PG Only Shotguns and Hip Shooting 101...

[amd6547]

You, of course, have not been called a liar...Nothing fatherly there. I have been nothing but reasonable throughout.
I have used three different PG's...The Choate, the factory Mossberg, and the rubber Pachmayr Vindicator. That was across several decades of shooting, though the Choate M16 style grip was my least favorite, belonging to my shooting buddy. He, by the way, carries his Choate equipped PG Mossberg slung under his M65 field jacket along with his Browning Hi Power when he checks out his property...anyone would be in serious trouble if he shot at them with either. I have also used a folder, both folded and open.
Compared to all of those, the SpeedFeed chickenhead is a completely different experience.
Have any of you PG doubters tried a witness protection style chickenhead grip? If the answer is no, then what is your frame of reference to question it's performance? It handles recoil better, it points better, it is superior in every way other than making absolute minimum length.

 

[Jack2427]

What Dave said ++++++. I have lugged weapons professionally since my 17th birthday. Lugged them over 4 major land masses, I can see only one use for a non traditional stock SG, carrying them in a vehicle, vessel or aircraft and deploying the folding stock ASAP after emerging therefrom.
I have killed my bear, a near record Brownie in AK in 95. Put him down with a single shot 45/70 from 35 feet-feet not yards. I will never hunt bear again, they are magnificant animals, and I have had my moment. But I have a healthy respect for any bear, Black, Brown, Grizz, whatever-even a Panda-I don't know what a Panda can do, but I don't want to find out(yeah I know, they are really not bears).
I know, absolutely, what must be done to stop a charging hostile bear, and that is a brain or spine shot with a deep penetrating slug. This on an animal that could weigh over half a ton(quite a bit over), and is moving at 30 MPH with no effort at all.
Somehow to me this lets out a PGO shotgun, because it calls for precision shooting, absolute precision. And it calls for penetrating a massive brain pan that can take direct hits from many weapons without fracturing, and penetrating absolutely massive muscle structure of the back. I just don't see this from a PGO SG.
I do see a shotgun loaded with sabot slugs doing it, placed with precision from a rifled barrel using a really hard slug. I do see a 45/70 doing it with the appropriate hard slug, I even see a 45-44 caliber handgun doing it with the proper load/bullet placed with precision.
And a PGO shotgun is the anthisis of precision. Any accuracy with a PGO is trick shooting, and while the Oakley lady, and many others are unreal in their ability, I have never seen or heard of any of them use a PGO.
Early in my LE career I was issued an Ithaca Auto-Burglar gun, a really sawed off 20 gauge double. We were to stake out a supermarket that was going to be robbed. It fit nicely under my apron-thats right I was to impersonate a store employee and hang around the registers with a mop-and my guns.
It worked, really worked, at a range of less than 2 feet, any further and it would have been really iffy.
Sorry PGO guys, I am sure that some of you are quite good at trick shooting, but tricks can fail. My guns can't.

 

[Dave McCracken]

For the record....

AMD, I did NOT call you a liar and I'm not doing it now..

I do not believe you when you say you can be effective shooting only a few rounds every few months. I don't believe anyone can.

I believe you are mistaken rather than blowing smoke.

And yes, I have tried out a Witness Protection style grip and regard it as more comfortable than the neoprene jobs, but it's still not as good as a standard stock, IMO.

Were I required to have a PGO for some weird reason, it'd more likely be that style.

Jack, thanks for your input. I did fire a 20 gauge Auto Burglar once. Vicious little kicker and at 3 yards, devastating.

It took several seconds to get that thing back under control for the second barrel. I declined furhter testing.

Let me say this. If someone, for whatever reason, wants to play around with a PGO for fun, I shan't cavil.

But, when we're talking tools, the PGO is not the first or best pick for almost every mission or shooter..

 

[MAX100]

How many shots will fired in a home defense situation two at the most maybe. Would I use a PGO shotgun for HD sure.

Many use only a handgun for home defense.

I can hit man size moving target a lot easier aiming a PGO shotgun than a handgun.

Some get bent out of shape when talking about PGO shotguns.

