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coondogger
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I'm using Hogdon Pyrodex.
persistent rust in barrel after cleaning
- Thread starter coondogger
- Start date
Notwithstanding any particular powder used...
Take a look at this salt-water mist test ...
(14 & 15 days)
...and use one of those rather obvious choices before you put the gun away.
(I do suggest 1-Shot BLACK since it flashes to a dry lube in a minute or two)
Just simple clean patch before next shooting session
Take a look at this salt-water mist test ...
(14 & 15 days)
...and use one of those rather obvious choices before you put the gun away.
(I do suggest 1-Shot BLACK since it flashes to a dry lube in a minute or two)
Just simple clean patch before next shooting session
hawg
Member
It's funny, I live in Mississippi and if it's anything here it's humid. I use hot soapy water and I don't get any flash rust. I do use WD-40 after the soapy water but with my revolvers I set the action aside to drain while I clean the rest. Then do all the parts with WD at once.
Ugly Sauce
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BINGO!! SHAZAM! Give the man a cigar. DO NOT use hot water. Nyet! NINE!!! Luke-warm at most. Hot water will cause "flash rust". It evaporates too fast. I've not read through to the end of this thread, but I can't believe this has not been mentioned.
As the Farmer alludes to, although tongue in cheek, cleaning the the rifle the next day or so is a good idea.
As the Hawg mentions, not all brown is necessarily rust.
The old timers, back in the day, just used plain cold water. Not even soap. When we find the Cretin who started this hot water thing, he will be whooped with a knotted plow line.
DO NOT USE HOT WATER. Unless, of course, you want rust. Okay, I will read on, I really hope someone else has pointed this out.
hawg
Member
I do use hot water but not so hot I can't put my hands in it. Indians used to clean their rifles in creeks. Wood and all.
Armored farmer
Member
I think pyrodex is more corrosive than real black.
hawg
Member
It's not. I used Pyrodex for many years. It's still my go to if I run out of real black. I left a revolver uncleaned for 9 days after using Pyrodex and had no signs of rust or corrosion.
Ugly Sauce
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Urine was commonly used. We've all heard about using it in combat, when there was no water, but that wasn't the only time. 98.6 degrees, just right. "Don't pee down my barrel, and tell me it's raining."
Yes, creeks, rain barrel, pond or lake, cold water was the go to. I've found Windex glass cleaner to be my go-to. That's all I use. (the exception being the TC, that I remove the barrel, put it in the sink, and pump warm (about 98.6!!!) soapy water through it. Mostly because I don't trust that long weird flash channel)
Bottom line, cold water evaporates very slowly, giving one time to dry the bore and oil it long before any rusting can occur, let alone flash-rust. Some guys use boiling water, and wonder why they get instant rust.
I don't believe warm, hot or boiling cleans any better than cold. Maybe, perhaps warm. A little dish soap is what really makes the difference.
hawg
Member
Urine was commonly used. We've all heard about using it in combat, when there was no water, but that wasn't the only time. 98.6 degrees, just right. "Don't pee down my barrel, and tell me it's raining."
Yes, creeks, rain barrel, pond or lake, cold water was the go to. I've found Windex glass cleaner to be my go-to. That's all I use. (the exception being the TC, that I remove the barrel, put it in the sink, and pump warm (about 98.6!!!) soapy water through it. Mostly because I don't trust that long weird flash channel)
Bottom line, cold water evaporates very slowly, giving one time to dry the bore and oil it long before any rusting can occur, let alone flash-rust. Some guys use boiling water, and wonder why they get instant rust.
I use hot tap water. I put revolvers in it and when it cools down enough to put my hands in it I do my cleaning. When I take the parts out the water does not evaporate. I put hot water in a bucket to clean rifle barrels.
Perzactly !!
Steel Horse Rider
Member
Maybe it has to do with what has been added to the water. I use hot water faucet water from my sink (125 degrees) and Dawn dish soap. I made a tray from a piece of plastic rain gutter with both ends sealed. When I shoot BP I usually take 3 or 4 different rifles and sometimes one pistol just because I don't want to drag everything out to clean one gun......
As I said before, I have never experienced any flash rust or even slow rust after cleaning.
As I said before, I have never experienced any flash rust or even slow rust after cleaning.
