Personal Defense Obligations

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Jaenak said:
"or anyone else that's had any formal emergency medical training even as basic as CPR, then you are mandated by law to assist if someone in your vicinity needs medical help. If you don't assist, you can and usually will be sued and/or jailed or both."

Jaenak, your statement is exactly contrary to what I have been taught in formal Red Cross first aid and CPR courses numerous times. I challenge you to provide accurate and relevant citations of law or court cases to support your statement. Also, be careful about mixing up sued and jailed. Being sued is a civil court matter; being jailed is a criminal court matter. As far as I know, there is NO law anywhere that makes failure to render aid a criminal offense.
I will acknowledge that a fundamental truth of our adversarial legal system in the civil courts is that anyone can sue anyone for anything. The hope is that logic, along with justice, will prevail when outrageous suits are filed. In the case of providing aid to a stranger, Good Samaritan laws give a judge the basis for dismissing suits based on actions by a person rendering aid. IANAL, so I have to ask for lawyers here to comment on whether those same laws protect by-standers from lawsuits based on failure to act.

craig
 
In Minnesota it is as simple as this: Call 911 immediately, tell them where you are and that you were forced to defend yourself and that the Bad Guy is hurt and needs an ambulance. Give a description of yourself so the cops know who the good guy is.

At that point you hang up and call your lawyer and then say nothing to nobody.

After a situation like this you will probably not be in any frame of mind to handle anything too complex. Keeping it simple will keep you out of trouble.
 
As someone that has been involved in over 250 in-hospital arrests, I know a few things about CPR. The first one is that people who need it are often going to be throwing up.

I would do chest compressions if doing so did not expose me to blood. I would not do mouth to mouth on anyone I did not know, and if I did know you, well, you still may be SOL unless you're my wife or immediate family.

I do not carry a trauma kit with me. For those of you that have a "Ricky Rescue" kit with you, keep one thing in mind: you have the equipment with you, you are responsible for rendering care to the level appropriate with your training and that available equipment (I am in MN, YMMV). I personally am not going to like a Dr Blue situation without a biphasic defibrillator, my ACLS meds, good access, fluids....well, you get the point.

Call 911 and secure the area. If you're doing CPR, the guy you just shot's friends may be sneaking up on you.
 
This is my opinion, based upon my personal experience. It is long, but I think you may learn something from my experience:

After you wound someone in self defense:

You have a moral obligation to render at least first aid, if you know how to do so. You also have a moral obligation to render aid beyond that is you are so qualified. However, you have other obligations first - before rendering aid to someone you wounded in self defense or in defense of another innocent.

You have the obligation to ascertain that the area is clear of dangers to you and other innocents, this includes that the area be free of other dirt bags looking to do you harm, bad guys usually work in teams. YOU DO NOT WANT TO GET BLINDSIDED.

You have the obligation to secure the bad guy's weapon(s).

You have the absolute moral and common sense obligation to yourself, and to other innocents, to make sure that the bad guy has been stopped. This includes immobilizing the bad guy with restraints, even if you think he may be dead or mortally wounded. Remember that just a moment before he was a deadly threat, and just because he has stopped for the moment, does not mean he will remain so. If you cannot get the assistance of another person to do this, you will have to secure your weapon, and the bad guy's weapon, and then secure the bad guy yourself.

You have the obligation to yourself and others to explain what just happened and to request assistance. Have someone else call 911 - NOT YOU - if at all possible (you calling 911, and saying something stupid in the haste and excitement of the moment could be devastating to you in court later). Tell them to explain to the 911 operator that a BAD GUY HAS JUST BEEN STOPPED IN THE COMMISSION OF A VIOLENT FELONY (word it however applicable).

You have the self saving obligation to make sure that the person calling 911 gives them the description of the GOOD GUY - that would be YOU, and to make sure that 911 got it right. Tell the person to repeat to 911, that this is the description of the good guy.

Tell the person calling 911 to say that “YOU (meaning yourself) require immediate medical attention from a doctor.

Now help the guy. All the above should not have taken much more than a minute or two, maybe as little as 15 seconds.

If you do assist someone who is injured, you should say out loud, as you are doing it, what it is you are doing. It is just like CPR when you are taught to say what you are doing out loud. Checking for pulse, checking for breathing, and in a shooting - trying to stop bleeding, applying pressure to the wound, and so forth. Use a loud, slow, clear voice. This way they will not mistakenly think you are trying to kill the guy, or that you are in the process of going through his pockets to rob him, after just having shot him. Police who arrive on scene may also hear you saying this and thus be less likely to mistake you for a bad guy doing a bad thing. (At this point your weapon had best be put away and secure.)

You have the legal and moral obligation to await the arrival of law enforcement on the scene.

You have the obligation under law, and by way of common sense, to obey the commands of uniformed law enforcement officers - otherwise you may well end up STOPPED. If a uniformed cop yells out: "Police don't move, and you still have your gun out, you had better not move, not even to turn to look at him. Even if you are then unarmed, or armed and the weapon is secure, do not move. Follow their instructions, or you could wind up dead.

