PG Only Shotguns and Hip Shooting 101...
- Thread starter Dave McCracken
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Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Here's the question that this brings, at least to my mind:
If a competitor with a PGO shotgun cannot hold his own at a match on a sunny day, when he's fully awake and in a good mood, at a practical shooting match that involves shooting large steel targets at close range with bird shot, what does that say about the utility of the firearm?
I mean, those are about the best circumstances you could possibly ask for, with courses of fire that all of the PGO guys claim would be advantageous for PGO shotguns. Yet that plainly was not the case.
If close range on big targets in cramped quarters isn't an advantageous scenario for a PGO shotgun, then what is? Describe a situation in which a pistol gripped shotgun would be useful to have, and where, even if it wouldn't beat the stocked shotguns outright, at least it could make a reasonable showing.
So far, the only situations where I see a PGO shotgun being a somewhat reasonable choice are those where weight and space are at such an absolute premium that no other choice is viable- backpacking in the woods*, as a secondary weapon used for breaching doors** before transitioning to a handgun or rifle, or possibly in a situation where one is moving in/out of vehicles on a regular basis***.
*Though a magnum handgun weighs even less, is easier to carry, shoot accurately, and is considered by pretty much anyone with authority on the subject to be a reasonable choice in the lower 48.
**I can't think of a better choice here, so I'll certainly concede that use. But I seriously doubt many of us breach enough doors to make the purchase of a PGO worthwhile.
***An SBR'd AR-type rifle would offer not only higher ammunition capacity, but is easier to control and aim accurately, and presumably requires much less training to achieve a basic level of proficiency.
If a competitor with a PGO shotgun cannot hold his own at a match on a sunny day, when he's fully awake and in a good mood, at a practical shooting match that involves shooting large steel targets at close range with bird shot, what does that say about the utility of the firearm?
I mean, those are about the best circumstances you could possibly ask for, with courses of fire that all of the PGO guys claim would be advantageous for PGO shotguns. Yet that plainly was not the case.
If close range on big targets in cramped quarters isn't an advantageous scenario for a PGO shotgun, then what is? Describe a situation in which a pistol gripped shotgun would be useful to have, and where, even if it wouldn't beat the stocked shotguns outright, at least it could make a reasonable showing.
So far, the only situations where I see a PGO shotgun being a somewhat reasonable choice are those where weight and space are at such an absolute premium that no other choice is viable- backpacking in the woods*, as a secondary weapon used for breaching doors** before transitioning to a handgun or rifle, or possibly in a situation where one is moving in/out of vehicles on a regular basis***.
*Though a magnum handgun weighs even less, is easier to carry, shoot accurately, and is considered by pretty much anyone with authority on the subject to be a reasonable choice in the lower 48.
**I can't think of a better choice here, so I'll certainly concede that use. But I seriously doubt many of us breach enough doors to make the purchase of a PGO worthwhile.
***An SBR'd AR-type rifle would offer not only higher ammunition capacity, but is easier to control and aim accurately, and presumably requires much less training to achieve a basic level of proficiency.
Ok this thread is getting silly. Noone is going to listen to the other side. I have to bring in some biblical beatdown.
Prov 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
Prov 12:23 A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.
Prov 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Exodus 22:2-3 "If the thief is found breaking in,
and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his
bloodshed. If he is wounded with a pistol grip shotgun, and rises up, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold to pay for the legal bills."
No offense meant, its just what popped into the head. Both sides think the other is a fool, and neither side will listen.
Prov 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
Prov 12:23 A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.
Prov 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Exodus 22:2-3 "If the thief is found breaking in,
and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his
bloodshed. If he is wounded with a pistol grip shotgun, and rises up, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold to pay for the legal bills."
No offense meant, its just what popped into the head. Both sides think the other is a fool, and neither side will listen.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Dom-
I'm completely open to being convinced that PGO shotguns have viable applications. All I need is to be presented with evidence.
I'm completely open to being convinced that PGO shotguns have viable applications. All I need is to be presented with evidence.
amd6547
Member
What I find silly is the either/or aspect of this discussion. I own both stocked and pistol gripped shotguns, and shoot both well within their limitations.
And, to my view, all shotguns have limitations...which is why I prefer the carbine.
And, to my view, all shotguns have limitations...which is why I prefer the carbine.
30mag
Member
Excellent.
