PG Only Shotguns and Hip Shooting 101...

[amd6547]

Oh come now...there is no reason to go there. I happen to be very picky about my shooting equipment. That is why I also own a Remington Model 11 riot gun...A firearm designed by Browning at his most brilliant. A self loading shotgun made of machined steel which I shoot very well, and which I love (I must, it is my second one). Yet, when I have moved around my small two bed room house with my Model 11, it was quickly proven to my satisfaction that my PG Mossberg is a better choice indoors.
I ask again, If you encountered a bad guy at close range pointing a PG shotgun at your midsection, would you relax and say to yourself "PG shotguns are worthless weapons, I don't have anything to worry about"?

 

[rbernie]

If you encountered a bad guy at close range pointing a PG shotgun at your midsection, would you relax and say to yourself "PG shotguns are worthless weapons, I don't have anything to worry about"?

Worthless? No. But less effective than a fully-stocked shotgun, especially against rapidly moving targets (of which I would do my best to emulate)? Absolutely.

 

[amd6547]

Non-answer.
Let's say this bad guy has the drop on you, he is 20 feet away, locked in a firing stance with his PG shotgun pointing at you. Your stocked shotgun is in a low ready pointing off to the side, or you have your 1911 cocked and locked in the holster...You really believe you will dodge that load of buckshot? You better get your family a good insurance policy.

 

[Justin]

I ask again, If you encountered a bad guy at close range pointing a PG shotgun at your midsection, would you relax and say to yourself "PG shotguns are worthless weapons, I don't have anything to worry about"?

Straw man argument. No one made the argument that being shot with a PGO shotgun would not cause a wound or death. The argument is that they are considerably slower to use and much harder to aim quickly and accurately than a shotgun with a proper stock.

Non-answer.
Let's say this bad guy has the drop on you, he is 20 feet away, locked in a firing stance with his PG shotgun pointing at you. Your stocked shotgun is in a low ready pointing off to the side, or you have your 1911 cocked and locked in the holster...You really believe you will dodge that load of buckshot? You better get your family a good insurance policy.

I love how all of the proposed scenarios involving PGO shotguns seem to have a built in requirement that the person wielding the PGO shotgun gets the drop on their intended target.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

I ask again, If you encountered a bad guy at close range pointing a PG shotgun at your midsection, would you relax and say to yourself "PG shotguns are worthless weapons, I don't have anything to worry about"?

This question is absurd. It is as though you see an item's usefulness in a bizarre binary fashion where it is either completely worthless or equally effective to all other items of a similar purpose. Your criteria could be equally applied to a hot waffle iron swung by the cord, a Mason jar of sulfuric acid, or two rabid raccoons tied together at the tail and thrown bolo style. While I would certainly worry if anyone aimed said "weapons" at my midsection, I wouldn't consider any of those an effective choice for home defense. (The success of the DOD tests regarding infected raccoons in the 50's notwithstanding, of course.)

Your second scenario sounds like a Mad Lib.

Let's say this bad guy has the drop on you, he is a number feet away, locked in a firing stance with his a weapon pointing at you. Your another weapon is in a low ready pointing off to the side, or you have your a handgun cocked and locked in the holster...You really believe you will dodge that projectile from first weapon? You better an ominous warning.

Here's mine!

Let's say this bad guy has the drop on you, he is 7 feet away, locked in a firing stance with his replica medieval cross bow pointing at you. Your AGM-114 is in a low ready pointing off to the side, or you have your Magnum Research BFR in .45-70 cocked and locked in the holster...You really believe you will dodge that crossbow bolt? You better make sure your pet fish have one of those little vacation feeder things until your next of kin is notified and can come over to feed them.

 

[Guns and more]

We'll shoot for score, time decides ties

If I was in an open field, shooting at targets, I'd take a full stock shotgun too.
Or birds, or skeet, or trap (whatever the difference is).
I have my P/G shotgun for one purpose, negotiate corners and doorways, shots less than 20', inside a house, maybe in the dark.
I'll guarantee you're a better shot than I am. How does that help me when someone is breaking in? You're not gonna be there!
Do I want to lead with a gun too big to turn around in a doorway and risk having it jerked out of my hands?
I fail to understand why the anti's get all stirred up about MY choice. And right now, it's short barrel, P/G.
I'm just glad I still have the freedom to choose.

