Pistol Grip Stock for Mossberg and "Cruiser Ready"

[orangeninja]

So I’ve transitioned from Remington 870s to Mossberg 590a1s (for multiple reasons which I will get into on another thread). I’ve always used pistol gripped stocks (not pistol grip alone) on my shotguns (Speedfeed, Choate, even Tapco) and have had excellent results, especially in close quarter training scenarios. Recently I transitioned to Mossberg and when going in to buy a Tapco M4 style stock (like I had on my 870) the guys in the store balked saying I can’t actuate the safety or slide release very well on a pistol gripped Mossberg. I already kinda figured that would be the case but I told them that if I were to ever deploy the gun, it would be “cruiser ready” since my training to date has always been with shotguns in this condition. Basically this means hammer down on an empty chamber, safety off. This keeps the safety, slide release, etc. out of the way and as non-factors if in a shoot/don’t shoot, high stress situation. Yeah, I got a couple of funny looks…but I know I’m not the only person who does it like this.

Carrying in condition 1 (or whatever you call it) with a hammer cocked on a loaded chamber (even with the safety engaged) doesn’t give me a warm fuzzy since a dropped shotgun can AD, and the time it would take to disengage a safety versus racking a fresh round in the chamber is negligible as far as I can tell. Anyone else have experience in this? What is your preference? Has anyone trained in both methods? I notice there doesn’t seem to be a lot of trainers talking about “cruiser ready” status on the interwebz…so I’m curious. I’m not saying I can’t be convinced or learn another way of doing this, but I’m not seeing the big advantage to chamber loaded with the safety on.

 

[oneounceload]

I detest safeties on my guns - either the gun is loaded and ready to shoot or it is not, so I agree with you about using the cruiser ready method, especially if you are putting a pistol-type grip on a Mossberg (or any top tang safety gun_

 

[pezo]

Cruiser ready is the way for me. Magazine loaded, chamber empty hammer spring at rest. If the shotgun is being grabbed to be used pumping it at that time is a natural. Agreed

 

[Sam1911]

If the ONLY thing you're going to do with your shotgun is pick it up and immediately fire it, and then unload it, "Cruiser ready" is fine.

That's more or less how I leave my own immediate-action shotgun for quick deployment.

However, if you're going to be using the gun for practice, on the range, for competition, in the field, in clays games and such, not being able to use the safety is a pretty huge problem.

Now, of course, you CAN use the safety on a pistol-gripped Mossberg -- it's just a minor inconvienience. However, if you are doing any of those other things I mentioned above, it's something you will need to accept and do.

Can't work through a shotgun class, or shoot a match if you're needing to empty the chamber and drop the hammer every time you go back to a "ready" position. That would be awkward, prone to alarming "whoopsies", and not allowed by range rules, generally.

So, sure, as your standby posture for storing the weapon, that's just fine. For training, practice, and competitions you'll need to use the safety.

 

[MikeJackmin]

Almost every hunter I know (myself included) has, at least once, lost a shot on a game animal because they failed to disengage the safety. It's just human nature to forget little things when you are excited and your attention is focused elsewhere.

Good training can mitigate it of course, but for many people, I think the use of a safety on a defensive gun can be more of a hazard than a help.

This is one of the reasons why I like a slide-action shotgun in this role, instead of an autoloader. Similarly, my defensive pistols have DA triggers and do not even have safeties.

I'll still use a safety when hunting, because walking across uneven ground in condition 0 is always somewhat hazardous, and a lost shot is not the end of the world.

 

[Sam1911]

Are you more likely to forget to disengage a safety or forget to rack the gun before you shoot?

I guess if you're using "cruiser ready" instead of a safety then you've made a judgment that you're more likely to remember to rack the slide before the shot than flip off the safety before the shot. But I don't know, personally. I think I'm more likely to snick off the safety, as that's what I've trained to do.

 

[jdh]

Sam,

I would phrase the question more along the lines of:
In the stress of a hot situation are you more likely to be able to manipulate the big ole slide or the tiny safety?

 

[Sam1911]

That is a fair point, but it requires getting past the first hurdle, of remembering to DO something to ready the gun.

MikeJackimin above said:

...It's just human nature to forget little things when you are excited and your attention is focused elsewhere.

Good training can mitigate it of course, but for many people, I think the use of a safety on a defensive gun can be more of a hazard than a help.

My point was that nothing to that point is helped by using "cruiser ready" over a safety. You still have something to forget, and I don't see how remembering one or the other is more likely.

However, once you've remembered the slide action is more of a gross-motor function than operating the safety.

On the other hand it is one that is pretty easily fouled (short-stroking a pump gun leads to a significant jam), so it still seems an imperfect answer to the question.

I don't think the question has a perfect answer, though. You can't forget details like what condition of readiness the gun is in, and you have to operate it skillfully -- either way.

 

[orangeninja]

Speaking for myself, I always rack the slide when coming on target for 3 reasons. 1 is training, it's what was drilled into my brain through repetition. 2 since we often shared shotguns, I never assumed the gun was either safe or ready. I always went through the "make ready" ritual. Dropping the hammer on an empty chamber when you need it the most is just unhealthy. Likewise, safety or not, if there is a round in the chamber and you drop the gun it can discharge, shotguns do not have hammer blocks (so I was told), cruiser ready mitigates the risk of an AD. 3 it is platform agnostic Remington, Mossberg, doesn't matter rack and fire. A more consistent manual of arms.

