PG Only Shotguns and Hip Shooting 101...

[amd6547]

Fairly pathetic that this was hashed out in a thread not long ago, and then this anti PG thread is made a sticky.
To those with an open mind...
I have shot a PG shotgun for quite while...a couple decades. I have used a few different grips, from Choate, factory Mossberg, and Pachmayr rubber vindicator. My current set-up is the SpeedFeed Chickenhead grip, a straight PG similar to the grip used on the witness protection shotgun. This grip is far different in performance than the traditional PG...In use, it distributes the recoil much better, and, since it is held like a regular shotgun, does not interfere with the use of the Mossberg tang safety.
With my set-up, I have no problem hitting quickly and repeatedly using full power buck or slugs, at ranges out to 25yds.
Never got kicked by my shotgun...But then, even from the first shot a couple decades ago, I was never stupid enough to hold it in front of my face.
I am not saying that a PG shotgun is superior to a stocked shotgun, or that everyone should own one...For me ir serves a useful role, and I shoot it well.

 

[Rshooter]

I respect that a lot of long standing shotgunners believe PGO's are worthless. I realize my shotgun is actually a folding stock gun. I would stop any shotgunner from putting one of these beasts to his face or holding one like a pistol.

But guys I own one a folder and while I might not be able to beat Dave in a shotgun course with the stock folded I would meet him in my house at night with this gun. I have practiced with this gun, am confident with it, and I trust this gun. I also have a Mesa pistol grip and recoil reduced stock gun for my wife and another older police gun.

 

[Fred Fuller]

amd6547,

This thread was made a sticky along with all the other 101 threads in the process of compiling them into one easily accessible thread. That was the reason for it, and it didn't stay that way very long. I stickied it again when it showed back up, thinking it had been missed. But it was indeed on the list in the compilation thread, and is no longer stickied as an individual thread.

As to the utility of PGO shotguns, every individual has a perfect right to configure their own shotgun however they like. Just as they have a perfect right to either observe or ignore advice from any source whatsoever, whether invited or uninvited.

FWIW,

lpl

 

[amd6547]

I admit I am a bit touchy on the subject. I find the outright dismissal, disbelief, and vaguely insulting tone of the discussion, followed by grudging admission of "limited utility" to be annoying. Limited utility is all I claim for the PG shotgun, but, within that limited utility, it is an exceptional weapon.
The last time the subject came up, it went on for several pages of insult and vitriol by the anti-PG crowd. When the discussion finally became more reasonable, with more posts taking a positive tone, it was suddenly closed by McCracken.
The pistol grip shotgun has a long history of use dating back to the days of the blunderbluss.
A rational discussion of the proper technique for the employment of the PG shotgun would better serve the readers this thread claims to serve.

 

[Fred Fuller]

A rational discussion of the proper technique for the employment of the PG shotgun would better serve the readers this thread claims to serve.

Feel free to start one...

lpl

 

[earlthegoat2]

Dave,

You probably already know this, but you would get fired from any gun store you worked at.

 

[MAX100]

The heck with hip shooting a PGO shotgun. I have no problem aiming one and controlling it for follow up shots. I can't believe people hit themselves in the mouth trying to aim one. The same would happen if you held a handgun to close to your face.


GC

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Only way I could see it working is with a laser sight.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

I had a pistol grip on my 18" pardner pump 12ga for a little while. I did some shooting with target loads, and it was fun. Aiming without getting beat in the face every shot is possible if you have the size for it. I even fired it one handed one for the novelty of it. It certainly kicked but it wasnt painful (this was a true pistol grip, not a sawn off stock type grip. Had it been the latter im sure more pain would have been involved).
I have no interest in the pistol grip for any kind of defensive role, but if you're just shredding targets it can be fun to try.

 

[SN13]

Watched a guy shoot a shotgun stage with a PGO... stage even had flyers. He did alright until the crouching port where he got one to the face ..... He hit everything though and about as fast as the other pump guys with the stocks.

That being said, I have a folder and have never shot it PGO style.... hrm.

 

[Rshooter]

A rational discussion of the proper technique for the employment of the PG shotgun would better serve the readers this thread claims to serve.

Lee, I agree with you wholeheartedly but as it was pointed out by amd6547 a new member had requested information about using PGO's. Before any competent user of a PGO could answer him several persons who had very strong opinions about PGO's had already placed the thread on the way to being locked.

I would ask that if you do not like PGO's and you cannot keep your statement friendly, fatherly, or humorous to please not post on a thread discussing how to use a Pistol Grip shotgun effectively.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Earl, I couldn't care less. I AM a bad salesman. Way too honest.

As far as a "Fatherly" tone, I've attempted to steer new shooters away from stuff I regard as useless, dangerous, or just plain wrong. Still am.

And, I sure would like to find out where PGO shooters go to practice. It's been years since I last saw anyone getting in some practice with a PGO.

