Personal Defense Obligations

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Special_K

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I have an interesting question for everyone on THR.

Say for some legitimate reason you need to defend yourself from a person in a life threating situation. Perhaps you fired at the perpitrator, perhaps you stabbed them with a knife.

My question is:

Do we have any medical obligation to try to save that persons life?
I'm a combat lifesaver in the national guard, a nursing student in school, and just generally a person that loves life in general. It's hard for me not to help someone in need no matter what they have done.


So, would you help that person?
How would it look in court?


Thanks,
special_"K"


Edit: To Clarify, no Legal grounds for this, simply moral.
 
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I just read an article somewhere where the victim tried to save the bad guy they shot and the victim ended up being a victim twice.

I wish I remembered where I saw that.
 
Do we have any medical obligation to try to save that persons life?
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What's a medical obligation? I've never heard about any legal obligation to do so. Whether or not it's a moral obligation is up to the person but putting yourself and your weapon dangerously close to someone who just tried to kill (and who may have a weapon/other weapons on him/her) you doesn't sound like a great idea.
 
If you are required to sign an oath stating that you are legally required to save a life then yes you are obliged. Doctors sign one, do nurses?

To me the larger issue is the moral obligation to avoid taking life if at all possible. How would you reconcile that issue in your own mind and soul? Only you know the answer to that.
 
That's a state law question, so it depends on the state. But typically, nobody has an obligation to commence first aid on a stranger. (EMS is not a stranger.)

The fact that you caused the injury would not require you to administer first aid.

Once you commence first aid, your state may or may not have laws that protect a good samaritan.

The fact that you caused the injury MAY make you liable for a tort (you might be sued) for causing the injury, unless your state has a "stand your ground" law that makes you immune from being sued in a self defense case.

So if you make him bleed and you don't have a stand your ground law to protect you from a lawsuit, you could always try to make the bleeding stop so the damages won't be so bad. But if you don't have a good samaritan law to protect you, make sure you do a really good patch job on the hole you made.

No matter what you do, you'll be sued anyway. So make sure you carry your lawyer's card along with your gun.
 
As far as for nurses, each state has a nursing board that regulates conduct. Some state boards require that if you are aware of a medical need and "fail to act" you can be held liable. Even if you are the one that caused the injury. I also recall reading somewhere that rendering medical aid may help in any civil or legal proceedings that follow any shooting.
Remember how this will be used against you in court. If they find out that you have medical training and didn't do anything, the opposing counsel will make it look like you stood by and "let this person die" intentionally.
 
I would say even though you may not have a legal obligation, you have a moral one. That said, the first thing I would do is ensure that he/she was no longer a threat and render aid to anyone else that may have been injured (triage). Although it gets a little gray since I am also Fire/Rescue.

Don't forget though, the good samaritan law only protects you if you do things your trained to do. You generally can't be held responsible if you don't do anything especially if you have any reason that person may still be a threat. I would say its basically a judgment call based on the situation.
 
Very interesting question Special_K, and thank you for serving in the Guard.

This would probably depend on state or local laws.
 
most states have some law similar to the fl good Samaritan law... a person is only expected to render help up to the point at which they are trained... if they exceed that training, they cannot be held liable for mistakes they make... now if they are a trained first responder or MD, their training presumably includes drastic life saving measures and should they not save someones life, they could be held liable... my uncle is an MD and his typical response to witnessing a car accident is to call 911 and keep driving... hes not going to stop and risk loosing everything he owns for failing to save someone that isnt savable...
 
Do we have any medical obligation to try to save that persons life?
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Tactical considerations definitely come into play here. There are good reasons why EMT's will not approach a scene unless it's been fully secured.

1. Is the BG truly unable to carry on an attack against you should you get close enough to help? There have been cases where individuals on drugs or mentally ill have attacked and injured those trying to help them. Do you really want to get that close while you have a firearm that may be wrestled away from you? A fight for the BG's life may wind up being a fight for your life.

2. Blood borne pathogens. As a trained responder, you know about this but it bears repeating. The type of person that is likely to need shooting is probably the type of person at higher risk for carrying a variety of diseases.

3. Is the BG truly alone? It wouldn't be prudent to render aid without overwatch, someone to watch your back while you do so.

4. Can you contact EMS and police? I was taught as a first responder that starting the system in motion was more important than rendering immediate aid. If it takes a couple of minutes to get someone notified, do it.

After you've looked at all these tactical considerations, let your conscience and training be your guide. For most people in my CCW classes who are not trained medical personnel, I highly advise them not to render aid but to summon aid and wait. For those who are trained, it's up to them to be the judge of the tactical and medical circumstances.

From an LEO perspective, if I were alone, no way would I attempt to render aid, too many variables and too much vulnerability. If I had a partner, one of us would render aid while the other provided security. If you've got that, i.e., a partner or someone to cover you, then do what you feel is necessary.
 
Some good points above from C4 and sacp.

At a minimum, you need to call 911 and get the cops and emergency personnel on their way ASAP. That is your primary obligation IMO. If the response time sucks, that is not your problem, but don't delay making the call. It might tag you with some sort of wrongful death or negligence if you do.
 
Obligations & Protections

I have completed recurring training in first aid and CPR from the American Red Cross and Boy Scouts of America numerous times over the past 30 years, as well as one course in Wilderness First Aid several years ago. I must note that my most recent Red Cross classes were more than three years ago, so I am not considered "current."