If a plain clothes officer is giving commands, ask to see some form of ID.

Remember the police are in control - not you.

Once the police are calm, request immediate medical attention from a doctor.

Upon arrival of the police, you do not have no to speak to the police other than telling them who you are, and such, and you can tell them you defended yourself against a life threatening situation. Let them know you are armed if they do not ask first, then calmly tell them so, but make sure your hands are in plain sight. Get it, that is all you say about what happened: "I defended myself against a life threatening situation." If they ask, did the guy have a gun, did he have a knife, did he have a brick - what do you say? You say: "Officer I will answer your questions upon advice of legal counsel. As for right now officer, I am requesting immediate medical attention, from a doctor. " You do not need to go into details. Tell the police you will speak to them in the presence of a lawyer. You do not need to go beyond that. Tell them you need the medical attention of a doctor immediately.

You have an absolute obligation to yourself to tell the police officers you want immediate medical attention from a doctor. You will not be well, believe me, even if you think you do fell okay, you will not be okay! Get that, understand that, you need immediate medical attention. Some of the things you may actually feel could be: chest pains, talkative, euphoric, talkative, headache, talkative, strong, talkative, hyped up, talkative, speedy, talkative, dizzy, talkative, faint, talkative, disoriented, talkative, hot, talkative, cold, talkative, weak, talkative, ready to pee your pants, talkative, wet in the pants back and or front, talkative, nervous, talkative, justified, talkative. I can almost assure you without a doubt - your pulse and blood pressure are probably abnormal all while you are feeling talkative. A wrong word here, a sentence you word poorly can be misinterpreted by police and later by a jury even though you mean it another way. Think about whether or not you want to possibly say something that will result in you going to jail for life if a police officer asks leading questions (and it is part of their job to ask questions, and leading questions are quite alright in law enforcement interrogations and interviews) and you blurt out something wrong. I do not mean something you did wrong, but that you somehow in the eyes of the law say it wrong even though you did it right, and meant to say something but just said it in a way that could be misconstrued.

Ask for immediate medical attention from a doctor.

Now of course, if there was another guy, a bad guy, you can and should tell police. If there is another victim requiring aid, do likewise – tell the police. Give a description, tell them if you think he was armed (reserve anything about the guy you just shot having been armed unless you actually have his gun and have secured it).

Ask for immediate medical attention.

When EMS arrives, when a paramedic show up, ask them for IMMEDIATE MEDICAL ATTENTION FROM A DOCTOR.

I was involved in a shooting once where I hit the bad guy. The shooting itself could fill pages, it is a long story, I like to blab. So I'll not go into it here except to say I was fully justified; AND I will go into the immediate aftermath because it is pertinent to this thread.

I started to blab like an opera singer to the police when they arrived. I was the center point of a semi-circle of several uniformed officers up to an NYPD Lieutenant. There were also at least a few detectives on scene. I answered every question they were asking me, I even answered the know-it-all who said if I actually hit the guy then surely I INTENTIONALLY must have shot him in the back based upon what I described because according to me (this is in the eyes of this one officer) I had shot the guy as he retreated, and I had back shot him. I never described it that way, not in any way shape or form, but officer Joe DipPoopy thought I had.

A regular officer arriving with a white shirt (the NYPD Lt.) suddenly burst into the middle of the semi circle, gets in my face, and I mean right in my face, and in an overwhelming loud and commanding voice he says to me: "Sir, do you require medical attention, I think you should seek immediate medical attention." He did that about 3 or 4 times, maybe even 5, and I did not know why. He added things like my blood pressure may be high and so on. I was having the hint slapped in my face, his face was a few inches from my face. He kept barking this out, and after each question from another one of the officers, he would again ask me if I wanted medical attention. It never made sense to me, not then anyhow, why he was doing this. He was doing this because I was being a blabbermouth. I had nothing to hide, but read again what I wrote above about Officer Joe DipPoopy and his conclusion after having heard my statements as to what had happened. I was exonerated of any wrong in this, but as Ralph Kramden would have said: “I have a Big Mouth!”. That could have screwed me over if more than that one officer had thought I was saying what he thought I was saying, and in fact had I shot the guy in the back which good for me I had not.

Now you may wonder why did that one officer get in my face and tell me to shut up when I as being interviewed/interrogated by the other officers and detectives on the scene - including a lieutenant. That was like stepping on his on willy, and stomping hard at that because NYPD lieutenants are like demi-gods. I don't know for sure; but my guess is that he found out I was another law enforcement officer on scene, and he reacted as he would for a coworker. You see I later learned he was a union representative of some sort with the Policeman's Benevolent Association (the NYPD police union). I asked some cops I knew about this later on. They assured me that anyone involved in a shooting is better off to ask for IMMEDIATE MEDICAL ATTENTION FROM A DOCTOR, then ask for a lawyer. Why from a doctor? Well, this is because it likely means they will have to take you to a hospital and get you out of what is potentially a hostile environment as would be your environment had you been being interrogated by an officer Joe Dip**** of your own; and even more importantly it assure you will be given prompt medical attention to rule out any life threatening condition that was a result of your having been involved in a traumatic (both physically and mentally) incident. Yes you will have been traumatized in some way if you shoot someone if you are a normal person.

