GBExpat
Member
That probably describes many/most of us here.
Congrats on your beoooootiful Luger and many thanks for the pics!
Picked up my first Luger today
- Thread starter Dropyourweapon
- Start date
- Status
Congrats on your beoooootiful Luger and many thanks for the pics!
Monac
Member
I was lucky enough to be around when the collapse of East Germany caused the release of a bunch of East German re-work Lugers at relatively low prices. They weren't pretty, they often had mismatched parts, and the magazines were all replacements, but mine, at least, was an excellent shooter. The East German magazines replacement magazines were well made, too.
I don't think many or any of the ones released at that time were really VOPO Lugers - they looked like they had been refinished and then stored for a Third World War that never happened.
I don't think many or any of the ones released at that time were really VOPO Lugers - they looked like they had been refinished and then stored for a Third World War that never happened.
Patocazador
Member
My only Luger is an artillery model dated 1917. It is mismatched, a composite of 2 guns. I bought it from the brother of a girl I was dating in 1974. He felt bad about charging me $175 for it and apologized afterwards. He said its value was less due to the mismatch. I was /am happy to get it. I would have wasted the money on beer or car accessories otherwise.
I would love to have your Luger too. Enjoy it.
I would love to have your Luger too.
Enjoy it.
243winxb
Member
Popoff
Member
DropYourWeapon, I agree with 243winxb and I’m happy to hear you’re on deck at Jan Still’s Luger Forum. They will certainly want more pictures, such as the cannon, especially the barrel lump, the frame under the grips, the muzzle band and sight, small parts such as extractor, all the inside numbers such as in the sideplate, and so on. But they’ll get you as close as you will ever get to understanding the origin of your weapon, something of its probable history, and its market value. They are true masters of this knowledge. I know a little, little bit and can tell you what I think (to pique your curiosity to seek more knowledge) from your pictures.
Your Luger has the famous DWM stamp on the toggle that indicates the gun was either originally manufactured by Deutche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) or the toggle was just a part inserted by a Weimar rework concern such as Lunenschloss, Simson, Krieghoff, or later, Mauser, or by a modern assembler of fakes; but the last is unlikely, as fakers add other distinguishing marks to boost the value of the gun they’re assembling, and yours is unusually clean. The barrel appears to have a patch of cold blue and is possibly a Mauser-sourced barrel added later, which would be common for the late twenties to mid-thirties. However, the foresite profile is distinctive, like a Swiss Contract barrel in production from around 1899 until about 1903. In any case that is NOT the original barrel. Those Swiss 30 Luger barrels were all supposed to be 120mm long, and yours looks to be a later-style 100mm barrel, so I dunno. Some other contracts and trials from 1900 – 1911 could have shared that front sight profile too. I don’t have the deep knowledge on this. The gun has the New Model “short-frame” and I’ll bet you’ll find a coil mainspring under the grips that replaces the Old Model’s nested leaf mainsprings.
The “Crown/N” is a proof mark designating nitro proof, or safe to fire smokeless powder. Lazy C/N’s (proof mark lying on its side) were applied during the Imperial years so if a genuine DWM your gun (minus the present barrel) was probably made between 1907 and 1913 (when the stock lug was standardized on all grip frames). The lack of a chamber date suggests that the weapon was “scrubbed” for commercial resale after WWI, but there were commercials in both 9mm and 30 Luger without a chamber date prior to about 1911.
There appear to be machining marks on the rear frame flats, indicating that the frame blue, at least, is original, as polishing to reblue usually removes the tool marks and usually also rounds the corners and edges, which appear to be sharp and have use -or holster wear alone to the finish, supporting the notion that the receiver blue is original also but hard for me to say for sure based on these photos.
All parts should share the last two of the serial number indicating a hand-fitted weapon; a military weapon has the numbers plainly visible, and commercial models hide the numbers inside the mechanism and inside the sideplate, but the commercial and military sideplates both have the first two of the serial number inside. Your serial number appears to have an “n” suffix, in German fraktur script, which is consistent with post-WWI DWM commercial manufacture, so I wonder if the stock lug was ground off and polished at some point? If it was, at one time, a military weapon, the suffix is entirely appropriate. Otherwise it’s an anomaly for a weapon produced between 1907 and 1913.