Eyrie G. Dogg
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Over the decades I have used many pounds of Pyrodex P and have never had a problem with rust. Would much rather use Swiss or T7 but it’s not always available around here. I also use hot water and clean at least by the night of the day of shooting. Coastal N. CA gets pretty wet in the cold season with rain and fog and salty mist. It’s no MS but it can get pretty humid at times. Pyro has never hurt my guns, neither has hot water.
Ugly Sauce
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I'm telling you guys....98.6!! Battlefield proven! 
And here's the problem. While some swear it won't harm a barrel, have never had an issue, leave guns for days without cleaning or rust, my experience with this stuff is the exact, 180degree opposite. Most of the seriously roached guns and ruined barrels I've seen are ones that have been shot with Pyrodex. I won't use it or recommend it to anyone. I go through quite a bit of the holy black every year, and I'm not talking a couple pounds. It's on the order of 40-50lbs a year. I use the holy black in competition shooting, practice, recreational plinking, and in teaching muzzleloading. I have been forced to leave a gun uncleaned for more than a couple days on occasion and in every case with real black powder, there was no issue.
Easy to clean up, warm soapy water, Windex, wipe down, oil, done.
Hydrogen Peroxide is one of the most powerful oxidizers* known
-- stronger than chlorine, chlorine dioxide, and potassium permanganate.
How it became associated with cleaning barrels after BP use is beyond
this Gentle Reader's understanding,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* "Rust" occurs when iron reacts with oxygen and water.
What is "hydrogen peroxide, but an water as an unstable oxygen carrier
-- stronger than chlorine, chlorine dioxide, and potassium permanganate.
How it became associated with cleaning barrels after BP use is beyond
this Gentle Reader's understanding,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* "Rust" occurs when iron reacts with oxygen and water.
What is "hydrogen peroxide, but an water as an unstable oxygen carrier
Lefty38-55
Member
It is! The Pyrodex formulation uses perchlorates, a salt of perchloric acid, which is used as a powerful oxidizing agent in modern pyrotechnics, but it is highly corrosive and a tough to kill salt/acid! It is a stronger acid than either sulfuric acid, nitric acid or hydrochloric acid!
My experience confirms this too~! I buy out estates for anything BP and MZL-related and consult to 6 modern 'toy shops' near me, they call me for anything BP ... as they don't know them nor really want them. So I help go through them and it makes it a 'win - win' situation for all of us, and we might go through 30 to 50 BP arms a year. EVERY Pyrodex-suspected arm (mostly a Traditions or CVA, sometime a kit T/C) has significantly worse corrosion and pitting then even originals arms using real BP that date back to the 1800s, e.g., Springfield 1816 flintlocks, their later rifled muskets etc. and so on.
Off-topic, but on one flintlock ... I pulled not 1, not 2, but 3 loads from the barrel! The load was 2 stacked 50-grain 'power pellets' under a plastic saboted 44Mag handgun bullet, with another saboted charge above that, and on top of that was 80-grains of Pyrodex under a patched bore-butter ball! I suspect the shooter started out with the loose powdah/patched RB load then switched over to saboted loads, likely on the bad advice from a friend. When the power pellet load wouldn't fire, the loaded it up AGAIN and tried again. Wen that didn't fire ... they added the loose powdah load. Conditions showed the gun had been fired before they started this fiasco, as the breech area was rusted from combustion by-products of the Pyrodex firing, then sitting there for years. it is also more hydroscopic than real black powdah.
Armored farmer
Member
Ditto @dave951 .
Ditto @Lefty38-55
I shoot quite a bit, and also a member of an active club of shooters and rifle builders. We visit and shoot at other clubs too.
Nobody shoots pyrodex because it is just what it says it is....a substitute.
Flintlocks sputter on it because of its lower flash point.
Iirc it contains chlorine which is highly corrosive.
I used it too, because I could buy it at WM. I have since started ordering real black powder in bulk from Grafs or Powder House, or buying it at Friendship NMLRA home grounds.
Ditto @Lefty38-55
I shoot quite a bit, and also a member of an active club of shooters and rifle builders. We visit and shoot at other clubs too.
Nobody shoots pyrodex because it is just what it says it is....a substitute.
