Picking a trail gun: big hogs in the mix 10MM or .45 Super?

[Prosser]

I've been watching the other thread, and wonder what people think of .45 Super/Rowland, out of a 1911 for a trail gun?

With .45 Super you can use buffalobore 255 grain LFN's at around 1040 fps
for big animals. I think this is a WAY better round then any 10MM loading for big animals.

Glocks are available in the 30 for CCW, 10 rounds, IIRC, though I could only get 9 in the magazine without a shoe horn and a hammer.

Also, ANY strong 1911 will work with .45 Super, giving you a great, accurate gun, good trigger.

If you must have a more powerful round, the .460 Rowland gives you
near .44 mag in an autoloader, with a muzzlebrake.

Ideas?

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

If its just hogs I'm worried about (of the size we get here in FL), I wouldn't feel totally under-prepared with just standard pressure or +P .45 ACP. With the right bullets like a good hard LFN it should have all the penetration you would need.

I suppose going to .45 Super wouldn't hurt, but it might just be unnecessary extra recoil and blast.

 

[Prosser]

.45 Super really has very little more recoil or blast. Difference in pressure is about 17k vs 27k. Case is still the same size.

The other issue is why not .45 Colt for a trail gun, instead of .44 Magnum?

Buffalobore does get the 45 ACP a new dimension with their LFN 255's at around 950 fps.

 

[loadedround]

Think about ammo re-supply. Unless you reload your own ammo, yo're not likely to find 45 Super ammo in your local "Wally World' store. Stick with the 10 MM; that's all the gun you need.

 

[jem375]

For me it would be my Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 mag with Garrett's hammerhead 315 gr. ammo at 1325fps...

 

[Hugo]

10mm sounds good. More in the magazine than .45 anything and Glock is very reliable. Not sure what ammo costs are for your choices.

 

[PapaG]

45 auto, 255 or 260 Keith swc hard cast and a near-max load of Unique and you can shoot through a decent sized hog.

 

[mavracer]

.45 Super really has very little more recoil or blast.

Only about double the free recoil energy that the 1911 was designed for.

The other issue is why not .45 Colt for a trail gun, instead of .44 Magnum?

because some days my 44s get lonely. other than that I got no clue

 

[Dane17]

I think 357 is fine for pigs.

9mm won't, ask me how I know.....

 

[Hamilton Felix]

I came that close to buying a a camo Glock 20 with 6 inch barrel. A little research had shown me that with the right loadings and some barrel length, the 10mm is "almost a .41 Magnum." Still wish I'd tried it.

Also, as a 1911 fan, I've long had an itch for the LAR Grizzly in .45 Win Mag. I did own a Wildey once, but Wildey and Desert Eagle are ... unwieldy. If you're willing to go with an oddball like the .45 Super, then an oddball like .45 Win Mag should be considered.

But if you're not hung up on autoloaders for trail carry, life (and handloading) will get a lot simpler when you just strap on a nice stainless .44 Mag S&W Mountain Gun. I can tell you that with some of Pioneer Ammo's old 320 grain "bear loads" fired from the slender 4" barrel of my Mountain Gun, you can definitely tell something has happened in your hand. Even with the Paychmayr Gripper, it's less fun than my single action Freedom Arms in .454 with full loads. But the Mountain Gun is relatively easy to carry in the field.

If I decided to step up from a 1911 with +P 230 gr. JHP (and recoil spring to match the ammo so I don't beat the gun), I'd probably just grab that Mountain Gun. But from where I sit, the 1911 in .45 is great for general defense, while the .44 Mag is a hunting gun.

 

[MachIVshooter]

With .45 Super you can use buffalobore 255 grain LFN's at around 1040 fps
for big animals. I think this is a WAY better round then any 10MM loading for big animals.

What makes you think that?

WFN lead bullets are not designed to expand, just penetrate and cut a swath with their meplat. The difference you're talking about is .051". A 255 gr. .45 Super and a 220 gr. 10mm hardcast load are going to perform very similarly, though a little deeper penetration with the 10mm due to it's slightly smaller diameter and higher velocity (1,200-1,250 FPS).

Either will do what you're asking, but the 10mm is my choice. Higher capacity. That said, I do sometimes carry my S&W 4506 or 4516-1 loaded with 240 gr. Sierra JHC's at 1,100 FPS.

 

[K1500]

I thought about a super before I got a 10. The nice thing is you can run regular .45 auto in it. There are four downsides as I see them.

1. Super ammo is scarce.
2. You are essentially pushing the gun beyond its design parameters.
3. Lower capacity
4. Less penetration

I went with a 10 and am glad I did. Factory ammo is the same price as .45, and I can get full power 10 for less than $30 a box. In addition, I am not pushing a gun harder than SAMMI spec. The super just seemed a bit 'dicey'. If all I had was a .45 and was comfortable with the conversion, I would go for it. If you are buying a new gun, I would go 10 all the way.

 

[Prosser]

Full sized 1911 weighs 2.1 pounds loaded with 230 grain HP's, at 1130 fps
.45 Super
230 grains 1100 fps Recoil Energy of 11 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 19 fps.
200 grains 1200 fps:Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps.
10 MM
200 grains at 1172 fps

I don't really see how you can say the same designed guns that fire 10MM
are underdesigned when used with .45 Super.
Colt, Glock, etc. use the same basic guns for 10MM as they do for .45 ACP, with spring changes, and maybe slightly stronger materials, and I'm not really sure if this is true.

The advantage of the .45 super is in bullets ranging from 230-260 grains, bullets the 10MM can't fire, or aren't common. Don't have any 10MM loads for 220 grain bullets.

However, a 200 grain Truncated cone, @1200 fps in 10mm, or .45 Super would, it seems to me, penetrate hog or bear well. Not ideal, but better then a sharp stick.