Yours is an interesting weapon, and may be a true collectible. Don’t tell them at the Luger Forum that you heard this opinion; approach with humility and let them notice on their own. Don’t be put off by someone who instantly dismisses it as a “parts gun” or a “shooter” without really looking into it. There’s one or two like that, but your Luger should generate a lot of interest though. If not, then come back here and I’ll go into it for you in more depth. By the way, depending on the barrel condition, I think you paid a fair-to-good price for a shooter grade gun, and you may have lucked into a real, serious bargain! Congratulations on entering the Luger club, it’s a Big Universe out there! and best of luck.
Cheers,
Popoff
Your Luger has the famous DWM stamp on the toggle that indicates the gun was either originally manufactured by Deutche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) or the toggle was just a part inserted by a Weimar rework concern such as Lunenschloss, Simson, Krieghoff, or later, Mauser, or by a modern assembler of fakes; but the last is unlikely, as fakers add other distinguishing marks to boost the value of the gun they’re assembling, and yours is unusually clean. The barrel appears to have a patch of cold blue and is possibly a Mauser-sourced barrel added later, which would be common for the late twenties to mid-thirties. However, the foresite profile is distinctive, like a Swiss Contract barrel in production from around 1899 until about 1903. In any case that is NOT the original barrel. Those Swiss 30 Luger barrels were all supposed to be 120mm long, and yours looks to be a later-style 100mm barrel, so I dunno. Some other contracts and trials from 1900 – 1911 could have shared that front sight profile too. I don’t have the deep knowledge on this. The gun has the New Model “short-frame” and I’ll bet you’ll find a coil mainspring under the grips that replaces the Old Model’s nested leaf mainsprings.
The “Crown/N” is a proof mark designating nitro proof, or safe to fire smokeless powder. Lazy C/N’s (proof mark lying on its side) were applied during the Imperial years so if a genuine DWM your gun (minus the present barrel) was probably made between 1907 and 1913 (when the stock lug was standardized on all grip frames). The lack of a chamber date suggests that the weapon was “scrubbed” for commercial resale after WWI, but there were commercials in both 9mm and 30 Luger without a chamber date prior to about 1911.
There appear to be machining marks on the rear frame flats, indicating that the frame blue, at least, is original, as polishing to reblue usually removes the tool marks and usually also rounds the corners and edges, which appear to be sharp and have use -or holster wear alone to the finish, supporting the notion that the receiver blue is original also but hard for me to say for sure based on these photos.
All parts should share the last two of the serial number indicating a hand-fitted weapon; a military weapon has the numbers plainly visible, and commercial models hide the numbers inside the mechanism and inside the sideplate, but the commercial and military sideplates both have the first two of the serial number inside. Your serial number appears to have an “n” suffix, in German fraktur script, which is consistent with post-WWI DWM commercial manufacture, so I wonder if the stock lug was ground off and polished at some point? If it was, at one time, a military weapon, the suffix is entirely appropriate. Otherwise it’s an anomaly for a weapon produced between 1907 and 1913.
Yours is an interesting weapon, and may be a true collectible. Don’t tell them at the Luger Forum that you heard this opinion; approach with humility and let them notice on their own. Don’t be put off by someone who instantly dismisses it as a “parts gun” or a “shooter” without really looking into it. There’s one or two like that, but your Luger should generate a lot of interest though. If not, then come back here and I’ll go into it for you in more depth. By the way, depending on the barrel condition, I think you paid a fair-to-good price for a shooter grade gun, and you may have lucked into a real, serious bargain! Congratulations on entering the Luger club, it’s a Big Universe out there! and best of luck.