Flintlocks sputter on it because of its lower flash point.
Iirc it contains chlorine which is highly corrosive.
I used it too, because I could buy it at WM. I have since started ordering real black powder in bulk from Grafs or Powder House, or buying it at Friendship NMLRA home grounds.
hawg
Member
Where it comes to Pyrodex let your own experience guide you. Not what somebody on an internet forum tells you but give it an honest chance and not go off of what others say.
Lefty38-55
Member
It certainly has it's place! We're not saying "Don't use it ... ", but to just clean the arm up really well afterwards! A friend, who would have to travel across 3 State lines to get real BP, uses it successfully with duplex loads. Like 10-grains of real 3Fg BP down in the bore 1st in his flintlock, then Pyrodex to fill the load above it.
Yup. What would some of us internet keyboard jockeys know about black powder..... embrace and enjoy mediocrity
anyways - ballistol emulsion is the best method cleaning up after black powder. Simple, easy, less time and less messy and less hassle than all other methods described here. My 133 yr old TD with major pitting shoots great and no rust. I don't shoot BP substitutes but those I've talked to say it is fine if you clean it immediately after your session. I clean my BP rifles immediately upon returning home but I know you can leave them for awhile if you are not in a super humid climate. Lee Shaver, international champion in muzzleloading talked about this in his magazine several issues back.
Armored farmer
Member
...and these NMLRA Illinois Territorial awards did NOT come in Cracker Jack boxes.
I won them.
Eyrie G. Dogg
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As a register of discourse the categorical, definitive, absolute is an unproductive tone. It indicates serious limitations.
woodnbow
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Seems like what you had there was proof that although a flintlock rifle is almost a fool proof system, a fool will work very hard to defeat it. If he’d used Blackpowder I suspect he would have found a way to screw it up as well.
WRT the fine accuracy you’re all showing us, do you think such accuracy is only possible with Black Powder?
Lefty38-55
Member
I’m a firm believer in load development, whether it be on my black powdah arms or those modern arms using smokeless. So by default, that would have to include any of the synthetic powders.
FACT - All barrels vibrate like a tuning fork when shot! ‘Time’ your load so it shoots when the barrel is at its least movement … and you’ll have an accurate load. For modern arms, also look up Dan Newberry’s “Optimal Charge Weight” (OCW) method, which is where I learned all this. He has recommended loads for most modern calibers and powders. I’m the only one I know preaching this method for use on BP arms … LOL!
Load Development - Posted from another Forum, here’s how I do it!
GIVEN - Every barrel on any type of firearm or firelock - using ANY type of propellant or powdah - vibrate like a tuning fork when shot and the barrel whips in a sine wave manner, typically vibrating up & down like a looooong sideways 'S'.
A node is where the barrel is at the point(s) of the LEAST movement. That is when you want your shot to be fired. There may be several nodes identified as you increase your powder charge. To test this, you ‘randomly’ shoot 3-shot groups at a bullseye for each charge, beginning with your starting load and say working up in 5-grain increments for a few different charges. Repeat with other sets, up to what you think may be near your max charge, say if you wanted to identify a lower co$t or more accurate target load, as well as a heavier hunting load.
Note - One does NOT shoot all of one charge at once, but shoot them in a random pattern, as then 'statistically' you will have normalized the data by eliminating YOUR bias and spreading any human-induced variation across ALL of the shots and groups.
Examples of such bias are your aim/hold, light on the target, cheek and/or shoulder position or pressure, yanking the trigger or like when you begin to shoot poorly towards the end when tired. Any such factor - independent of the load - could adversely influence or bias the last group's results. Statistically shooting them in a round-robin manner thus significantly increases the confidence you can place in the results. For consistency, I pre-load the charges in plastic tubes marked with the charge weight.
(I have many, many examples … )
Those shots with the tightest group denote the range around a node. To fine tune, then experiment around the identified node, if you care to. I also do similar for my modern unmentionable 1,000-yard rifle, but this method (based on physics) also works for black powdah as I have proven it many times. Believe or not, but I get many PMs saying one can’t apply ‘modern theory’ to black powder shootin’!
The summary here is … that in as little as 12-shots I determined what load my 48” barreled ‘Rob Miller’ Carolina 62-cal flint smoothbore liked!