 

[amd6547]

Obviously, the plethora of ridiculing non-answers is a defacto admission that the PG shotgun at close range indoors is a fearsome weapon in the hands of one who knows how to shoot one.
I think we are done, here.

 

[Southern Rebel]

OK Jorq and AMD, you guys have finally nailed the answer I was looking for in these discussions. What it REALLY comes down to is the following:

Who has the drop on WHOM?

Can the dropee (???dropor???) hit what he is aiming at?

Does the weapon he carries have sufficient stopping power?

And to think we have wandered thru the "valley of the shadow of death" arguing about shooting trials, youtube videos, and who knows what else - and the whole time, somebody should have been telling me to just BE DANG SURE you are the one that gets the drop on the other guy!

I should have remembered that from my youthful days of watching Hopalong Cassidy, Kit Carson, Lash Larou, Roy Rogers, and all the rest of those guys who were constantly allowing the bad guys to get the drop on them.

I have reviewed my home defense setup and I find the following facts:

1. I have a dog and an alarm to let me know "he" is on his way in.

2. He has to come down a three foot wide hallway for about 15 feet and then choose between three different rooms as to where I await him. I feel the odds are in my favor to get the drop on him.

3. Our knowledgeable moderator (I readily admit to that part) has given assurances that OO buckshot is sufficient power in a close encounter.

4. I have practiced sufficiently with my woefully inadequate PGO such that I can without fail hit my target within the range of the aforementioned hallway.

Given all the above, I now feel secure in the knowledge that my PGO can handle this one special circumstance adequately. Now, if I move to a different home, I will agree to reassess all of the above. If I am outside the confines of the the above special circumstances, I will agree to assess whether to be accompanied by either my 357 SIG or 44 Magnum Redhawk or 45 Ruger or Remington 1100 (stocked) or 30 carbine or 223 Bushmaster or....
(Now I am sounding like my teenage years and girls - so many choices and so little time!)

(I just have this feeling that neither AMD nor I are ever gonna change our HD weapons, but I have to admit I have acquired some interesting and helpful information during these PGO discussions in spite of having to filter out a little bit of sarcasm. I guess that is like cowboy coffee - very invigorating, even if you have to filter out a few unusable grains!)

 

[meytind]

Let's say this bad guy has the drop on you, he is 7 feet away, locked in a firing stance with his replica medieval cross bow pointing at you. Your AGM-114 is in a low ready pointing off to the side, or you have your Magnum Research BFR in .45-70 cocked and locked in the holster...You really believe you will dodge that crossbow bolt? You better make sure your pet fish have one of those little vacation feeder things until your next of kin is notified and can come over to feed them.

I believe Jorg wins the thread.

 

[amd6547]

Sure, If you prefer absurd non-answer to rational discussion.
I prefer practicality, both in my shooting and my discussion. I really don't care who "wins" or "loses" this thread.
I believe that this final point we have so tortuously arrived at, enduring ridicule and threats of banning along the way, is the most revealing.
If you are facing a PG shotgun in a gun battle, you better be aware that you are facing a very serious threat. If you don't believe that, you are dead wrong.
Conversely, that same weapon in your hands, properly employed and with practice, can be an equally serious danger to someone who threatens your security.

 

[9x19sig]

PGO shotgun + low recoil buckshot + a little practice = you win

 

[Justin]

I prefer practicality, both in my shooting and my discussion.

Again, I reiterate, why not run some tests to determine the practical applicability of PGO shotguns vs. a properly stocked shotgun?

If the practicality is so self-evident to you, then proving it shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[amd6547]

Beginning the circle again, Justin? No one has ever claimed that a PG shotgun is superior to a stocked shotgun...this has been stated again and again. There has, finally been some grudging ackowledgement that the PG shotgun just may have it's place. Why not end it at that?