Cheers,
Popoff
Popoff
Member
Dropyourweapon, I had another look at my own Luger (9mm) and consulted some books (Gortz & Sturgess’ The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols, and Randall Gibson’s The Krieghoff Parabellum) and, based only on your 7 photos, I can amend and expand my earlier review of your Luger. Remember, I’m doing this for fun and as a hobby; I am in no way an expert. I believe you do have a DWM 120mm barrel with the early-style DWM front sight. These were available on old model commercial pistols from 1901, and the low serial number on the barrel supports this. It also seems (hard to see!) to have the old model extractor. The frame has a new model sideplate. Some of the strawed parts appear blue, namely the new model safety and the takedown lever. Strawing occurs at a certain tempering heat and DWM chose to leave those small parts unblued. Others, notably Mauser, blued the small parts, so these could be replacements from the 1930’s and 1940’s sourced from Mauser.
Put in a snap-cap and take a picture of the writing on the extractor; for an old model Luger with all the trials going on it might say”Geladen”, or “Loaded” or the same in Swiss, French, Dutch, or several other languages, which will give you a further clue about where to find further info. The frame ears are consistent with DWM production, so your gun is probably a genuine DWM Luger, although the frame serial number and the barrel serial number do not match. The frame and receiver also do not meet flush at the front, which is said to be a sure sign of a parts mismatch. Based on what I can see, I’m inclined toward your gun being a new model military P08 frame, made between 1907 and 1913 and intended for 9mm. It may have incorporated an old model toggle block, possibly with receiver, meant for the 7.65mm cartridge at a later time that included the old model barrel, or that barrel itself might have been added separately later.
Because the photo of the left-side frame and receiver is unclear to my eyes, it looks like the lazy Crown/N proof mark(s) typically found on Imperial-era commercial pistols on the receiver, the bolt, and/or the left frame rail is or are missing. That, together with the also clean right side (where military proof and acceptance marks are usually found), the lack of a chamber date, and the military suffix on the frame serial number strongly indicate your gun was originally a 9mm Imperial Reichswehr weapon that was scrubbed, factory reblued, and sold by DWM as a commercial pistol rebarreled in the then-legal 7.65mm, within Germany, most likely between 1919 and 1921. The toggle Crown/N proof in your photo argues against that interpretation, because a military gun would have an Imperial Eagle proof in that place instead. The number on the back of the toggle argues for a military gun, as commercials either hid it or didn’t have a toggle number. Not enough contextual info (pictures) available for me to be more sure one way or the other, but these are troubling loose ends, unless the toggle block/receiver and frame are simply from different guns, which is the Occam’s Razor solution.
It’s also hard to say for sure, from the angles of the profile images, but it’s possible you have a transitional frame between the earlier long frame and the later short frame. A true short frame has an absolutely parallel-with-the-frame-rails longer shelf in front of the trigger guard, then a vertical connection with the receiver, and yours appears to be a slightly upward-rising shelf, with more of an angle to the vertical in the connection to the receiver. However, my impression could be caused by an optical illusion from the photo angle. Long frames have a short shelf with a smooth, continuous arc connecting the front of the trigger guard and the receiver. Transitional frames, as one would expect, seem to be a mixture of the two types and are uncommon, even rare, but are new model frames. However, both long and short frames do appear on guns made throughout the time period of the new model (1904 onward), especially with 7.65mm, and after WW I using up old stock parts for commercial sale.
The back of the receiver seems to have a name inscribed, or maybe a unit marking, that has been partially scrubbed away. The back and front grip straps are the usual places for military or police unit markings but I can’t see from your pictures. Likewise I can’t tell if your gun has, or once did have the schiwy, or police safety, from your photos.
There are literally millions of similar guns; they are called collectively “Alphabet Commercials” because of the suffix on the serial number, and they are the run-of-the mill in Luger circles with the majority being chambered in 7.65. All Lugers do appreciate in value. Yours could have some additional collector value, mainly because of the lack of a stock lug on the grip frame, which is relatively rare, especially so without a grip safety which was very common at the time, so yours is the rarer for that; also if it is a rare transitional frame, and it would help if there are internal serial numbers in the toggle and receiver that match the barrel. Otherwise, rebarreled, reblued, and a parts gun (remember the front of the frame and receiver are not strictly flush), it is a shooter. For a 7.65mm, if the bore is “Very Good” grade, you paid a fair price in today’s market. Otherwise, you overpaid by maybe a couple hundred. That said, Lugers are well-known to be phenomenally accurate even with worn-out or corroded barrels, though.