GC

 

[shiftyer1]

I currently own a mossberg 500 pgo shotgun. I bought it and an 870 as a package deal for the price and because I loved playing with one as a teenager. I keep it as a truck gun. I can hit 2 liter bottles from 15-20 feet with birdshot most of the time if i'm taking my time. Would I use it in a pinch.....yes. Would I recommend it........NO. Nowdays they must be making birdshot more powerful because the recoil seems to bother me more when I shoot it. lol Anyway for me personally I can shoot a whole lot better and more comfortably with a full stock.

I am looking to swap it for a full stock so if anyone in the austin tx area needs a pgo stock for a mossberg 500a 12ga and would like to swap for a full buttstock let me know. It just ain't my thing. Must be my age.

 

[22_Shooter]

What Dave said ++++++. I have lugged weapons professionally since my 17th birthday. Lugged them over 4 major land masses, I can see only one use for a non traditional stock SG, carrying them in a vehicle, vessel or aircraft and deploying the folding stock ASAP after emerging therefrom.
I have killed my bear, a near record Brownie in AK in 95. Put him down with a single shot 45/70 from 35 feet-feet not yards. I will never hunt bear again, they are magnificant animals, and I have had my moment. But I have a healthy respect for any bear, Black, Brown, Grizz, whatever-even a Panda-I don't know what a Panda can do, but I don't want to find out(yeah I know, they are really not bears).
I know, absolutely, what must be done to stop a charging hostile bear, and that is a brain or spine shot with a deep penetrating slug. This on an animal that could weigh over half a ton(quite a bit over), and is moving at 30 MPH with no effort at all.
Somehow to me this lets out a PGO shotgun, because it calls for precision shooting, absolute precision. And it calls for penetrating a massive brain pan that can take direct hits from many weapons without fracturing, and penetrating absolutely massive muscle structure of the back. I just don't see this from a PGO SG.
I do see a shotgun loaded with sabot slugs doing it, placed with precision from a rifled barrel using a really hard slug. I do see a 45/70 doing it with the appropriate hard slug, I even see a 45-44 caliber handgun doing it with the proper load/bullet placed with precision.
And a PGO shotgun is the anthisis of precision. Any accuracy with a PGO is trick shooting, and while the Oakley lady, and many others are unreal in their ability, I have never seen or heard of any of them use a PGO.
Early in my LE career I was issued an Ithaca Auto-Burglar gun, a really sawed off 20 gauge double. We were to stake out a supermarket that was going to be robbed. It fit nicely under my apron-thats right I was to impersonate a store employee and hang around the registers with a mop-and my guns.
It worked, really worked, at a range of less than 2 feet, any further and it would have been really iffy.
Sorry PGO guys, I am sure that some of you are quite good at trick shooting, but tricks can fail. My guns can't.

You're reply makes me think that you read:

A) That someone recommended a PGO shotgun for bear hunting.
B) That someone said a PGO shotgun is the epitome of precision.

I've seen neither in this thread.


You say you "only see one use for a non-traditionally stocked SG." But who are you to say what use something has, to someone else? No one, as far as that is concerned.

 

[amd6547]

Well Dave, that is certainly more polite. Rather than lying, I am now mistaken...
If I were a professional lawman with a survival and job performance stake in my PG shotgun shooting ability, I would no doubt practice a lot more. No doubt, there.
However, I am not. I am a 52 year old truck driver who takes my, and my families self defense seriously. As I said, I also consider the shotgun, either stocked or otherwise to be a tertiary weapon. I shoot many more rounds through my handgun and carbine than my shotguns.
Call it my "mutant talent", if you will, but I have very good abilities with firearms...of all types. I am able to hit with my PG shotgun at what I consider reasonable and realistic ranges...25yds and less for the PG Mossberg. That's all I care about. I am much more likely to use my Beretta 92FS or my M1 carbine, they give me the ability to apply accurate fire from point blank to 100yds (yes, the Beretta also, I like to shoot pistols out to 100yds).
I only get involved in these PG shotgun debates because of the blanket dismissal and insulting tone posted by those who are unable to employ them properly, when I have no problem doing so. The stocked shotgun IS a superior weapon. But, for me at least, and a few others here, the PG shotgun is also a superior weapon...Particularly for close range indoors SD.
Should a complete novice buy a PG shotgun and call themselves well armed, having never practiced with SD ammo, or learned the proper technique? Of course not. Is it within the realm of possibility that a decent shot having fired the PG shotgun over a period of decades can put buckshot on target at reasonable ranges? Certainly.
Let us just agree to disagree. I don't think we are really that far apart in our opinion.