 

[Justin]

Because I'm genuinely curious as to why people are so willing to use a weapon for personal defense that they themselves admit is an inferior choice.

 

[Leadhead]

......software....no hardware.......software? hardware? dang it it's all so confusing!

Security is about what we are comfortable with.....if a guy is comfortable with his PGO shotgun then more power to him.....if another guy want's a full stock because he shoots better with it then I say more power to him!

If some other guy is happy with a baseball bat and doesn't dig firearms...well that's fine too.

 

[Leadhead]

Because I'm genuinely curious as to why people are so willing to use a weapon for personal defense that they themselves admit is an inferior choice.

Most people will never use a shotgun in self defense but having one handy does bring some peace of mind and if it's small it can be tucked away in inconspicuous places...

I think the argument a rises because the PGO haters tend to use terms like useless and doorstop etc which only proves their ignorance.

As Dave and others have mentioned there are special uses such as hiking, camping and fishing when you can't have a revolver ( like in Canada) as the PGO is more compact and lighter then a full stock. Or for specific forced entry requirements.

Bottom line is if it works for someone and they are comfortable with it for home defense then what's the problem?

They are also fun to shoot.

Mine's a birdshead and it works for me.

 

[Rshooter]

Justin, I answered your question and you avoided admitting that I answered your question with more questions.

Luck and home court advantage are certainly good things to have on your side, but are not an effective replacement for good skills and the proper tools.

I am properly trained with a pistol grip shotgun and it is the proper tool in some environments, as you could not deny my answer was correct.

I never said a PGO shotgun wasn't deadly, but the question that I'd like to see answered is "What is the difference in practical employment of a PGO shotgun vs. a properly stocked one?"

A PGO as we now both agree can be used much like a pistol in a home invasion environment where the stock of a shotgun may be unwanted. Gunners choice.

The secondary question would be whether or not the step down in speed/performance is offset by the perceived advantages of having a smaller weapon.

Yes I lose the option of a buttstroke but I am no longer in the Marines here but merely a disabled veteran.

 

[rbernie]

I've cleaned up this thread a bit, to try and keep it focused.

I don't think anyone is arguing that a PGO shotgun is faster than the stocked shotgun. The question is: is it too slow in skilled hands to be used in a HD situation. I say no.

Let's accept this as true. Doesn't matter if everyone buys into the virtues of the PGO - I'm going to accept them as valid for the purposes of asking the next logical question to this train of thought....

Waterhouse demonstrated that a conventional shotgun can be carried and used as you would a PGO shotgun, and in that mode the conventional shotgun will demonstrate all of the same virtues claimed for a PGO shotgun. But the conventionally-stocked shotgun can be fired as a shoulder-mounted long arm, while the PGO shotgun cannot.

So I ask - why choose a solution for HD that has a lesser capability (hip/point shooting only) when you can have a solution that allows both hip/point shooting if desired as well as shoulder-mounting shooting?

I can see how breaching and backpacking would place a premium on space/weight (making the PGO shotgun useful), but frankly my HD shotgun occupies the same space in the corner (or propped up between the bed and nightstand or however else I store it) regardless of the presence/absence of a buttstock.

Bottom line is if it works for someone and they are comfortable with it for home defense then what's the problem?

I don't think that I've seen much call in this thread to make PGO shotguns illegal or otherwise unaccessible. In fact, several folk have gone out of their way to express how PGO shotguns can have several uses and in general can be fun to shoot. But there seems to be a behavior on the part of the PGO proponents that insists that everybody accept their choice of PGO shotgun as the best possible choice for home defense, and that's where the rub comes in.

I find it interesting that the PGO proponents are crying 'foul' when all I've seen from the conventionally-stocked shotgun proponents is a willingness to accept the limited virtues of the PGO shotgun IF the PGO proponents will accept that their tool is severely limited in scope and utility. Seems to me that we keep going in circles because every time we almost have a truce, the (few) PGO protagonists have to throw gasoline on the fire by refusing to logically debate the issue and instead reverting to comments like this:

Obviously, the plethora of ridiculing non-answers is a defacto admission that the PG shotgun at close range indoors is a fearsome weapon in the hands of one who knows how to shoot one.

