Perfect vs One Gun

[JShirley]

I've taken deer with 12 GA (slugs and buckshot), .308, .30-06, .45-70, crossbow, and I finished off with .40 S&W a very tough deer who believed that a .35 Remington through the boiler wasn't enough to put HIM down. I have been looking for the "perfect" deer caliber for over 20 years. I define that as not over-powered, but with enough juice to put a deer down decisively, even with quartering shots. Years ago, I thought that about a 100-grain bullet at close to 3000 fps was about ideal. My candidates for this rifle include .300 BO (at proper ranges), .224 Valkyrie, fast-twist .22-250, 6.5 Grendel, and probably eventually 350 Legend. A standard-pressure .45 Colt at closer ranges should also do this perfectly: @Walkalong kindly loaded some standard-pressure heavy cast loads for me that took 10 milk jugs of water to stop. I imagine rifle recoil will be just enough to tell me I've fired.

HOWEVER, I also have the competing idea of the North American "one gun" rifle. That's the cartridge that isn't overkill on deer, but that has enough power to even take on the heavy/dangerous NA game like elk, moose, grizzly and brown bears. I'm not likely to encounter those in GA or AL, but I have seen hogs well over 300 lbs. My (owned) candidates for the one gun include 7mm Remington Magnum, .308 (just barely), .30-06, .35 Whelen, and at appropriate ranges, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, and 12 GA.

The cartridge of course is only part of the equation: even "perfect" calibers can underperform or fail with bullets poorly chosen for the application. Dearly deceased buddy Byron Quick had issues with bullet construction with both 7mm Magnum (fragmented on deer) and .35 Whelen (took a shot to each shoulder to stop a decent hog). I believe ammunition in each case was the common Remington PowerPoint. I took a deer with a very tough .308 better suited for elk or hogs: as I did, I was very clear that I needed a very clean shot for the heavy controlled-expansion bullet to work well. If I hadn't been using a precision rifle, and just come out of two years of firing thousands of rounds while preparing to deploy overseas, I would not have used that bullet.

I am not aware of any real candidates for both the "perfect" deer rifle and the "one gun". I believe the closest you could probably come would be something like 6.5x55mm or 6.5 Creedmoor, but I definitely would want to be holding something heavier if I surprised a moose at close range. How are you likely to choose your rifle(s)?

Edited to add: I was looking for this pic, and found in the thread a description of a doe I killed with .35 Whelen, so add that to the calibers I've used. These two does were taken at 225 and 178 yards, with a sporterized 1903 I got from Art Eatman. Miss you guys...

 

[jmorris]

If I go on a hunt that takes me more than an hour to get to, I couldn’t tell you the last time I only took one gun with me.

Even if I happened to pick the first one, I have seen so many things happen to a “perfect” setup, I always have a spare. All the way down to a simple dove hunt.

I choose a rifle by just picking one out. They are not always the most deadly machine I have but I might be working on that very thing, despite having already developed better combinations with other rounds.

 

[BreechFace]

My choice depends on conditions of the hunt and just personal preference; anticipated shot distance, size of game and desire to try new loads.

Our whitetail and in some units our elk out here are a close quarters affair <100 yards. On whitetail given I reload and enjoy firearms, I like to try new bullet designs for the 450 Bushmaster (supers and subsonics).

Whereas some units of elk, mulies and antelope are longer range affairs 200-500 yards. And the 280ai gets the nod.

Then when dealing with coyotes a fast flat round like the 243 Win makes all the sense in the world.

But in all hunts I’m typically taking a backup rifle just in case. And as with all choices, choice of bullet design is as important as caliber.

 

[jmorris]

all choices, choice of bullet design is as important as caliber.

With some choices it’s the most important thing. The further your choice is from what some might call “overkill” (as if there is a such thing when your intention is to end somethings life as quickly as you can) the more important choice of bullet becomes.

 

[d2wing]

It kinda depends on the game you want to include. Alaska or lower 48. For everything in North America it has to be the 30-06 for me. 308 or 7 MM Mag would be close seconds and still suitable for deer and other game in the lower 48. Since I don't plan on Alaska or Grizzly bears I shoot a 7-08 and think it's near perfect for mainly large deer. I have killed deer with a 357, .223, Slugs, 7.62x39, 30-06 and many more. They all work. Some way better though. 6.5 anything, 243 anything, 7 MM anything would also work. The main thing is correct bullet construction for the range and game and bullet placement. I strongly favor high velocity and accuracy for range and power without excess recoil. Some guys need a 300+ super magnum blast-um. or punkin ball 1800's weapon or they can't hunt. They work too but not my cup of tea. Why hurt yourself? If you include Elk, Moose and Black bear I would go 7 MM or .30 Cal. something or at least 6.5. Also I prefer bolt actions for hunting. I think AR's and bulky, noisy and awkward for the power. I should add, the best shot deer hunter I have known used a Winchester 88 lever action in .284 and I saw him kill a running deer at 440 yards, one shot DRT. It's the Indian, LOL. It's America, most of us still have choices.