IANAL, so this information is not authoritative, only advisory in terms of relating what ai recall from my past training. My recollection of that training includes the following:

1. Every state has a "good Samaritan law" that protects you when you choose to render aid. (Such a law does not prevent others from suing you, but does provide strong protection during the prosecution of a lawsuit.)

2. As a non-medical professional, you are never obligated to render aid. In fact, the training includes injunctions to use judgment on whether to act, lest you endanger yourself and thus create two victims where before there was only one.

3. In the case of CPR (and CPR only), while you are not obligated to begin giving CPR, should you choose to begin CPR, once underway you may not cease giving it until relieved by competent (trained) replacement who can continue, notified by competent medical personnel that CPR is no longer useful (e.g. formal declaration of death), or you are physically incapable of continuing (that is exhausted).

Note that this advice applies only to individuals not licensed and trained as medical professionals or para-professionals. I do not know how any of this appies to physicians, nurses, emergency medical technicians, etc. Thus, the OP needs to seek specific advice concerning future status as a nurse.


craig
 
my first gun I plan to get is some sort of 12 ga. If I ever had to shoot somebody with one from the close range allowed by my house, then I wont have to worry about helping him at all, because he's dead whether or not the blast kills him on the spot.

I also am not trained to render aid, so it'd be better not to in order to avoid any chance of a lawsuit.
 
The amount of Hep B and C, not to mention AIDS, in the prison system, is incredible. Considering any stranger likely to violently attack you more than likely has done so in the past, and quite likely done time. So, even if they are completely passive and unresiting, unless you carry complete PPE with you at all times, and use it perfectly, you may end up the "gift that gives until death do us part," if there is open blood around, and it gets into an open wound on you as you attempt to give aid...like a scratched knuckle.
 
My position is there is no way I would go near the guy due to the disease risk. I'm not a doctor, paramedic, or nurse. I have my Army First Aid training (was a combat lifesaver too), but in the typical scenario discussed here it is not worth the risk to put yourself in the position for any sort of fluid transfer between you and the wounded guy.
 
This answer does not directly address the question asked, but a tactical consideration of the aftermath. Since the paper trail to lawsuits (what a country!) and other consequences begins when you pull the trigger, I would suggest your first move would be to call 911 and beg for an ambulance for the perp, living or dead. You were forced to reluctantly defend yourself from immediate mortal danger as a last resort, right?
 
If you are required to sign an oath stating that you are legally required to save a life then yes you are obliged.
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Just what sort of oath would make it legally required to do this?

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From an standpoint of intentional harm, how are you going to be able to ascertain that the person no longer poses an intentional threat to you versus just playing possum and waiting to sucker you in closer for a second attack?

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Very good armoredman! Even though the bad guy may no longer be an intentional threat to you, if he has an open wound, then he still remains a threat to you because of the biohazard risk.

Just how many of us here carry a respirator, face shield, and latex gloves on their person. How about disinfectant?
 
Morals are opinions and therefore are not enforceable. Laws though are different. If you carry a gun for protection and someone harms someone in your immediate area (gas station) then you can be charged for not helping. I know, I know. It sounds bogus but I've heard of it happening more than once. However, if you don't carry a gun, they will not expect you to help. Also, if you're a doctor, nurse, EMT, lifeguard, nurse's assistant or anyone else that's had any formal emergency medical training even as basic as CPR, then you are mandated by law to assist if someone in your vicinity needs medical help. If you don't assist, you can and usually will be sued and/or jailed or both.
 
I am no expert on this, but I say if someone has posed such a dangerous threat to cause you to have to use your last resort to protect yourself. keep your distance until help arrives. The first aid procedure is check call care. Check the scene to make sure it is safe. If they were trying to kill you. the situation isn't safe.
 
First off Combat lifesaver training means nothing off post ( think I'm kidding? start an I.V. on someone even WITH their consent & watch what happens next) I was a Combat Lifesaver too as well as ADTMC certified & an EMT. the answer to your question is simple. Can you sit there and watch a human being die and do nothing to assist them? I couldn't do it. I'd have to render some type of aid
 
Rendering aid to somebody who tried to harm you? That just doesn't make sense. If you can't sit there and watch him die, then move away to a safe location where you don't have to watch.

However, if you don't carry a gun, they will not expect you to help. Also, if you're a doctor, nurse, EMT, lifeguard, nurse's assistant or anyone else that's had any formal emergency medical training even as basic as CPR, then you are mandated by law to assist if someone in your vicinity needs medical help. If you don't assist, you can and usually will be sued and/or jailed or both.
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What law?

Even if there is a law, it does not mean I have to perform such a service at any risk to myself. Just like EMTs aren't allowed into unsafe areas because of the risks posed to them (which isn't against the law apparently), I don't have to render any physical aid if it poses a risk to me. I simply don't carry around the necessary biohazard gear to perform said duties.
 
Threads like this tend to bring out the worst in people. Contrary to what you are hearing in this thread , taking the life of another human being ( Regardless of the words people use to de-humanize him the guy on your living room carpet is a human being) is serious, serious business. Unless there is something really wrong with your soul, it SHOULD be something you would want to avoid at all reasonable cost. I firmly agree W/ those who are advising you not to render aid unless you can do so safely. As a nursing student I'm sure you are familiar W/ UP ( as a matter of fact I DO have gloves & a recesi-guard in my aid bag) USE THEM. To restate my original question the person laying on you livingroom floor is a Human Being. Who regardless of what he did 2 minutes ago is in need of medical assistance. You can provide such assistance. it's your call
 
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