PG Only Shotguns and Hip Shooting 101...

[Southern Rebel]

I find it interesting that the PGO proponents are crying 'foul' when all I've seen from the conventionally-stocked shotgun proponents is a willingness to accept the limited virtues of the PGO shotgun IF the PGO proponents will accept that their tool is severely limited in scope and utility

RBERNIE, I think if you did a detailed reading of anti-PGO comments on this subject, you will indeed find expressions of "doorstop" and "useless" in several comments. Now I understand that people who are inclined to make such statements of ignorance probably aren't that knowledgeable about guns and are just repeating concepts they have read while their were playing the forums and pretending to be all-knowing Ninjas, maybe even of the Mall species.

Other than Forum Ninjas, most of the comments are not much different than we see when discussions are ongoing about the pistol caliber size and related stopping power. Few of us would dspute that a 44 magnum bullet is a more effective answer to a hard skull than a 32 auto, but we give a little space for the 32 user - without insulting him (usually). That space, I believe, is what is needed in this thread.

It is certainly more High Road to just say an individual has chosen a tougher path to his ultimate goal and may have to put in more practice and accept certain limitations, but he can arrive at his goal if he is willing to pay the extra price. (The same speech that I gave my son when he dropped out of college - "you can still be successful, but you have chosen a path that will probably be tougher and require more of you." He is now a successful individual, monetarily and socially.)

I chose a PGO for HD. Why?

1. Because I can
2. I like a challenge
3. I have dreams of teaching a pig to sing (Did I mention I like challenges?

 

[Rshooter]

I find it interesting that the PGO proponents are crying 'foul' when all I've seen from the conventionally-stocked shotgun proponents is a willingness to accept the limited virtues of the PGO shotgun IF the PGO proponents will accept that their tool is severely limited in scope and utility. Seems to me that we keep going in circles because every time we almost have a truce, the (few) PGO protagonists have to throw gasoline on the fire by refusing to logically debate the issue and instead reverting to comments like this:

Rbernie, with respect I am going to call you on this. When you cleaned up the thread you removed my last statement to Lee. It was that this thread had demonstrated why we PGO peoples cannot have a PGO thread. The last attempt was a new member asking for advice that was flamed so bad that it was locked.

I am glad you cleaned up the thread but I almost wish that you had not cleaned up the thread now. The flames you had to remove proved my point more than anything I could ever say.

As for PGO shotguns. I never seriously considered them until I was smitten by a Remington 'full factory' police folder. I have learned to use a PGO since then, even though I can quickly fold out the stock. It has opened up a new area of shotgunning for me to explore and practice. Yes PGO shotgunners do practice, come on down to Gunny's and I will even let you have a go with it at 25 yards indoors or we can go up north and really push the limits, but there I prefer my fully stocked guns.

 

[dom1104]

Good thing the bad guys think PGO is the way to go.


Luckily for the homeowners, this bad guy carved his 22lr into a PGO and that allowed the woman to wrench it away.


http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/waters80.html

 

[amd6547]

rbernie states that PG shotgun proponents are proposing that this weapon is "the best possible home defense weapon"...I haven't seen that expressed by others, and it is expressly the opposite of what I have written. I much prefer the carbine and handgun to any shotgun, stocked or otherwise.
It is further stated that Waterhouse has demonstrated that a stocked shotgun can be held in such a manner that it is just as handy as a PG shotgun. Sorry, not for me. I have moved through my house with my Model 11 riot gun, and it simply is too long, regardless of how it is held. The PG simply fits my situation better.

 

[Guns and more]

Because I'm genuinely curious as to why people are so willing to use a weapon for personal defense that they themselves admit is an inferior choice.

What? I never said it was an inferior choice. I think it is superior choice. I don't care if you were a marine, or a prison guard, or a chief of police. When the time comes you wont be there to help me.
I'm amazed that all you (well intentioned) folks think I have to follow your advice. It's a forum, not Marine boot camp, and you're not my DI!

I'll listen to all sides and then make my own decision, thank you!

"Everybody's a great shot on the internet!"

 

[Southern Rebel]

Luckily for the homeowners, this bad guy carved his 22lr into a PGO and that allowed the woman to wrench it away.

Dom,

Just because you see one swallow in your neighborhood doesn't mean that you have been transported to Capistrano. ONE example of anything is probably the worst excuse for a sampling of data and poorly reflects on the analytical capabilities of the provider. That is akin to pulling up a story where a legally permitted/licensed gunowner murdered someone and the provider saying this proves that citizens should not be allowed to possess guns.

(Oh by the way, a 22lr does not qualify as a shotgun - even if it does have one of those nasty PGO setups.)

 

[30mag]

Dom,

Just because you see one swallow in your neighborhood doesn't mean that you have been transported to Capistrano. ONE example of anything is probably the worst excuse for a sampling of data and poorly reflects on the analytical capabilities of the provider. That is akin to pulling up a story where a legally permitted/licensed gunowner murdered someone and the provider saying this proves that citizens should not be allowed to possess guns.