Looking at the recoil figures, I do wonder that if for longevity wise, 200 grains at 1200 fps might not be the ideal combination for a 1911 style firearm.
John Moses Browning originally started the .45 ACP with a 200 grain bullet.
His main concern was horse penetration. Detonics suggested 200 grain bullets at 1200 fps, and I shot those every other day, for 2-3 hours a day, at 1200 fps, for 5 years, with no harm to my Detonics Mark VI.

Dane: like to hear your pig hunting stories.

Odd part is the 255's at 1010 fps run Recoil Energy of 12 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 19 fps. The case capacity limits potential recoil.

And as for running the guns too hard:
This isn't 1900. Metals are WAY stronger. The high end of .45 ACP is a 230 grain @ 940 fps 800-x. Recoil Energy of 8 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 16 fps. So, do the math.
Between recoil energy you have 20% between .45 Super and max 45 ACP, and, this isn't even plus p.
For Recoil velocity you have an even smaller amount. 16 fps vs. 18 or 19 fps.
I'm not buying that a modern 1911 design, or Glock, can't handle that minimal increase in recoil energy with either springs, special guide rods, or retiming the gun.

If we start barking around the .460 Rowland, we have a whole different kettle of fish.

How about links for reasonable 10mm ammo? The only time I see it is looking at Buffalobore, and Double tap.

Just looked at Double tap, and they do load 1120 fps 230 grain LFN's in 10MM, for about 1 dollar a round. I'd think that's pretty close to the .45 Super, enough so a pig wouldn't know the difference.

 

[DBR]

I had Gary Hindeman (sp) the son of Ace Hindeman (sp) the gunsmith who popularized the 45 Super do a conversion for me on my 5" 1911. At the time, he claimed he had a demo gun that had more than 30,000 rds of 45 super through it and was still in spec.

I still have the gun but I have converted it back to 45ACP. Although the gun functioned perfectly with both 45 Super and 45 ACP ammo, I was uncomfortable with a 27# dual recoil spring beating on the barrel feet in an expensive gun.

I decided if I needed 45 Super power I would carry my 44mag revolver with 300gr hard cast ammo.

 

[2zulu1]

I have a G20 SF 200gr WFNs through a standard length Lonewolf barrel set up for this very problem. While I also have a M29 Mountain gun to carry if the mood strikes, my everyday carry at my place is a Colt 1911 in 38Super stoked with handloaded 125gr XTPs at 1491fps.

If I'm shooting a hog/s it'll be because it's too close and not in a sociable mood; head shot should make for an attitude readjustment.

 

[memphisjim]

google underwood ammo its the hottest 10mm ammo and fairly cheap
also youtube underwood ammo a guy tests all 10mm he can get his hands on
doubletap ammo doesnt meet their claimed velocity underwood exceeds it

 

[orionengnr]

Think about ammo re-supply. Unless you reload your own ammo, yo're not likely to find 45 Super ammo in your local "Wally World' store. Stick with the 10 MM; that's all the gun you need.

Really? Does your local Wal-Mart carry 10mm? None of the four in my local area do...which puts us back at square one.
Whether you choose 10mm or .45 Super, you had better be handloading.

FWIW, I own both

 

[Prosser]

I may take a day off and spend some money at our next gunshow.
LEO/friend went, said it was absolutely packed. Couldn't even walk in the aisles, and far better then the Cow Palace flea market.

I asked him to shop a bit, but, he didn't buy anything, and only looked.
He said ammo was cheap, and plentiful.

Should ask him what he thinks of 10MM.

Rich:
Thanks for adding what I was thinking;-)
memphisjim: THANK YOU for the link to a decent, reasonable reloader. He's now on my list.

 

[AK_Maine_iac]

Wal-Mart, Fred Myer, Sentry Hardware, Sportswman's Warehouse all carry 10mm here in Fairbanks.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Wal-Mart, Fred Myer, Sentry Hardware, Sportswman's Warehouse all carry 10mm here in Fairbanks.

Yeah, makes perfect sense in AK. Here in MI, you can't find anything full power except once in a while PMC and the occasional Win Silver-tip box-o-twenty for over a buck a piece. It's pretty much mail-order only here now.

 

[Carne Frio]

You can at least do mail order, unlike up here in our cool paradise.

http://ammoseek.com/?gun=handgun&cal=1&type=&grains=0&mfg=&keywords=&sortby=cpr

 

[bassdogs]

The way you talk on this thread, you would think the prey was a 1000lb hgzilla or rino. A HC 357 will reliably take down anything you might happen on anywhere in the lower 48. Think this is just I need a bigger speciality gun just because I do! What ever floats your boat I guess. But NEED ONE for a better trail gun?? IMHO I think not.

 

[jmr40]

I chose 10mm.

A 357 will equal it, but you need at least 6" of barrel and 8" is better. If the gun is to be carried, which means shorter barrels, a G-29 or G-20 will be significantly more potent than a 357 when fired through a 4" or shorter barrel. The fact that you have a significanly lighter smaller gun that holds 3X as many rounds as a 357 doesn't hurt.

Remember, you are carryng a trail gun for the same reason you carry in town. The odds of having to use it against agressive animals is quite rare. If you do need to use your gun it will most likely be against agressive humans. Choose your gun with that in mind first, wild animals is secondary.

While 10mm availibility is spotty in some locations, it is only a mouse click away from anyone, and is priced about the same as 45 ACP. No reason not to own 10mm just beacuse your local Walmart doesn't carry it.

 

[K1500]

^^^ this.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Is this sidearm for hunting hogs, or protection from them? Wild hogs are not known for unprovoked attacks on humans. I fear two-legged animals in the wild much more than four-legged ones, personally.