I am in law enforcement myself; and I can tell you without a doubt: If I ever shoot anyone again, I may answer some questions on scene as I pointed out above, and I will remain polite and professional to any responding officers, but I will also make darned sure to request, and demand if need be, immediate medical attention from a medical doctor because now I know that after a shooting such is required to assure my own health and well being. Then I will ask for an attorney. Then, once it has been determined by a doctor that I am capable of being interrogated or interviewed, I'll answer more questions on the advice of my attorney.


All the best,
Glenn B
 
Attack Of The Medical Mall Ninjas

It has been my experience that people that need CPR ( which doesn't work 98% of the time) don't throw up , they lie on the floor like the dead bodies they are. I was reffering to such first aid as stopping bleeding getting vitals treating for shock. maybe hearing last words, ETC. ETC. ETC
AGAIN if you can't SAFELY render aid don't do it.
 
The person you have downed that has tried to kill or do serious bodily harm to you may be a human being, but the notion of deciding to try to save a human being who was bent on your destruction is just plain stupid. Just what sort of emotional weakness have we come to accept where saving the life of a person bent on your destruction is somehow a good idea? You want to justify it by saying the person is a "human being" or some such title? So what! That person is the human who was trying to kill you.

Call 911 from a safe place and let somebody s/he didn't try to kill save her/his life.
 
It has been my experience that people that need CPR ( which doesn't work 98% of the time) don't throw up , they lie on the floor like the dead bodies they are.

I worked for years as the house critical care circulating RN for a 700 bed hospital in Minneapolis. (I am still an ICU nurse there) As stated before, I have been directly involved in over 250 in-hospital arrests involving full-blown resuscitation efforts. I would kindly respond to your assertion that only two percent of people receiving CPR throw up by pointing out that, if that is your experience, you likely were doing something very wrong.

Don't believe me, just ask any ER nurse or Paramedic how they would like it if you took away their suction during a code.
 
Glenn, thanks for your input - easily one of the more important aspects every person that carries a concealed weapon for self-defense should be versed in.

On the topic of the particular question asked (render aid or no), my first priority will be the physical security of myself and loved ones. This means being alert to anyone else in the area, observing to make sure the original threat exists no longer, and keeping myself free of exposure to AIDS, Hep, or any other bloodborne pathogens the perp may expose me to.
 
Just what sort of emotional weakness have we come to accept where saving the life of a person bent on your destruction is somehow a good idea?
This is not emotional weakness, this is called morality and justice, If I did not kill him, then I cannot do so once he has stopped, not within the law. So I would want to save his life so he can spend most of the rest of it in jail, with a big hairy cell mate who likes guys. That would be morality truly winning out, in that the bad guy would be getting justice..
 
morality and justice...morals are opinions...not enforceable by law...

lol, the Democrats beg to differ.
 
The morality of self preservation should be applied...

The thought of saving the life of a criminal after he was about to take your's is a very gallant idea, but negates the whole point of defending your life with lethal force in the first place.

By getting too close to a person who was about to kill you seconds earlier, you are basically discarding any benefit that shooting him achieved in the first place. You initially put HIS life on the line for a reason: so YOU could survive. If your next move is to put your life at risk, -again- mind you, by getting close to the perpetrator then the moral grounds on which you based the decision of shooting him [saving your own life from an attack] come crumbling down. You took a life to preserve your own, and now you are about to throw it away to "help"? The "sacrifice" of the criminal's wellbeing (by shooting him) was in vain, because now you just might lose your life any way.

Simply put: if you are so concerned about the perpetrator's well being that you would in fact jeopardize your own safety to lend assistance, then you had no business shooting him in the first place.

Common sense dictates that assistance should be limited to requesting an ambulance after you have contacted emergency services (if you survived;)).
 
A lot of this really depends on the state. But in general most people have no duty to act. In fact if you choose to act then you put yourself at a higher risk of a lawsuit than if you did nothing. Once you do act you have "created a relationship" with your patient and MUST legally continue to act until a more trained individual takes over care. In some states EMTs do actually have a duty to act. Basic rule of thumb is, if you don't know what your doing then just call 911 and don't get in the way. If you do wind up getting higher trained most classes go over what are the legal requirements for you etc in the state your in. For example all three of the EMT classes I have been through have gone over legal requirements, etc.
 
I have to go with DoubleNaught on this.

What has this world come to that we now think we have to save the life of someone who just attacked us?
 
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