(Oh by the way, a 22lr does not qualify as a shotgun - even if it does have one of those nasty PGO setups.)

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/the-dangers-of-n1/

Justified!

 

[rbernie]

I'm amazed that all you (well intentioned) folks think I have to follow your advice.

I didn't read anybody sayin' this - at all. But advice from either side deserves critial thought, donchyathink?

 

[30mag]

I chose a PGO for HD. Why?

1. Because I can
2. I like a challenge
3. I have dreams of teaching a pig to sing (Did I mention I like challenges?

There is something wrong with this line of reasoning..
"I chose a PGO for HD. Why?"
"2. I like a challenge."

Yes.. there it is... I believe it is a complete lack thereof.

You are insinuating that you KNOW that a PGO is not the best tool for the job, and you use it because of that. It'd be like defending your home without using your strong hand. It's reckless to some degree, but more importantly, where is the common sense? You want to have every advantage you can in defense.

I see a use for PGOs, even for HD. They handle quicker than a stocked shotgun (in some instances) and are more powerful than most handguns. But a challenge? That's a terrible reason.

 

[waterhouse]

I think it is superior choice.

Why? That's all I'm asking.

You use the word think, so you have put some thought into it. What attributes of the PGO make it a superior choice for home defense?

 

[oneounceload]

I can personally point a stocked shotgun, or one of my handguns, a lot better than a PGO shotgun. For me, the PGO is a novelty toy, best left for You Tube and informal fun in the backyard.

 

[Southern Rebel]

For me, the PGO is a novelty toy, best left for You Tube and informal fun in the backyard.

(sigh) As Ronald Reagan would have said, "There you go again!"
Yep, I guess everyone with kids now feel it is safe to let them play with a PGO in the backyard as a toy for informal play, based on your in-depth analysis.

Mag30, I guess I did express that very poorly. Based on my own personal HD needs and physical setup, the PGO does more than adequately fill those needs - and would not present a challenge in that regard. The "challenge" comment was more related to some of the recreational uses that I put it to, just for the challenge - kind of like some guys enjoy shooting at 100 yard targets with a pistol rather than a rifle. Your post was well-taken and well-spoken.

 

[wrs840]

PGO is a great visual for movie-actors.

Not so great for practical utility in real life...

That is if you want to actually hit the target. Hip-shooting benefits from a stock.

My .02

Les

 

[Bud Tugly]

No problem with serious gun people choosing a PGO for home defense. They are aware of other options for HD and have made an informed decision that the advantages outweigh the limitations for their situation. They will take their guns out and actually shoot them enough to be confident of their abilities with it.

The ones I worry about are inexperienced folks who buy a PGO for the "coolness" factor and don't consider other options. If they rarely (or never) actually practice with the things and then confront an actual HD scenario they may be in serious trouble.

Of course that applies to any HD weapon, but firing a PGO in a tense situation without practice or knowledge is significantly more difficult than nearly any other choice.

 

[Dave McCracken]

A couple things....

The longest possible shot in Casa McC is about 33 feet. That's 11 yards.

At 10 yards, a distance mentioned in this thread, I can COM a tombstone target with a "duty" load of buck in under a second from low ready with either one of my "Serious" 870s or Frankenstein. Definitely faster with Frankenstein.

For those that came in late, Frankenstein is a parts 870 that's a loveable junkyard mutt of a shotgun with a lot of meat on its backtrail.

But, first shot speed is only part of the package.

How fast a second shot( not a followup, with shotguns little need exists for a double tap) can be done on a nearby but distinct second target can give us some real world data.

IIRC, my split times(though I didn't call them that back then) ran .5-.75 seconds with good COM hits using full power ammo. That's 9 pellets 00.

And I, along with most seasoned shotgunners, can do that repeatedly.

PGO fans, waiting to hear from you about your times and scores.....

 

[Justin]

"Everybody's a great shot on the internet!"

On Saturday I competed at a local 3Gun match (video at the link in my sig). Sunday I was up at 5:30 am to help with setup and then act as assistant RO as well as competitor at a tactical rifle match. Yesterday was our local Steel Challenge match. By attending somewhere between four and eight matches a month and looking at the statistics from scores and placement, I've gotten a pretty good idea of where my skills lie. Do I win every match? No. Do I miss? Sometimes. Am I any sort of shooting god? I wish. Compared to guys like Matt Burkett or Zak Smith, I've got a long way to go. But I am continually improving.

Attending matches has also provided the opportunity to see what works and what doesn't. If PGO shotguns conferred an advantage, they'd have representation on the firing line. So far, I've seen only one PGO at a match, and the competitor seemed to struggle mightily with getting lead on target at distances as close as ten yards. Meanwhile, even though my movements with a longer shotgun might be a bit awkward, I was still able to get lead on target from a variety of shooting positions.

My dislike for PGO's isn't something I picked up on a whim, rather it comes from direct observation and experience.

