Paul Gomez on 9mm vs .45

[Teachu2]

In my wild and woolly past, I have had numerous opportunities to observe gunshot wounds. If asked "Would you rather be shot with a 9mm, .38, .357M, .40, or .45acp?" my answer is "No."

Every one of these rounds can cause fatal wounds. It is far more critical to choose a weapon that you can shoot well, carry comfortably, and have complete confidence in. Over the years, I've carried a S&W .38 Airweight, a S&W M66 2.5" .357, a S&W M27 6" .357 (I'm a big guy!), and a Colt M1911 5" .45acp. I am now transitioning to a Glock 30, which I shoot very well - it fits my hands well, and I'm very confident in it.

My wife, OTOH, started with a LC9 and found it to be a poor fit. She is getting a S&W M&P 9c next week. She shoots the rental one better than any other that she tried, and enjoys it enough to practice a lot with it. The LC9 will become my pocket carry, as I shoot it just fine.

"Everything else being equal" NEVER IS. Experienced shooters have opinions based on their experience, and have arrived at what they feel is the best choice for them - but that may not be the best choice for someone else. If either the 9mm or .45acp cartridges worked for everyone, the 10mm would not have been developed in the way it was - and the .40 would not have furthered that quest when the 10mm failed to be the Universal Perfect Cartridge. There is no such cartridge, and never will be. The diversity of shooters makes a one-fits-all cartridge impossible.

Bigger is better (unless it's too big) and more is better (if they're big enough) and more, bigger and faster is better still (unless you fail to hit the target).

For me, being a XXL-sized guy, comfortably shooting a double-stack .45acp rapidly is not an issue. California further simplified the decision with 10-round magazines, negating the 9mm numerical advantage. This led me to look for a 10+1 .45acp compact - and the Glock 30 turned out to work well for me, but not so for my wife. She shoots a 1911 very accurately, and very, very slowly. For her to shoot rapidly and comfortably, a 9mm is the correct caliber. She will need a lot of practice to get faster, but because she enjoys shooting the 9c, she will get that practice.

Two in the torso and one in the head will ruin the BGs day with either caliber. Ten misses won't - with either caliber. The gun that you like to shoot is probably your best SD choice, as you're going to be shooting under different conditions than what you trained for.

 

[David E]

Many of the "high level" handgun courses are taught by people with no understanding of teaching. Some are downright charlatans.

Wow, sounds like you've taken dozens of gun classes. What are your top 6?

As to finding out that speed beats pinpoint accuracy, Fairbairn/Sykes made that point 70 years ago. I didn't need a "high level" pistol class to learn that.

You can be shown a key point, practice it under the experienced eye of the instructor who makes subtle, yet key, corrections in your technique until its done the best way possible....or you can simply read about it and think that's just as good...

 

[David E]

I would argue that you could do 3 for range/carry. Just empty them before you load the others at the range, and then load them back up when you're done.

How would using the same three mags at the range minimize the wear and abuse they endure at the range before returning them to carry duty?

 

[Hedgemeister]

Dang it! I only have 5 mags for my primary. I guess when the bad guy comes I'll just throw it at him and start crying. I suck!

 

[David E]

When I said "all else being equal," I was only referring to the guns.

IE; if someone says they can shoot a 9mm faster than a .45, it's not fair to compare a 5" 1911 9mm shooting subsonic ammo to a Kahr PM-45 shooting +P Gold Dot.

 

[Skribs]

It wouldn't, David, but it does work. Reducing the wear and abuse on them was not one of my primary concerns.

I think there are many factors which tell you whether someone is a serious shooter or not, and whether or not he has 6 magazines is a very minor indication, if any at all, of his level of seriousness.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Skribs: I think there are many factors which tell you whether someone is a serious shooter or not, and whether or not he has 6 magazines is a very minor indication, if any at all, of his level of seriousness.

Let's not get wound around the axle on the term "serious" or "seriousness".

When someone first mentioned the idea of having six magazines, I thought it was off topic and way out in left field--until the topic of training was mentioned. I bought extra magazines and magazine carriers for a class, and that had slipped my mind.

"Seriousness" aside, one who has taken the effort to avail himself or herself of some competent training in the skills required to hit multiple moving targets very quickly will likely have the edge over one who has not. One would expect such a person to have owned or had access to several magazines, at least at one time.

Speaking seriously, I would urge anyone who carries a firearm for self defense to look into what training is reasonably available to them and try to get something worthwhile on the priority list. No, it won't be inexpensive, but in comparison with a lot of other things, including that new firearm that one might be looking at, it could prove a lot more beneficial.

Here is one example that one might consider. The tuition for the twenty hour class is $400; that may sound like a lot but I can attest to two things: one can learn a lot of valuable information; and the investment really pales in comparison with a small amount of legal services.

I did not attend the third day shooting at Rangemaster last year for personal reasons, but I've heard only good things about it.

Do you need to do this to be "serious?". No--whatever that means. But it will sure make you better prepared.

It will likely something about your choice of firearm, holster, and so forth.