 

[Justin]

Rshooter-

I didn't respond to you because the basic gist of your post was "Well, let's get in a gun fight at my house at 2 A.M. and see who comes out on top."

That's not an argument. It's not a presentation of fact, it's not an attempt to come up with even a shade-tree testing methodology to demonstrate the merits of PGO shotguns.

Your statements, so far as I've seen, pretty much boil down to re-iterating your level of self confidence in your chosen platform with a vaguely threatening undertone. That is, quite frankly, not helpful in the least. You like your shotgun and think you can successfully use it to defend yourself. That's great, I'm happy for you. Regardless, I'm not so convinced that they're useful and would like to see yet another person run a course of fire with one before making up my mind.


I find it very odd that when I question the utility of a PGO shotgun and ask for a demonstration of their usefulness, all of the fans of PGO shotguns act like I've insulted their manhood.

 

[Robert]

rbernie and Waterhouse are correct. A PGO shotgun can not do anything better than my full stock 590. And in fact my 590 is a more useful weapon to boot. Not only can I shoot it in a shortened method as shown by Waterhouse, but if need be I can shoulder and actually aim the weapon. By using that method I have not only made my full stock shotgun the same length, or close enough, as a PGO but I also retain better contol in more surface area helping control the recoil of the weapon. And then if I decide to shoulder mount the weapon I do not have to call for a cease fire to break out the tool box and mount a traditional stock. So why choose something that would seem to be less capable of doing the same job. If it works for you, then fine. But I just don't see the point. And if you trust your life to one why not take the challenge? That is far from a life or death situation.

 

[waterhouse]

I have my P/G shotgun for one purpose, negotiate corners and doorways, shots less than 20', inside a house, maybe in the dark.

Do I want to lead with a gun too big to turn around in a doorway and risk having it jerked out of my hands?

I posted a picture earlier. You can run the stocked shotgun around corners and doorways just as well as a PGO.

I fail to understand why the anti's get all stirred up about MY choice. And right now, it's short barrel, P/G.

No one here is trying to take your choice away. I'm simply trying to understand a real, actual reason why someone would choose a PGO for home defense. I asked this in the last thread and everyone said "for tight spaces" or "my living room is really small."

Since my stocked shotgun can be run as short as a PGO of the same barrel length, I don't understand this argument.

 

[Leadhead]

The simple answer waterhouse is that "my living room is very small" is not a good reason to run a PGO.

I think some people just like PGO's and are comfortable with that choice even though it is not what a professional would choose......when forced to justify this choice to others who consider it to be a poor choice they fumble with explenations of why they like their PGO and don't have enough confidence to just say " hey, it works for me and I feel good about it...."

 

[Robert]

Justin, I stated my case in my reply to Dave on page 2. If someone enters my home uninvited I will pull out my 870 in a pistol grip configuration. Chances are he will lose, even if he is a three gun master.

But guys I own one a folder and while I might not be able to beat Dave in a shotgun course with the stock folded I would meet him in my house at night with this gun.

What's the address?

 

[Correia]

Obviously, the plethora of ridiculing non-answers is a defacto admission that the PG shotgun at close range indoors is a fearsome weapon in the hands of one who knows how to shoot one.

So are nunchuks, but I'll keep the stock on my shotgun.

I think Jorg actually just won the internets.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I want those rabid raccoon bolas. Think they'd be more reliable than a Luger. Though the Luger is easier to clean.

After screwing around with a PGO shotgun in the early 90's I 'thought' I wanted one. I even had the Pachmeyer grip and fore end in my shopping cart at my local Walmart... then I thought you know I only have ONE shotgun. And unlike changing barrels changing stocks takes a while and it's not like I am gonna hunt grouse with a hip shooting PGO. The Pachmeyer was even ON SALE... and by the time I got up front to the check out, I had decided to put it back.

If I had a second shotgun 'just for fun' and bear defense etc. maybe, maybe I'd put a PG on it, but I doubt it. (it would probably actually only get used in photoshoots) Better a "youth stock" thats a tad shorter with a thicker pad.