 

[JShirley]

With some choices it’s the most important thing. The further your choice is from what some might call “overkill” (as if there is a such thing when your intention is to end somethings life as quickly as you can) the more important choice of bullet becomes.

I think in context most of us mean something that is going to thump your shoulder pretty hard and/or destroy much more meat than necessary. Again, you're right, bullet construction is a big deal. Byron wouldn't have lost a deer with that 7mm Mag if he'd been using a sturdier bullet, or (probably) if the deer had been 100 yards further away. I do like some of the heavy, moderate velocity loads for the combination of being both decisive in effect, but not overly destructive on meat. That cast .45 load I have should go through 2 deer, or a single deer, stem to stern, cutting a clean .452 hole along the way, but destroying very little extra meat.

 

[jmorris]

You don’t have to have a round that can go stem to stern to kill something. I have killed hundreds of hogs with the lowly .22lr, the margins for error get pretty small though.

That said, you don’t destroy any meat unless you are a brain eater.



Then again, there are a lot of rounds that wouldn’t pass through but would still cause a lot of destruction.

 

[JShirley]

That's a lot of hogs! I only saw a big group like that twice on the Quick family land we hunted for years. I wasn't suggesting that super-deep penetration was vital, just giving an example of something that should have plenty of killing power while not damaging a lot of meat like a higher-velocity fragmenting bullet would.

 

[Chuck R.]

For me, it's all about the conditions and the game. I try to tailor caliber, rifle length, and optics to the task/purpose.

Deer:
Open Country: .270Win & .300 WM 24" barrels, higher magnification optics (2-12X and 3-18X), bonded bullets
Blinds, stands, wooded: .260Rem & .350RM, 20" barrels, 2.5-8X36, .260 gets bonded, 350RM gets cup and core
Drives & still hunting: .350RM and soon to be .358Win 1.25-4X and 1.5-5X, cup and core

Large Game:
Open Country: 300WM and 8x68S, bonded or partitions
Wooded/timber: .350RM 225 Partitions

My solution for near VS far impact velocity is to go with bonded bullets for the HV rounds, just in case it's a close shot. For the expected short range encounters in wooded terrain I've gone to mid bores with their slower MVs, or the .260 with a heavier bonded bullet at 2800FPS.

The closest I have for the elusive all around rifle is the custom 300WM I put together this year. 24" barrel, 3-18x56 VX6HD and slightly over 8lbs loaded. It's a little long for a true woods rifle though.

When I travel I always take a back-up or two. A close match to the primary and a 3rd in case there's different conditions.

 

[theotherwaldo]

If I ever hunt again I will select a weapon that will enable me to kill quickly and cleanly without destroying an unnecessary amount of meat - if meat is the reason for the hunt.
I hunt only out of necessity.

 

[Mick Boon]

If I ever want to kill something it will be for food only, I would have to be desperate, and it would be shot from my yard, most likely from my shooting bench at a maximum of 200 yards. It would be a tossup between my CZ 527 and WK 181-C, the accuracy is the same, they are both good for a head shot at up to 200 yard range, and 7.62x39 is plenty man enough for the job.

 

[JShirley]

For me, it's all about the conditions and the game. I try to tailor caliber, rifle length, and optics to the task/purpose.
...

My solution for near VS far impact velocity is to go with bonded bullets for the HV rounds, just in case it's a close shot. For the expected short range encounters in wooded terrain I've gone to mid bores with their slower MVs, or the .260 with a heavier bonded bullet at 2800FPS.

The closest I have for the elusive all around rifle is the custom 300WM I put together this year. 24" barrel, 3-18x56 VX6HD and slightly over 8lbs loaded. It's a little long for a true woods rifle though.

When I travel I always take a back-up or two. A close match to the primary and a 3rd in case there's different conditions.

@Chuck R. , that sounds like a careful and sound approach. I have some old-fashioned SPs for my 7mm Remington Magnums, but I'm just going to use them to sight in. I have bonded 150-grain bullets for "real" use.

My "one rifles" are probably my 1903 sporter, .35 Whelens (7600 and custom Montana action), and my P14 Centurion 7mm RM and Mauser M18 7mm RM. I guess that P14 and my Bubba'd 1917 are good Alaskan/backup rifles, being in appropriate calibers and not so pretty I'll care much if they take a few more hits. (I actually had a Centurion in .300WM as well, but someone had buggered up one of the scope mounts.) Once I set up my .454 R92, it would also be close-range candidate. Still debating what optic to use- I want it to be as heavy as possible!