Frankly, I would may not have chosen a seven shot, Commander length .45 if I had taken some training first, but I had to have a firearm before I could enroll, and that's what I bought.

 

[David E]

It wouldn't, David, but it does work.

Obviously, by unloading your carry ammo you can use those mags at the range. No one said otherwise.

Reducing the wear and abuse on them was not one of my primary concerns.

Maybe it should be. I've shot on ranges where the ground was concrete, rocks, mud, sand, talcum-fine dust and everything in between. This takes a toll on the magazines sooner or later. Of course, if none of your mags ever hit the ground then this doesn't apply....but the "training" then becomes suspect.

I think there are many factors which tell you whether someone is a serious shooter or not,

Obviously. Someone that uses fobus, no-name nylon holsters, folks that keep one 50 rd box of ammo for their defense gun (less 12-32 rds) or someone that fiddles with their gun to find the slide or mag release or the safety or who never shoots, or thinks their carrygun is a Schmidt and Western pocket auto chambered in .308

and whether or not he has 6 magazines is a very minor indication, if any at all, of his level of seriousness.

Owning 100 mags per gun by itself doesn't mean he's serious, either, but those folks are far and few between.

But claiming to be serious about defensive rifle or pistol craft skills while owning but one or two mags for it is an oxymoron.

Since so much can depend on your carrygun which directly depends on reliable magazines to function, it's clear that having additional magazines is a good idea, if only for the "just in case" reason. Why would you not get a few extra?

If you never need them, what have you lost? You can sell or trade them down the road. But if your one or two mags break or whatever, what then? You're SOL and you may not be able to replace it with the same capacity or maybe not the same quality mag and it'll certainly cost more.

Since Gomez champions a 9mm holding a lot of shots, future availability of 11+ rd mags isn't assured. (thread related!) Therefore, the prudent would buy extras now.

Your choice.

 

[X-Rap]

I guess I'm done for I have some Fobus holsters, does having some Blackhawk, Galco, ElPaso absolve me of my sins?
I do have quite a few magazines

 

[Skribs]

David, the place I go shooting is an indoor range. I live in western washington, which is notorious for rain. My magazines get placed on the counter when I'm not using them.

I used a no-name nylon holster! For half a day. The magazine fell out of the magazine pouch and reholstering one-handed was a joke.

If you never need them, what have you lost? You can sell or trade them down the road. But if your one or two mags break or whatever, what then? You're SOL and you may not be able to replace it with the same capacity or maybe not the same quality mag and it'll certainly cost more.

If they break, I have backup guns instead of backup magazines. If the magazine on my SP101 breaks I'm totally screwed, and I've got a couple others. Like I said, I don't run my magazines very hard, so I haven't worried abou them.

But claiming to be serious about defensive rifle or pistol craft skills while owning but one or two mags for it is an oxymoron.

I disagree. Like I said, there are different situations based on budget. I have to choose where I go with my "seriousness" about the shooting craft. Magazines are not on top of my list.

 

[Loosedhorse]

future availability of 11+ rd mags isn't assured. (thread related!)

Nothing is assured. Should I stock up on mags, ammo, "assault weapons", etc. now...or wait to panic later?

I'm a little wary of the mutliple mags equals competence or "seriousness", idea, but I don't know. There's this saying about "Beware the man with one gun." Not sure if it needs to be updated to "Beware the man with one gun and at least 6 mags for it."

The tuition for the twenty hour class is $400

I'm happy to tell anyone the LF1-1 course I took (MAG-40 now, I guess) was the best money I've spent on training; and the legal portion (MAG-20 now) was the most important part of that. For me--YMMV.

Great news about MAG-20: you don't have to buy a single new magazine! Whether you should spend that $400 on Mas's non-shootig course, or a shoooting course, or spare mags...or something else? You'd know better than I.

BTW, things may have changed, but Mas used to rotate guns: one week he wore this, the next week that. The week I took LFI-1, he wore a 1911 Gov't. Several other instructors have done did the same, and another used a (gasp!) single stack 9mm.

Go with what you like, and make sure you're good with it. Personally, I'd say get as much training as (and the best training) you can afford.

 

[Bubba613]

But claiming to be serious about defensive rifle or pistol craft skills while owning but one or two mags for it is an oxymoron.

Darn. I'm just gonna go lie down in the gutter and die now.
Actually I have no magazines for my carry gun. Does that mean I'm just kidding?

 

[David E]

My magazines get placed on the counter when I'm not using them. Like I said, I don't run my magazines very hard, so I haven't worried abou them

Clearly!

If they (magazines) break, I have backup guns instead of backup magazines.

Ok, soooo cost isn't an issue, since you buy back-up GUNS instead of back-up magazines.....

I have to choose where I go with my "seriousness" about the shooting craft.

Pray tell, where might that be?

 

[David E]

Nothing is assured. Should I stock up on mags, ammo, "assault weapons", etc. now...or wait to panic later?

