grittiness will reduce significantly after firing or dry firing numerous times. But the trigger becomes smoother yet if you polish all of the trigger linkage contact points.

Neither slide rails of my P365 or P365XL were rough as received. The issue is with the recoil spring assembly. Could I have been the only person that received a recoil spring with a guide rod that wasn't polished? It's possible, but I doubt it. It's also possible that SIg has multliple suppliers for this RSA and some may be smoother than others. But It's more likely that most people just shrug off the roughness to needing break-in. Or they don't even notice the roughness.

Many people have NO idea that the P365 series pistol is extremely difficult to rack over a magazine loaded to capacity, because that is something that you would normally not do unless you pulled the trigger and it went click with no boom. Either you forgot to chamber a round or there is a dud cartridge in the chamber and you need to rack the slide. And some people that noticed this problem did not realize that the cure was as simple as less than 10 minutes of wet sanding the stripper rail to smooth out the grinding marks.

I'll also bet that most people don't know about the P365 series slide jamming feature. When reinstalling the slide the takedown lever should be in the 5:30 to 6:30 position. But if they don't keep a little thumb pressure on the takedown lever it and the lever moves into the 4:00 to 5:00 position the slide will go on fairly easy to a point and then jam up and be extremely difficult to remove.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Like this?

Actually, once you polish the trigger linkage contact points you can feel 4 stages of the trigger. At first the trigger spring begins to bend. But the spring also rotates in position until part of the spring contacts the FCU and the spring continues bending. Then the FCU slides backwards inside the grip module about 0.010". Then the trigger hits the wall and pulls smoothly until it breaks. But if you don't polish the trigger linkage contact points you won't be able to feel these stages through the grittiness.

 

[The Glockodile]

But if you don't polish the trigger linkage contact points you won't be able to feel these stages through the grittiness.

Think I’ll drop mine in sand before each range session - need a consistent pull each time, for muscle memory

 

[JR24]

I seriously doubt that the triggers were smooth right out of the box. The trigger linkage bar is made of a piece of stamped metal and it is the rough edge of the linkage bar that contacts the sear. This is where most of the grittiness of a new P365 trigger comes from. The grittiness will reduce significantly after firing or dry firing numerous times. But the trigger becomes smoother yet if you polish all of the trigger linkage contact points.

Not my experience with either my 365xl, or the 365 I had early. Both had nice triggers out of the box.

Subjective, of course, since my definition of a nice smooth trigger is clearly different than yours.

Many people have NO idea that the P365 series pistol is extremely difficult to rack over a magazine loaded to capacity

Also not my experience, very easy to rack with a full mag or do a quick chamber check, even with two fingers. I also don’t find 365 mags, regardless of size, difficult to load to capacity. I know some folks have said that, and I recall with the first one I had I noted, specifically, I was surprised how reasonable it was to load considering the size and capacity.

 

[red rick]

I handled one at my local gun store a few months ago and the one I handled had the best striker fired triggers that I have tried . I would call it almost too light for a conceal carry pistol . I didn’t notice anything strange when I racked the slide either . The only thing that I questioned was if the trigger was to light for me .

 

[Balrog]

Obsessing over trigger when dry firing is usually inconsequential and translates into nothing when you are firing the gun, especially when firing under the pressure of time. You just don't have time to appreciate a bit of grit or sponginess or anything else. All that you can appreciate is the pull weight.

I like the flat trigger of the XL better than the curved trigger of the standard P365, but I assume that is just personal preference.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Obsessing over trigger when dry firing is usually inconsequential and translates into nothing when you are firing the gun, especially when firing under the pressure of time. You just don't have time to appreciate a bit of grit or sponginess or anything else. All that you can appreciate is the pull weight.

It is my intention to give myself every possible advantage and eliminate any possible irritation that could possibly distract me in a self defense situation. A lot of little improvements can add up to a noticeable improvement.

I like the flat trigger of the XL better than the curved trigger of the standard P365, but I assume that is just personal preference.

Now that I have a P365 with a curved trigger and a P365XL with a flat trigger to compare, it's my intent to find out if there are any real measurable differences between the flat and curved trigger. But even if I prefer the feel of the flat trigger I will still use the curved trigger because there is more room inside the trigger guard for a gloved finger with a curved trigger than with a flat trigger. This I have already measured.

 

[JR24]

It is my intention to give myself every possible advantage and eliminate any possible irritation that could possibly distract me in a self defense situation. A lot of little improvements can add up to a noticeable improvement.

Does a little smoothing actually help you get a better time on a FAST, Bill or similar drill?

Slow fire, absolutely, I get that, but I personally don’t notice if it’s anything dynamic.

Then again, I typically like stock Glock triggers so what do I know

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Does a little smoothing actually help you get a better time on a FAST, Bill or similar drill?

A smooth trigger couldn't hurt and it might help. Plus, smoothing out the trigger bar means much less wear on the sear contact point. In a P365 series, any wear on the sear will cause a timing shift between the the striker safety and the sear releasing the striker. Smooth parts contacting each other result in less wear than rough parts contacting each other. Could there be enough wear on the sear and trigger linkage that it causes timing failure between the sear and the safety lever? Probably not. But a smooth trigger bar contact point against the sear couldn't hurt and it might help.