 

[dom1104]

The stocked shotgun IS a superior weapon. But, for me at least, and a few others here, the PG shotgun is also a superior weapon...Particularly for close range indoors SD.

uh...ok whatever my head cant get around this whole argument.


In my opinion, there is really no reason for PG shotguns at all, with the high quality folding stocks available, their only benefit, which was storage is removed.

Also, what difference does it make wether the weapon is "primary" "secondary" or "Tertiary"?

I would like all of my weapons no matter what order I pick them up in to be at the top of their game.

Not to mention, if I was not at home, and an invader came at my wife, I would not like her 104 lb body to have to deal with my "tertiary" weapon, a PGO shotgun.

Thats just my opinion, but really, going against McCracken in a shotgun argument is something I cant do for another , oh I dunno, 900 THOUSAND shells.

 

[PJR]

We've been around this PGO discussion many times before. My advice is to ignore the advice of anyone and find out for yourself. Buy a PGO, install it and run a few hundred rounds through the gun and see if it works for you.

There may be some people who can successfully employ them that doesn't mean everyone can or should. I have yet to see anyone with a PGO shoot it as well as a full stocked shotgun no matter how much they've practiced with it. But then everyone shoots better at the keyboard.

The PGO does make the shotgun more compact but so does a folding stock or a shorter barrel. If storage space is the concern I'll choose my 14" barrel with a full stock as it is significantly better than a PGO and not much larger.

 

[Guns and more]

There is a place for the folding or stock-less shotgun, but these are for very special, very limited circumstances.

I agree.
Like maneuvering in dark narrow spaces in a house.
That's what mine is for.
I don't shoot skeet or birds.
If I did, I'd get a full stock.



I've seen people selling "The ultimate home defense shotgun." When you read the ad, it's a single shot with full furniture. HUH?

If storage space is the concern I'll choose my 14" barrel with a full stock as it is significantly better than a PGO and not much larger.

I could be wrong, but I thought 18" was the legal limit for a shotgun. A court might frown on your 14"er.

 

[rbernie]

A court might frown on your 14"er.

You can legally have an SBS if you pay Uncle Sam his taxes and submit to the paperwork drill.

Like maneuvering in dark narrow spaces in a house.
That's what mine is for.

Ask yourself - what do the guys who get paid to maneuver in dark narrow spaces of a house, and who could chose any weapon suitable for that purpose, use? Is it a PGO shotgun?

 

[SN13]

We're hoping he has all the proper paperwork regarding the 14".

 

[SN13]

Ask yourself - what do the guys who get paid to maneuver in dark narrow spaces of a house, and who could chose any weapon suitable for that purpose, use? Is it a PGO shotgun?

no, it's not a PGO, it's a sub-machine gun... but I'm sorry, a $300 mossy is easier to acquire than a $20,000 MP5.

 

[dirt_j00]

MP5?

 

[Justin]

I hold my PG shotgun at mid-chest level with a firm forward pressure on the forend and a steadying slight pressure to the rear on the pistol grip.. I point using the left, pump hand. I use standard slugs and full power 00 buck and it is not painful at all.

Mid-chest level from one presumable index point on your body? So, what do you do in the event you have to shoot around a barricade/wall? What do you do if you have to shoot through a low or high port that requires you to shoot from an unusual or improvised position?

And, if you're so firmly convinced that PGO shotguns are useful, why not take Dave up on his challenge, or, if travel costs are prohibitive, design set up, and with a shot timer, make a run through your course of fire and post video of it on YouTube?

If you were to make the plans for your Course of Fire available to everyone, then others could set up the same exact stage and make runs through it with their firearms as well, post videos of them, as well as their times.

Or, if that's too much, hunt down a local Steel Challenge Match, and have someone shoot video of your runs. You can then upload them to YouTube and post your scores here. SCSA matches are held nation wide, and the stages are exactly the same anywhere you go, so it would be very easy to use SCSA as a base metric to get an idea of the relative effectiveness of everyone's chosen platform.