30mag
Member
A PGO suffers in the accuracy department vs. a stocked shotty. If you're firing it, the PGO loses.
A PGO is (arguably) more totable, concealable, and handy. It wins in storage. If you have a shotgun with a folding stock though, that largely defeats any advantage that a PGO might have. Although if concealability was an issue, a PGO wouldn't snag a stock on something or have a stock to print.
I'm sure some have seen these clips all ready but I guess they serve as evidence that hit's can be made with PGO's.....I was not racing so to speak and this was a few years ago when I first set up one of my guns with a birdshead grip. This was my second time shooting at clays with this gun so not a lot of practice so to speak.....the snowman was latter in the year and my first attempt at hip shooting.
It's hard to see the hits but it went like this....
first clay shot clean one hand
second clay broke in the launcher and I hit the biggest piece that flew
third clay was nicked and deflected with the third shot, nicked again with the forth and missed with the last shot at what was left of the dropping clay
Here I was just having some fun at the range when old grumpy showed up
the first shot kind of caught me by surprise as I was not really sure of my aim point.....
For the umpteenth time, NO ONE is suggesting that "hits cannot be made with a PGO".
NO ONE.
Several people are suggesting that FASTER and MORE CONSISTENT hits can be made with a stocked shotgun, for a given amount of training.
Furthermore (and this is not addressed at our last poster), NO ONE is suggesting that PGOs should be outlawed, that they cannot be enjoyed for what they are, or that they don't have a niche in which they serve a valid purpose (beyond amusement). What many people are saying is that the niche is vanishingly small, that they're not a lot of fun for most people to do a lot of shooting with, and they they personally don't want one.
The PGO-defenders have some need to create straw men to then blast (slowly and at close range) with their PGO guns. It's almost as if arguing the valid points ends up in consistent losses, so the subject is subtly changed. Coincidence, I'm sure.
Talk to the people who train the use of shotguns, and who compete with shotguns. What do they see the PGO doing in their courses? How well are PGO practitioners performing? There's a clue, right there.
Mike
NO ONE.
Several people are suggesting that FASTER and MORE CONSISTENT hits can be made with a stocked shotgun, for a given amount of training.
Furthermore (and this is not addressed at our last poster), NO ONE is suggesting that PGOs should be outlawed, that they cannot be enjoyed for what they are, or that they don't have a niche in which they serve a valid purpose (beyond amusement). What many people are saying is that the niche is vanishingly small, that they're not a lot of fun for most people to do a lot of shooting with, and they they personally don't want one.
The PGO-defenders have some need to create straw men to then blast (slowly and at close range) with their PGO guns. It's almost as if arguing the valid points ends up in consistent losses, so the subject is subtly changed. Coincidence, I'm sure.
Talk to the people who train the use of shotguns, and who compete with shotguns. What do they see the PGO doing in their courses? How well are PGO practitioners performing? There's a clue, right there.
Mike
Southern Rebel
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Well, I have already contributed more than I really know, so it is time for me to go find a nice thread where I can argue - oops, discuss - the merits of why I carry a pistol using the 357 SIG catridge rather than the better choice of a 45 caliber.
I will leave all of you with what my uncle told me about his experience in wartime. I certainly can't remember word or word, but it went something like this.
"Boy, I know you think you are a pretty good shot - and you are when it comes to hittin' a tin-can or an X made on the tree bark. But lemme' tell you something. That is important alright, but there are two things just as important. The first is that you better be danged good at handling your own fear, cause it can freeze you in a heartbeat when you know there is men out there that are tryin' their best to kill you.
The second is you better be ready to take their life, cause if you ain't, that's gonna freeze you too. I lost a lot of buddies that were better shooters than me, but they froze up and they died because of it.
And the scariest part of it all, boy, is that you generally don't know how you stand on those parts until you're there."
I will leave all of you with what my uncle told me about his experience in wartime. I certainly can't remember word or word, but it went something like this.
"Boy, I know you think you are a pretty good shot - and you are when it comes to hittin' a tin-can or an X made on the tree bark. But lemme' tell you something. That is important alright, but there are two things just as important. The first is that you better be danged good at handling your own fear, cause it can freeze you in a heartbeat when you know there is men out there that are tryin' their best to kill you.
The second is you better be ready to take their life, cause if you ain't, that's gonna freeze you too. I lost a lot of buddies that were better shooters than me, but they froze up and they died because of it.