 

[Legionnaire]

I voted, "Variety is the spice of life," because that's where I am today. I haven't hunted regularly since moving to Texas (I'm not going to pay a lease to shoot scrawny whitetail over bait), but I have multiple implements capable of taking game. I've harvested deer with bow and arrow, shotgun and slugs, rifles in multiple cartridges, a .44 mag revolver, and a single shot Encore pistol.

ETA: Forgot the .50 cal flintlock!

That said, I think if I had to narrow it down to a single cartridge for all NA game, it would be one of three: 7mm-08 at the low end, .280 AI (or 7 PRC) in the middle, and .375 Ruger at the top. My sense is that limiting myself to just the .375 would be overkill in most instances, even if downloaded. The 7mm-08 is a fantastic round, but loading for the .280 AI might provide the most versatility. So maybe a .280 Ackley would be "the one."

 

[JShirley]

@Mick Boon, gosh, that CZ is purty!

 

[md7]

Good question. I think the right “one” rifle or tool depends on what variety of game you’re after, and the ranges you are comfortable taking shots. Bullet selection is also important.

For me, I limit my shots on live game to 300 yards and that’s regardless of cartridge. I’m not skilled or practiced enough to be effective or ethical on living game beyond those distances so I just don’t attempt it. I also don’t dial shots, etc. and that colors my answer to this question to an extent.

For me, I’d be fine with a 308 win or 30-06 for a “one, do it all” type of hunting rifle for anything in the lower 48. That jives with my style and distance. And capable beyond 300, certainly if the shooter is.

Now, I’ve read accounts of folk using 308 and 06 in Alaska and for use on bear. I’m sure it would work with the right bullet and good placement but I may consider something different. A large heavy gr magnum or something like that. But I’m too ignorant and ill informed to know what’s ideal for that scenario.

 

[JmacD]

I've taken deer with 12 GA (slugs and buckshot), .308, .30-06, .45-70, crossbow, and I finished off with .40 S&W a very tough deer who believed that a .35 Remington through the boiler wasn't enough to put HIM down. I have been looking for the "perfect" deer caliber for over 20 years. I define that as not over-powered, but with enough juice to put a deer down decisively, even with quartering shots. Years ago, I thought that about a 100-grain bullet at close to 3000 fps was about ideal. My candidates for this rifle include .300 BO (at proper ranges), .224 Valkyrie, fast-twist .22-250, 6.5 Grendel, and probably eventually 350 Legend. A standard-pressure .45 Colt at closer ranges should also do this perfectly: @Walkalong kindly loaded some standard-pressure heavy cast loads for me that took 10 milk jugs of water to stop. I imagine rifle recoil will be just enough to tell me I've fired.

HOWEVER, I also have the competing idea of the North American "one gun" rifle. That's the cartridge that isn't overkill on deer, but that has enough power to even take on the heavy/dangerous NA game like elk, moose, grizzly and brown bears. I'm not likely to encounter those in GA or AL, but I have seen hogs well over 300 lbs. My (owned) candidates for the one gun include 7mm Remington Magnum, .308 (just barely), .30-06, .35 Whelen, and at appropriate ranges, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, and 12 GA.

The cartridge of course is only part of the equation: even "perfect" calibers can underperform or fail with bullets poorly chosen for the application. Dearly deceased buddy Byron Quick had issues with bullet construction with both 7mm Magnum (fragmented on deer) and .35 Whelen (took a shot to each shoulder to stop a decent hog). I believe ammunition in each case was the common Remington PowerPoint. I took a deer with a very tough .308 better suited for elk or hogs: as I did, I was very clear that I needed a very clean shot for the heavy controlled-expansion bullet to work well. If I hadn't been using a precision rifle, and just come out of two years of firing thousands of rounds while preparing to deploy overseas, I would not have used that bullet.

I am not aware of any real candidates for both the "perfect" deer rifle and the "one gun". I believe the closest you could probably come would be something like 6.5x55mm or 6.5 Creedmoor, but I definitely would want to be holding something heavier if I surprised a moose at close range. How are you likely to choose your rifle(s)?

Edited to add: I was looking for this pic, and found in the thread a description of a doe I killed with .35 Whelen, so add that to the calibers I've used. These two does were taken at 225 and 178 yards, with a sporterized 1903 I got from Art Eatman. Miss you guys...