More and better pictures, especially of any and all exterior and interior markings and numbers, and any “ghost markings” could prove me ‘way, ‘way wrong. Best of luck with your new weapon.
Cheers,
Popoff
Put in a snap-cap and take a picture of the writing on the extractor; for an old model Luger with all the trials going on it might say”Geladen”, or “Loaded” or the same in Swiss, French, Dutch, or several other languages, which will give you a further clue about where to find further info. The frame ears are consistent with DWM production, so your gun is probably a genuine DWM Luger, although the frame serial number and the barrel serial number do not match. The frame and receiver also do not meet flush at the front, which is said to be a sure sign of a parts mismatch. Based on what I can see, I’m inclined toward your gun being a new model military P08 frame, made between 1907 and 1913 and intended for 9mm. It may have incorporated an old model toggle block, possibly with receiver, meant for the 7.65mm cartridge at a later time that included the old model barrel, or that barrel itself might have been added separately later.
Because the photo of the left-side frame and receiver is unclear to my eyes, it looks like the lazy Crown/N proof mark(s) typically found on Imperial-era commercial pistols on the receiver, the bolt, and/or the left frame rail is or are missing. That, together with the also clean right side (where military proof and acceptance marks are usually found), the lack of a chamber date, and the military suffix on the frame serial number strongly indicate your gun was originally a 9mm Imperial Reichswehr weapon that was scrubbed, factory reblued, and sold by DWM as a commercial pistol rebarreled in the then-legal 7.65mm, within Germany, most likely between 1919 and 1921. The toggle Crown/N proof in your photo argues against that interpretation, because a military gun would have an Imperial Eagle proof in that place instead. The number on the back of the toggle argues for a military gun, as commercials either hid it or didn’t have a toggle number. Not enough contextual info (pictures) available for me to be more sure one way or the other, but these are troubling loose ends, unless the toggle block/receiver and frame are simply from different guns, which is the Occam’s Razor solution.
It’s also hard to say for sure, from the angles of the profile images, but it’s possible you have a transitional frame between the earlier long frame and the later short frame. A true short frame has an absolutely parallel-with-the-frame-rails longer shelf in front of the trigger guard, then a vertical connection with the receiver, and yours appears to be a slightly upward-rising shelf, with more of an angle to the vertical in the connection to the receiver. However, my impression could be caused by an optical illusion from the photo angle. Long frames have a short shelf with a smooth, continuous arc connecting the front of the trigger guard and the receiver. Transitional frames, as one would expect, seem to be a mixture of the two types and are uncommon, even rare, but are new model frames. However, both long and short frames do appear on guns made throughout the time period of the new model (1904 onward), especially with 7.65mm, and after WW I using up old stock parts for commercial sale.
The back of the receiver seems to have a name inscribed, or maybe a unit marking, that has been partially scrubbed away. The back and front grip straps are the usual places for military or police unit markings but I can’t see from your pictures. Likewise I can’t tell if your gun has, or once did have the schiwy, or police safety, from your photos.
There are literally millions of similar guns; they are called collectively “Alphabet Commercials” because of the suffix on the serial number, and they are the run-of-the mill in Luger circles with the majority being chambered in 7.65. All Lugers do appreciate in value. Yours could have some additional collector value, mainly because of the lack of a stock lug on the grip frame, which is relatively rare, especially so without a grip safety which was very common at the time, so yours is the rarer for that; also if it is a rare transitional frame, and it would help if there are internal serial numbers in the toggle and receiver that match the barrel. Otherwise, rebarreled, reblued, and a parts gun (remember the front of the frame and receiver are not strictly flush), it is a shooter. For a 7.65mm, if the bore is “Very Good” grade, you paid a fair price in today’s market. Otherwise, you overpaid by maybe a couple hundred. That said, Lugers are well-known to be phenomenally accurate even with worn-out or corroded barrels, though.
More and better pictures, especially of any and all exterior and interior markings and numbers, and any “ghost markings” could prove me ‘way, ‘way wrong. Best of luck with your new weapon.
Cheers,
Popoff
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