 

[rbernie]

no, it's not a PGO, it's a sub-machine gun...

Actually, most of 'em use M4s or M4 clones. With full stocks.

 

[amd6547]

I could do that, or I could run the same course with my M1 carbine and "prove" that it is superior to a stocked shotgun...
I mean, really.
Use what you like, as will I. There is no reason to prove anything to anybody. But if it is posted that a PG is impossible to use effectively to the point of being virtually worthless, I will, in the face of being called a liar and mistaken, politely disagree.

 

[Justin]

I could do that, or I could run the same course with my M1 carbine and "prove" that it is superior to a stocked shotgun...

Well, why not run an M1 Carbine? If you are indeed better at using an M1 carbine, why wouldn't that be your go-to gun?

But if it is posted that a PG is impossible to use effectively to the point of being virtually worthless, I will, in the face of being called a liar and mistaken, politely disagree.

If you make such a claim, and others question it, then the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate the effectiveness that you claim. Furthermore, I don't see what the problem is with quantifying in some manner the effectiveness of a person's ability to use one particular platform and compare it against other platforms. You've claimed that you're "effective" with a PGO shotgun. Some of us are curious as to what the definition of "effective" is. How do you quantify that? How does it stack up against other platforms? And if it doesn't stack up well, then what's the primary driving point for choosing one as a defensive weapon?

Lord knows that I couldn't have been described as able to effectively employ any weapon at the first three gun match I attended. But I took the lessons I learned there and built on them. That's all we're looking for here. If you have knowledge or skills that are above average, then why not demonstrate them so that we might all learn? I mean, there are over fifty videos on YouTube of me running the courses of fire at various matches. Some of them I tank badly. Some I do alright. But I'm at least willing to put the stuff out there for others to see and critique.

 

[rbernie]

But if it is posted that a PG is impossible to use effectively to the point of being virtually worthless, I will, in the face of being called a liar and mistaken, politely disagree.

Interestingly, I do not think that was exactly what was stated. What was stated was that, in a course of fire simulating field/sporting or defense usage, the PGO shotgun will be harder to use and less effective than a traditional stocked shotgun. That worldview has been determined by professional trainers over time, and has yet to be demonstrated as false. Anyone who claims that a PGO shotgun can be more effective than a stocked shotgun for anything but carryin' has likely never invested equal time in both or is obfuscating the truth. You get to decide which of those two fit.

That does not say that PGOs are not fun, that they are evil or bad, that they do not have specialty roles for breeching or somesuch, or that nobody can shoot them effectively at all. If you have one and enjoy shooting it - that's great. It's all good, when playing around on the range.

But there is empirical training data to indicate that, given equal training time with both PGO and stocked shotguns, stocked shotguns can be used more effectively for SD and field. And trying to convince folks that a PGO is more effective for SD than a stocked shotgun smacks of recklessness that is not particularly High Road.

If you're good with a PGO shotgun, by your definition - that's terrific. But your definition of 'good' and those folks who use shotguns in anger are clearly different.

 

[Justin]

I take it as a given that a PGO shotgun is going to be much less effective at quickly engaging targets in pretty much every scenario one could think of short of contact distance in a phone booth.

What I'm interested in seeing is just how wide the gap is between PGO-shotguns and properly stocked ones. In my experience, I would submit that difference would be much more dramatic than some would like to admit.

 

[6-gunfun]

i have hit targets with a hip shot my best was a rabbit running through brush i turend fired and it was dead however that was with a .410 cilinder choke and 7 1/2 shot it spreads so far its hard 2 miss

 

[PJR]

You can legally have an SBS if you pay Uncle Sam his taxes and submit to the paperwork drill.

Or live in a jurisidiction where they are treated like any other shotgun providing the barrels are not cut short but came that way from the factory.

 

[amd6547]

If you apply coventional thinking to an unconventional weapon, you will never see it's value.

 

[rbernie]

If you insist that your playing field is somehow different from everybody elses', you should be prepared for the scoffing and guffawing that follows.

 

[amd6547]

I'll think about that the next time I am laying 00 buck patterns on target at 20 feet.
You ought to read your sig line...