Well stated. I’m also going add, the area hunted can define, or perhaps, redefine “perfect”… my plains and Sandhills of Nebraska or rolling plateau of northeastern South Dakota are gonna be different than the area you describe. And the whitetails are going to tip the scales in a different class as well. Can you use a lot of the weapons listed above? Yes. But then “perfect performance” must be defined by your own strictly set limitations.

 

[dh1633pm]

Isn't my 120 pound lab bigger than a southern deer? We northerners think the southern deer are all small. Not based on truth, just jest. I use two rifles for hunting white tail. I am no expert at anything (except for what I do for a living). I use a 1894G 45-70 for the tight woods of North Central New York. Where getting a 100 yard shot is a pipe dream. Think Osceola NY if looking on the map or parts thereabout. In the more southern part of Central New York, think the Route 20 corridor between Cazenovia and Richfield Springs, there you need to be able to reach out and touch something. For that I go with the GSR. Sometimes the equipment has to match the caliber. What fits me might not fit you. I have also gotten deer with the 12 ga. Now that we no longer have to use the 12 ga, I haven't. If I had to single it down to one for everything, it would be the GSR. Although the 1895G could also fill that role.

Let me know when you find that magic caliber. I'll get one.

 

[Mick Boon]

@Mick Boon, gosh, that CZ is purty!

Why they stopped making them I will never understand.

 

[Gun-Reck]

Have a Perfect Rifle.

And then a scatter-pattern of rifles that do the same thing - differently.

Caliber/Action/Optic/Barrel length/Furniture/etc...

A Craftsman and his tools.

 

[JShirley]

Isn't my 120 pound lab bigger than a southern deer? We northerners think the southern deer are all small. Not based on truth, just jest.

Some truth in that, depending on where you are. FL and TX I believe are especially known for small deer. In GA, a pretty good doe might be 120 lbs. Most bucks I've taken in GA and AL have probably been about 140.

In GA, hunting around Waynesboro, I have seen a doe small enough that my friend Doug, a small man himself, dragged it out of the woods with one hand. (When he fired, he thought it was larger, and further away. Good eating, though.) In the pic near the end of the original post, I had the opposite issue. I thought the does were smaller, but closer. The larger was probably about 120, and I hit her at a lasered 225 yards (lasered after the fact, from where she dropped in her tracks to the stand).

 

[Gun-Reck]

Isn't my 120 pound lab bigger than a southern deer? We northerners think the southern deer are all small. Not based on truth, just jest.

We have transplanted Minnesota White Tail in our woods, and the local WMA's.

Monsters, to go with the 300 lb.+ hogs.

Heavy for caliber, moderate velocity loads.

 

[md7]

Well stated. I’m also going add, the area hunted can define, or perhaps, redefine “perfect”… my plains and Sandhills of Nebraska or rolling plateau of northeastern South Dakota are gonna be different than the area you describe.

Right on and well said. Lay of the land varies wildly and should be a factor.

In my area, it’s either woodland or acreage on rolling hills. The farthest possible shot for me is 300 yards per the terrain. And only once in almost 30 years have I been offered shots exceeding 200 yards. Most are inside 150 yards.

I wouldn’t know what to do in the flat, wide open areas like you describe.

 

[JShirley]

Right on and well said. Lay of the land varies wildly and should be a factor.

In my area, it’s either woodland or acreage on rolling hills. The farthest possible shot for me is 300 yards per the terrain. And only once in almost 30 years have I been offered shots exceeding 200 yards. Most are inside 150 yards.

I wouldn’t know what to do in the flat, wide open areas like you describe.

On that 100-acre plot I hunted from about 1998-2008, I frequently would carry one rifle to hunt the stands overlooking fields, and a lighter, handier rifle or a shotgun with slugs to stalk through the woods in the afternoons. I know some folks who believe you can't kill deer from the ground, but I've killed at least 3 from the ground, and let many more go.

 

[md7]

On that 100-acre plot I hunted from about 1998-2008, I frequently would carry one rifle to hunt the stands overlooking fields, and a lighter, handier rifle or a shotgun with slugs to stalk through the woods in the afternoons. I know some folks who believe you can't kill deer from the ground, but I've killed at least 3 from the ground, and let many more go.

Absolutely my friend!

I’ve got a pop up seat and tri pod. Use it all the time and you can definitely kill from the ground.

 

[d2wing]

Oh to be young again and be able to sneak through sections of private woods and farms with my 30-30 or 357. I have shot many from the ground, especially when hunting in a slug only zone. The land is all developed or posted and I am not that spry or stealthy anymore. Lately I hunt from a stand, shots range from right under me to 250 yards across a swamp. My first choice is my Tikka in 7-08 but I have used everything from an AR in ,223, 30-06 7400, and more, and sometimes bring a handgun in addition, and a backup gun.