It's not idle speculation. For the ten years the AWB was in effect, hicap mags were hard to find and pricey when you did. As time went on, prices went up. No one knew it would sunset until it did....for now. After obama won, there was an ammo drought for about a year. i had to wait months for a few hicap mags that had previously always been in stock. Wait if you wish. Most people buy the fire extinguisher before the fire. Those that didn't sure wish they had.

I'm a little wary of the mutliple mags equals competence or "seriousness", idea, but I don't know.

As I've already said, owning multiple mags alone doesn't identify someone as serious, but I've never come across anyone but recreational shooters that only owned 1-2 mags for their primary gun.

Understand, there's nothing wrong with that! But this thread has to do with defensive pistol use, not recreational shooting.

The word "serious" has caused several here to bristle as if it were a personal insult, which wasn't my intent. But it makes me wonder what standard they are using to identify themselves as such, but that's probably a different thread.

 

[David E]

Actually I have no magazines for my carry gun. Does that mean I'm just kidding?

It probably means you carry a revolver...or a single-shot....hard to know for sure....

 

[SabbathWolf]

That must be why all the professional pistol shooters shoot .45's, because those bigger bullets give them a better chance that the hole in the target will nick the line, giving them the higher value.

Oops, turns out that 95% of them shoot .40 or 9mm, seems that they figured out that placement and controllability is more important than a few thousandths of an inch in bullet diameter. Your theory that bigger is automatically better only applies if you're counting on pure luck to hit something.

Just think, if you applied your vast knowledge of the benefits of bigger diameter bullets, you could easily be national champion!

2010 USPSA Nationals

40_______218_______63.01%
9mm_____111________32.08%
45_______16________4.62%
10mm_____1________0.29%
38 Super___0________0.00%

_________346______100.00%

Placement and controllability is a personal thing. It has nothing to do with which bullet is potentially more lethal.

 

[Bubba613]

All of my extra cylinders are hi cap. And I have an Ashley Big Dot front sight.
AND, I wear 5.11 tactical vests.

 

[David E]

All of my extra cylinders are hi cap. And I have an Ashley Big Dot front sight.
AND, I wear 5.11 tactical vests.

Well, there you go!

 

[Skribs]

David, my point was, if I have a spare magazine, and my magazine breaks, I can use the spare. If I have a spare magazine, and my gun breaks, that spare don't help me.

A good example of this was with my shotgun. My Supernova, which was my only shotgun, got taken out of commission. It's nothing that would have happened in a firefight, but the way it broke prevented me from securing the recoil pad on it, which would have made it hurt me as much as it hurt the BG. Hence I bought my 930 SPX.

Other examples are, trying to find a good way to CCW, I got an SP101 and an LCP in addition to my XDm, and then tried different holsters. After getting a bit of advice at the range, I found out I should be shooting (and carrying) left-handed, which meant I needed new holsters...which meant I needed to start over because the manufacturer's I'd already tried don't make left-handed models of the holsters I liked from them. So there's some cost.

I'd rather have an XD with 3 magazines and an LCP with 2 than just and XD with 6magazines, because if something happens to the XD, those 5 spares do me no good.

So yes, I've spent money. It hasn't been on magazines. It's been on finding a good way to CCW, including holster and other platforms, as well as good platforms for HD. Next, it's going to be a trigger job for my XD. But you're right. Because I've been focusing on other things, and not getting magazines, I must not be serious.

How many speedloaders should I have for my SP101?

 

[SabbathWolf]

...How many speedloaders should I have for my SP101?

SP101 = 101 SPeed loaders doesn't it?

 

[David E]

David, my point was, if I have a spare magazine, and my magazine breaks, I can use the spare. If I have a spare magazine, and my gun breaks, that spare don't help me.

Of course, when your mag breaks and you use your spare, you then have no reload, until and unless you can buy a replacement. It's (currently) an incredibly easy problem to prevent, so its amusing how hard some argue against it.

 

[Skribs]

I'm not arguing against it. I see the logic in having spares. I also see the logic in other things. I'm also not saying "don't have any spares," I have some. But I think 3 magazines is plenty and you can be serious with that.

Also, if I'm carrying IWB, I usually don't carry a spare. Way I see it, if I'm good with 10 rounds in my SP101 (with a speedloader, which I often don't bother with) I'm good with 11 in my XDm 40C. I do carry a double mag pouch if I'm going out at night, though.

 

[David E]

getting a bit of advice at the range, I found out I should be....

Next time you're there, ask those same guys what they think about spare mags.

When I was a cop, I encouraged a fellow officer to wear a vest, citing various reasons. He "didn't see the need," so he didn't wear one...until his sergeant told him to, citing the exact same reasons I had months before. I was a little annoyed, but glad he finally understood the wisdom of it.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Skribs]

Wearing a vest in a field you're likely to get shot at and having spare mags that just sit at home "in case" one breaks are two different things.

Like I said, I don't deny that having spares is a good thing. All I'm saying is, just because someone doesn't have 6 spares doesn't make them less serious.

 

[David E]

I said having 6 mags alone doesn't identify one as "serious," and listed other observed tell tale signs.

Since you don't like my stated observation, perhaps you can tell us what identifies someone as "serious" in your experience.