And since the folks who claim that they are walking death with a PGO shotgun need to hone those skills constantly, they must be practicing at secret ranges all over the country.

sarcasm mode off....

 

[amd6547]

.....

 

[oneounceload]

I made the mistake way back when and bought the 500 cruiser model - PGO....after a box or so of target shells, I ordered a synthetic stock which has been on it ever since. I still do have that pistol grip somewhere. I shoot thousands and thousands of shotshells a year and would not use a PGO.

If it floats your boat, have at it, but you won't be allowed to shoot it at the gun club I belong to - gun's too short

 

[amd6547]

Those who are unable to effectively employ the PG shotgun or are unwilling to learn how to do so properly should certainly stay away from them...just like any other firearm.
My previous post was deleted due to percieved insult...I hope my plain and simple statement above is not also misconstrued. No insult is intended by this PG shotgun user, who does not consider himself "walking death". I do take my PG shotgun out every few months and fire a few mags full of full power 00 buck in order to use up old ammo, confirm function, and keep up my own skill. No problem doing so at the private club I am a member of.
The shotgun for me is a special weapon. My own HD hierarchy begins with the handgun, which is what is most likely to be at hand if something goes bump in the night. Next up, is my CMP Inland M1 carbine. The shotgun is third in line.

 

[jojo200517]

I can usually average about 22 out of 25 from the hip at the skeet range, it really annoys the other shooters that are just trying to hit them from the shoulder. On the trap range it goes down to about 15 out of 25. After tens of thousands of rounds its kinda natural to know where your shotgun shoots from almost any position.

LOL yeah we refer to your type as a show off at my gun club. Do you do it from the hip with a full stock or do ya pull out the pistol grip only gun?

If you want real stares and strange looks get a top folding stock and a short barrel and go skeet shooting, and hey if you wanna go to pistol grip just fold it up.

 

[22_Shooter]

So what exactly is the point of the competition being propositioned in the OP?

I mean, I could understand if there were people outright saying that a PGO shotgun is far superior to a full stocked shotgun in every way possible. Offering them an opportunity to back up that claim would make sense.

I don't come around this board often, so maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen any PGO shotgun users claiming the above.

I gather that most people who buy/use PGO shotguns realize that they are, for the most part, a novelty.

What's the harm?

I just picked up my first pump, and when ordering some other stuff from Brownells for it, I tacked on a Hogue Tamer PG. Purely for poops-n-giggles.

I'm not going to throw out the original stock or anything, or claim the PGO setup is vastly greater than a normal stock..........and as much as I look at guns like tools........I still like to have some fun with then, in a safe manner, of course.

There's plenty of parts/accessories in the gun world that do nothing to improve actual performance to a firearm. That doesn't mean they won't have a use for someone, somewhere. Even if it is just for fun.

Live and let live.

That's my take on it.


(Side note: I've heard many great things about Hogue furniture, but haven't actually used any Hogue products. After feeling the PG and forearm I picked up for my new Pardner..........I almost want to swap out the PG's on my AK's and AR's for Hogue grips. They feel awesome.)

 

[Badger Arms]

With notable exceptions, the pro-PGO crowd seems to be pretty talkative, but not very 'showative'. Shooting both extensively, I can say that, without hesitation, even an average shotguner will out-gun a PGO expert any day of the week.

 

[amd6547]

I use the Hogue overmold forend on my PG shotgun, and find it far superior to other forends I have used. In fact, it is particularly effective in helping control the PG shotgun.
I also have the matching Hogue buttstock for those non-PG occasions.
Yes, a full stocked shotgun is superior to the PG shotgun in "most" situations, and easier for the novice to master.
But, if a full-stocked shotgun carrying bad guy comes in my house at 2am, unfamiliar with the layout of my place, he is in serious trouble if I am waiting with my PG shotgun. And what if the situation were reversed? I see a bad guy coming through my door at zero dark thirty carrying a PG shotgun...do I think "Oh, it's just a PG shotgun, my full stocked shotgun is so far superior, I have nothing to worry about..." I think not.

 

[22-rimfire]

I don't know about a 12 ga with buck shot... sounds painful to say the least.

When shooting from "the hip" are you actually cradling the gun just below your chest and "pointing" it or actually shooting from belt level or the classic "hip" as in the location you would shoot a six-shooter?

At one time I was pretty good pointing a 22 semi-auto rifle at targets to about 10-15 yds and coming close or very close. Used to practice on christmas light bulbs and stopped due to the glass issue as a kid. You could do the same thing with golf balls, tennis balls, shotgun shells whatever. Certainly a stationary man sized target would not be that difficult at that range. There is no recoil involved, so you can adjust as you need to with a followup shot. I think it would be easier with a rifle than a shotgun due to the recoil issue. It is the classic double tap approach. Maybe 20 ga shotgun but I don't want a pistol grip on the thing.