Slow fire, absolutely, I get that, but I personally don’t notice if it’s anything dynamic.

You might not notice a difference, but what if a smoother trigger gave you a 5% accuracy advantage? A smooth trigger couldn't hurt and might help.

The 2 oz of weight that I've added inside the handgrip significantly improves the balance and eliminates most of the top heavy floppiness of my P365X when it is low on ammunition. Will it improve my accuracy? Who knows? But it couldn't hurt and might help. The grip weight SHOULD theoretically reduce muzzle flip to some degree. I think it take the edge off of the muzzle flip. But that could easily be the placebo effect on my part. But it couldn't hurt and might help.

Most of the finishing work and modifications that I've done has taken much less time to do than actually write about it and debate.

The only seriously time consuming modification that I've done was gluing the tungsten rods together and then grinding them to shape to fit inside the grip module. But that is what you do when you listen to a podcast.

Everything else took so little time that why would you NOT do the finishing work and modifications IF you have the mechanical ability to do so?

Slightly radiusing the sharp corners on the beavertail allows the web between my thumb and forefinger to glide over the beavertail instead of getting hung up on it. I'd rather spend 10 minutes radiusing the corners of the beavertail than possibly screwing up a draw when it really matters.

I can't afford a $6,000 pistol built by a craftsman. But I can afford a $600 assembly line pistol and use a little elbow grease to finish it to the best of my ability.

I also get the satisfaction of knowing that I've done everything humanly possible to make my pistol perform the best that it possibly can.

 

[Balrog]

Does a little smoothing actually help you get a better time on a FAST, Bill or similar drill?

Slow fire, absolutely, I get that, but I personally don’t notice if it’s anything dynamic.

Then again, I typically like stock Glock triggers so what do I know

Ok. I don’t wear gloves. The amount of space available in the trigger guard is therefore fine.

I understand wanting to make the gun better, but am more confident with Sign’s engineering and machining than I am with dremeling in the garage. Again, this is personal preference and other opinions are fine.

 

[powermad]

You could just shoot it.

You seem to spend more time agonizing over the "imperfections" than shooting them.
Actually shooting them on a regular basis will be far more beneficial than whittling away at them.

But that advice has been given numerous times to you already over the last couple of years.

 

[JR24]

Ok. I don’t wear gloves. The amount of space available in the trigger guard is therefore fine.

I understand wanting to make the gun better, but am more confident with Sign’s engineering and machining than I am with dremeling in the garage. Again, this is personal preference and other opinions are fine.

Guessing you misquoted here.

 

[JR24]

You might not notice a difference, but what if a smoother trigger gave you a 5% accuracy advantage? A smooth trigger couldn't hurt and might help.

Well, I’ve compared plenty of guns and triggers side by side and, for me, a Glock 19 doesn’t perform even 5% worse than my EDC X9 which has an exemplary trigger and reset. As examples, I’ve reached the point where the limiter is the guy behind the gun.

YMMV of course, but as has been noted IMO the best mod you can do to a trigger is send a few thousand rounds down range and truly learn it.

 

[trackskippy]

Im betting in any kind of serious situation, the last thing youre going to be thinking about is the trigger.

And if your focus is on the trigger, Im also betting youre not going to be hitting what youll want to be hitting. Much anyway.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

I understand wanting to make the gun better, but am more confident with Sign’s engineering and machining than I am with dremeling in the garage..

FYI, I've never used a Dremel tool on my pistol. Any polishing work that I've done has been by hand where it is much easier to control what you are doing than with a Dremel tool where one slip could cause serious problems.

Sig's engineering? You mean the P320's that would fire when dropped? Or how about thew new P320-XTEN where the magazine follower jams and the bullets and fall out of the magazine?

I've seen and corrected way too many engineering mistakes in my career to automatically trust any manufacturer to get eh job done right the first time. Not to mention the corners they cut to increase profits.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Im betting in any kind of serious situation, the last thing youre going to be thinking about is the trigger.

And if your focus is on the trigger, Im also betting youre not going to be hitting what youll want to be hitting. Much anyway.

The point is to eliminate any possible distraction BEFORE any self defense situation occurs. Why settle for working just okay instead of working great?

 

[Alllen Bundy]

You seem to spend more time agonizing over the "imperfections" than shooting them.

I shoot as often as time and money allow. And when I have the time but not the money I work on improving my firearms and carry methods. I also have the skills to perform the work to improve my arms, so why would I not?

 

[Balrog]

FYI, I've never used a Dremel tool on my pistol. Any polishing work that I've done has been by hand where it is much easier to control what you are doing than with a Dremel tool where one slip could cause serious problems.

Sig's engineering? You mean the P320's that would fire when dropped? Or how about thew new P320-XTEN where the magazine follower jams and the bullets and fall out of the magazine?

I've seen and corrected way too many engineering mistakes in my career to automatically trust any manufacturer to get eh job done right the first time. Not to mention the corners they cut to increase profits.

Your skill and knowledge should be commended. I am surprised you would even own an Sig considering what you have pointed out on the models we were not talking about.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Your skill and knowledge should be commended. I am surprised you would even own an Sig considering what you have pointed out on the models we were not talking about.

If you look hard enough you can find problems and or better ways to do things with almost any product. The Sig P365 platform is basically sound. But it could stand to use some finishing work and tailoring to fit my hand.