And the scariest part of it all, boy, is that you generally don't know how you stand on those parts until you're there."
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
*smacks forehead*
Now I get it. One's mindset and willingness to defend himself is completely dependent upon whether he has a PGO shotgun.
Makes perfect sense.
Now I get it. One's mindset and willingness to defend himself is completely dependent upon whether he has a PGO shotgun.
Makes perfect sense.
amd6547
Member
What Southern Rebel wrote is very true, and echoes words my Father, a WWII vet told me.
Justin, your reaction is nothing more than incendiary and uncalled for.
Justin, your reaction is nothing more than incendiary and uncalled for.
amd6547
Member
I guess that's what practice is all about...But his "unsure shot" took old grumpy's head off.
Guns and more
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That makes no sense. How would a stock pressed against his shoulder have held any better.
It's just the opposite. Going through a doorway with a full stock gives the BG a better opportunity to grab the barrel and jerk it out of your hand. Your grip is now far in front of you where you have no leverage. Far better to have your hands close to your body where you have strength. Also the full shotgun will stick farther in front of you.
Southern Rebel
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(I guess there is more than one way to knock yourself addled - might just have well used a PGO and put in on youtube!)
Justin, evidently a little too hard because your response makes no sense????
If it is in response to my post, let me simplify it for you:
If you are at a point where your life is imminent danger and you either must defend yourself or die, you better have the guts and the courage to do so. All the little round holes you have punched in paper targets won't impress the bad guy anymore than it impresses me. If you have been there and done that, then fine. If not, all the discussion points and all the best and most applicable weapons in the world won't do you any good if you lack those two abilities. If found lacking, best put your head between your legs and kiss you behind goodbye!
Great post Southern Rebel and so true....until you are in the life and death zone you don't really know how you will react.
So far I've been there a few times and for the most part things got real sharp and timed slowed down for me personally and I was able to react to the situation.
Coranach, NO ONE is suggesting that "PGO's are faster then full stock guns".
It seems to be an argument to determine just how bad the PGO is compared to a full stock.
So far I've been there a few times and for the most part things got real sharp and timed slowed down for me personally and I was able to react to the situation.
Coranach, NO ONE is suggesting that "PGO's are faster then full stock guns".
It seems to be an argument to determine just how bad the PGO is compared to a full stock.
oneounceload
member
It seems, that according to Southern Rebel, that anyone who disagrees with him is suggesting that PGO's are only for toys and kids
Guns and more
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This thread has become boring.
Stock guys....get a stock
PG guys....have at it.
I'm out.
Stock guys....get a stock
PG guys....have at it.
I'm out.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Thanks, but no need for the clarification as your message came through loud and clear the first time.
The point is that in this thread, it's already a given that we all possess the proper mindset to defend ourselves. There's fundamentally no reason to even breach the subject in this thread, except to make a dig at those who disagree with you.
Agreed.
This topic is always spirited. No one but a mall ninja would swear a PGO is better than a full stock gun for fast follow up shots.
However, on the other side of the coin.
Anyone who says a PGO can not be used effectively in home defense ,in the hands of someone who actually shoots the thing, is allowing personal bias to creep in.
Whether you use a fixed,folder,or PGO just be sure to go out and send some lead downrange.
(after all that is what counts the most)
amd6547
Member
How one reacts when bullets are being fired at you with deadly intent has very little to do with the willingness and mindset to defend oneself stated boldly before it ever happens. When the "COF" becomes two way, it is often those who talked the loudest beforehand who go to pieces.
Seriously, Justin, and as politely as possible, Your response to Southern Rebel was uncivil. There some things all of us should be able to agree on, and the sentiment expressed in SR's post should be one of them.
Seriously, Justin, and as politely as possible, Your response to Southern Rebel was uncivil. There some things all of us should be able to agree on, and the sentiment expressed in SR's post should be one of them.
Rbernie, thanks for marking that thread, funny thing though, that guy is talking about using a Blackhawk shotgun at the hip and the best advice aside from holding it tight to the hip is to use it from the shoulder.
I will just give up on this, I never said I was better than anybody else. I would love to participate in a gun match with my PGO but a cane and leg braces would probably make it difficult. It is hard to cycle the darn thing when you are trying to stay upright PGO or no.
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