 

[amd6547]

Mine has the SpeedFeed chickenhead PG on it, which looks like a traditional buttstock that has been sawn off...it handles recoil much better and allows the use of my mossberg's safety.
I hold my PG shotgun at mid-chest level with a firm forward pressure on the forend and a steadying slight pressure to the rear on the pistol grip.. I point using the left, pump hand. I use standard slugs and full power 00 buck and it is not painful at all. The forward pressure on the Hogue forend and the chickenhead pistol grip do a fine job of mitigating recoil

 

[Dave McCracken]

22 shooter, the challenge I posted is basically a means of finding out who is telling the truth.

I'm, much to my dismay, rather a public figure these days. Some of the folks I shoot with are contributing members here.

Other folks I run across have googled "Shotguns" and tripped over the reams of stuff I've written.

Google BA/UU/R some time and note how many languages that turns up in now. Last count I did, four besides English.

So, if I'm a poseur and liar about shotguns, it should be obvious.

To everyone that knows shotgunning.

And the reason I'm so adamant about the relative ineffectiveness of PGO shotguns is my experience.

Out of 300 shooters or so in the original post, NONE did nearly as well with a PGO/folded folding stock as with a standard stock. Neither has anyone since, even if they have extensive experience and practice religiously.

That's real world data, not Net fantasies.

amd6547, I do not believe you.

Nobody, including yours truly, can shoot only a little every few months and maintain peak skills.

And not locking the forward elbow,IME, means the shot hitting high and left.

The ball is in your court....

 

[Southern Rebel]

Everytime I see comments from an individual touting their shooting abilities on a range and their numerous awards and their challenges to PGO shooters to come and shoot against them in a contest, I am reminded of the movie "The Dirty Dozen".

Their is a pompous army general who requested a "review" of his men in their finest attire and the bogus general inspecting them turns to the officer and says, "very pretty, general, very pretty - but can they fight?"

I guess AMD we need the same privilege of letting them defend their choice of a stocked shotgun and then we will choose a tank - then deride them for their choice of a "useless" weapon against a far superior one!

We could even turn it into a Ponzi scheme of ridiculing guns as being useless, starting at the bottom with a pellet gun and allowing each succeeding layer of upsmanship. This would allow us to eliminate the 22's, 32's, 9 mm's, 40's, 45's, 44 mags, and on and on until the ultimate winner is maybe standing in a missile silo with the ultimate nuclear weapon and a button to push.

The point being that if you ain't the guy holding the ultimate button, there will always be someone with a weapon less efficient than yours and someone with a weapon more efficient. There is no ultimately better weapon (sorry Glock guys - somebody had to tell ya', and by the way there ain't no Santa either!).

If I were really on a high road, I would never ridicule a fellow gunowner who has chosen a 22 pistol as his/her weapon for personal defense and tell him that it is useless and a stupid choice. It certainly wouldn't be my choice and I would feel free to express that opinion, but not in such a demeaning way that I would close his mind to further discussions.

 

[amd6547]

There is no reason to accuse anyone of lying, which is counter to the high ethical standards of The High Road.
I have never claimed the superiority of the PG shotgun, in fact I have quite plainly stated the opposite.
I am no professional shooter or competitor. I am a 52 year old family man who must pay for every round I shoot, who has been shooting since the age of 4 or 5 when my WWII veteran Father put a single shot 22 rifle loaded with a CB cap in my hands.
The shotgun is a tertiary weapon for me...I much prefer the handgun and semi-auto carbine for my particular HD/SD needs. In some situations, the shotgun has it's uses, but I largely prefer the carbine. While I own both an AK and an AR, my CMP M1 carbine is my preferred long arm for HD.
Still, I own a Remington Model 11 semi auto 12ga riot gun, and a Mossberg 500 equipped with the chickenhead PG. I shoot both very well. When I stand 20 feet in front of the target and pull the trigger on my Mossberg, the 00 buck hits where I am pointing. I cycle through the ammo in the mag, reload and do it agian, and move on to the carbine and the handgun. Good enough for me.
We all make our own choices for SD weapons. If you don't like PG shotguns, don't use them. But don't try to tell me they don't work for the use I put mine to and accuse me of lying about it.

 

[swampboy]

I don't see how anybody could have been offended by Mr McCracken's commentary or tone. I've found his posts, and I've read pretty much all of them over the years, to always be well written and informative. If his tone comes across as "fatherly", and sometimes it does, I find that tone to be a welcome enhancement to his writing style. I also assume that that tone (while sometimes "fatherly", is never condescending) has apparently been earned over a lifetime of shotgunning.

While I'm at it, it deserves to be mentioned that I've thoroughly enjoyed Mr Lapin's posts over the years as well.

FWIW, my own (although short-lived) experiments with PGO SG's have been unpleasant. Mr M DID allow that a certain degree of proficiency can be achieved with a PGO SG, albeit requiring of much more time and effort than with a standard gun. I think his colorful challenge was more to make a point than anything, although I believe he could probably back it up if he needed to.