 

[earlthegoat2]

But full stocked shotguns arent as stowable right. I need a wee little small gun even if it compromises effectiveness that could easily be remedied with only a modest size increase. Kind of reminds me of the pocket 380 trend.

 

[amd6547]

I do not compete in matches (though I am considering shooting in the M1 carbine match at Camp Perry this year). I am a member of a private rifle and pistol club, and shoot there on a monthly basis. My focus there is the rifle and pistol. I shoot bowling pins with the various pistols, and shoot steel plates we have at ranges from 40yds to 75 yds. I also shoot my service pistols out 100yds. I shoot on the rifle range, working on my skills with the m1 carbine, AK and AR, as well as a few mil-surp bolt guns.
I have stated here that I consider the shotgun to be a tertiary weapon, and that is reflected in my shooting habits at the club. One or both of my shotguns accompany me to the range about every three trips. Basically a matter of confirming function, POA/POI, and rotation of carry ammo, though I do enjoy getting my Model 11 out and rapid firing a mag of buck...it is fun to fire 5 rounds as fast as the trigger can be pulled.
I keep my firearms locked up in a gun safe, except for my main SD handgun. When I am home, the M1 carbine is kept handy, and would be what I would grab first. The handgun, of course is the handiest weapon of all, something that is always available, and which could be kept ready and concealed for investigating questionable activities inside or outside the home. For me, that handgun is a Beretta 92FS with CTC grips and an 18rd mag of 127gn Ranger JHPs ( I also have a long-standing fondness for the Browning HiPower, which is what is next to me right now, as I write this..). The only firearm that is not in the safe is my PG Mossberg, which is stored with a full mag and a trigger lock. It is stored in a location which would not fit a fully stocked shotgun. I have a folder for this shotgun, but it adds a lot of bulk, being a side-folder, plus I just prefer the chickenhead grip I have on my shotgun now.
With the forward pushing grip I use on the forend of my PG shotgun, I find that I can function the pump very quickly as a natural function of the recoil motion, while controling recoil, and pointing with the forend hand.
I have nothing to prove to anyone but myself. I am satisfied with my choices, and that is all that matters to me.

 

[wrs840]

...and satisfied with your choices you should be. That's a good thing.

You'll find that much of the advocacy on internet fora is by folks who are defending decisions that they have already made. It's for those who haven't yet made a decision that the elders share their personal experience, and that's a good thing too.

Les

 

[amd6547]

Yes, it is a good thing to have "elders" share their wisdom. The problem I have is when the info on PG shotguns is presented, as a sticky of all things, in a dismissive and ridiculing manner, along with anecdotal stories and darwin award youtube videos. There is much more to the PG shotgun story than that, and the info in a sticky should be much more fair and balanced, or it is merely a vehicle for presenting someones personal bias. Not at all helpful to a search for the truth by someone who searching for same.

 

[Todd A]

Yes, it is a good thing to have "elders" share their wisdom. The problem I have is when the info on PG shotguns is presented, as a sticky of all things, in a dismissive and ridiculing manner, along with anecdotal stories and darwin award youtube videos.

I was going to stay out of this one but..

The sticky is there for newbies.

My own HD/Camping/Hiking/Woodsbumming shotgun has a PGO on it right now. I am confident in my abilities with myshotgun to put lead on target at pistol range or closer with it. I can live with its limitations, and don't personally care if others don't share my opinion.

Am I better with a full stocked gun? Yep. But I can't strap a full stocked gun to a back pack without it extending beyond the pack.

And I am too lazy to switch stocks everytime I leave the house.

In my mind the sticky is there for first time HD Shotgun users/buyers. And I would not recomend a PGO to a firstime user.

And a PGO is definatly not for those who buy a shotgun,a 5 pack of Buck, load it, and stuff it under the bed thinking they are well armed.

 

[oneounceload]

(sigh) As Ronald Reagan would have said, "There you go again!"
Yep, I guess everyone with kids now feel it is safe to let them play with a PGO in the backyard as a toy for informal play, based on your in-depth analysis.

Your condescending smart remarks do nothing to further your now value-less utterances.

I said nothing about kids or as a toy - it is comments like that that help the antis more than you.

If you don't know the difference, kindly go back to playing video games

 

[Rshooter]

Come on guys, if you do not like a PGO bail out and let us folks who want to discuss the proper use of the gun do so. I will listen to Dave and Lee in deference to their experience but they know I will not dump the PGO so they will hopefully give advice on the use of the gun that they have. We can prevent more newbie injuries with good information than we can by arguing. :banghead:

 

[Leadhead]

Attending matches has also provided the opportunity to see what works and what doesn't. If PGO shotguns conferred an advantage, they'd have representation on the firing line.

I agree with Justin.
Don't try competing against full stock guns with your PGO if your goal is to win the competition!
What was Dave's challenge again.......

 

[Justin]

Don't try competing against full stock guns with your PGO if your goal is to win the competition!

Home defense isn't a competition?

And here I was fairly certain that a home defense situation generally involves a winner and a loser.
Perhaps in the post-modern era, rather, everyone can be a winner?