Now training, that would be a problem. I wonder if all civilian training requires use of the safety rather than an empty chamber.

Hunting? I don't hunt, so no problem there.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

What goes a PG stock get you that's worth not being able to use the safety very well?

 

[herrwalther]

I know many police officers with shotguns in the vehicle and they all carry them cruiser ready. When I was deployed overseas, the short barreled Mossbergs were also carried cruiser ready since we only really used them for breaching or other specialty purposes.

A pistol grip stock on a Moss forces you to change your grip angle to reach the tang safety. This is THE main reason why I picked the 870 over the 500 for my personal shotgun. Anytime I ever used a 500 for military use, I never touched the safety unless I was cleaning it.

 

[jdh]

The best "argument" used to support cruiser ready I've heard is interoperability. The different types of shotguns have controls in non-standard places. A Remington, Mossberg, Ithaca, Stevens, Winchester, or what ever brand pump that has the hammer down on an empty chamber, safety off, mag loaded they all require the same actions to put the gun into action. Rack the slide and pull the trigger. If I were trained on the 870 while the SO issued the 590 and retrieved a deputy's shotgun from his car I would not have to worry about where the slide release of safety were in the confusion of an incident.

 

[Uniquedot]

Almost every hunter I know (myself included) has, at least once, lost a shot on a game animal because they failed to disengage the safety. It's just human nature to forget little things when you are excited and your attention is focused elsewhere.

That's exactly why I prefer an 870 in a defense weapon. The middle joint of your trigger finger knows as if it had it's own brain whether the safety is on or off and it can be disengaged at the instant the trigger is pulled. You never, ever have to break you're firing grip like you do with Mossbergs. If an armed criminal breaks into my home I sure don't want him to hear the action working or even a safety click. Then again I no longer keep mine even loaded as my dogs are my number one alarm that I may need to grab a gun.

 

[orangeninja]

Andrew, to answer your question, I like the M4 style stocks. It is adjustable (body armor v no body armor), it "chokes up" if you will for tight maneuvering better (like slicing a tight corner), it is a consistent "feel" with my M4, and I can collapse it to be more concealable (if the occasion should call for that). I particularly like the Tapco M4 stock (let the flames begin) because of the curve of the stock allowing for a cheek weld while firing (unlike the straight pull stocks). Also I strongly dislike the recoil dampeners used in Blackhawk and a few others. Oh how I wish I could try a Magpul stock on my 590, but alas, all promises and no delivery. It seems like the Magpul would be a compromise. Still very “pistol grip” in feel but with the ability to reach the slide release and safety for the occasions where I may be training and need to do so.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

My home defense shotgun is a PG only Ithaca clone kept in "cruiser ready" mode: safety off, hammer down on empty chamber, magazine loaded. However the safety is accessable to the trigger finger. I am not sure I would want Mossberg or other top tang thumb safety shotgun with a pistol grip w or w/o shoulder stock. I have had more uses for shotguns than just personal protection and need more options than "cruiser ready" mode, which is optimal to me for defensive use.

...(short-stroking a pump gun leads to a significant jam)...

My low esteem much despised S&W 916 is defective in this respect; short stroking the action simply pushes the cartridge back into the magazine.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I use a 500 with a youth model non PG stock, and mossberg factory GR sights, with a neoprene cheekpiece that raises the comb high enough for me to get a solid cheekweld while looking through the sights.
I've never used body armor while using the shotgun, but The short length works just fine with a reasonable amount of winter clothing or a t-shirt.

The stock i use has two very important advantages over the M4 stock from tapco.

1. it has a fixed comb height that is correct.

2. i can use the safety and slide release.

Cruiser ready is a system that is designed for untrained people as a way to avoid shooting themselves, not as an efficient way to run a shotgun, and it's much more difficult to make a shotgun safe by returning it to cruiser ready than it is to use the safety.
The mossberg tang safety is ambidextrous, reliable, and easy to hit.
It's probably the best shotgun safety out there.

long story short, put a normal stock on your gun, cut it to an acceptable length, make sure the comb height is correct, and use it like it's a mossberg 500. the M4 has a different manual of arms anyway, so trying to make the mossberg feel like an m4 buys you nothing.

 

[MikeJackmin]

My point was that nothing to that point is helped by using "cruiser ready" over a safety. You still have something to forget, and I don't see how remembering one or the other is more likely.

Yes, that's true. It really boils down to little more than personal preference.

I suppose an autoloader with a glock-like firing mechanism would be pretty close to ideal for this application.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Go take any reputable shotgun instructor's basic defensive shotgun class, and see how your gear choices and your procedural choices work out for you when someone else is dictating what you do with your shotgun.

 

[orangeninja]

Andrew, you said "Cruiser ready is a system that is designed for untrained people as a way to avoid shooting themselves, not as an efficient way to run a shotgun, and it's much more difficult to make a shotgun safe by returning it to cruiser ready than it is to use the safety."

So which is it? For people who are "less trained" or is it "much more difficult"? It would seem that any amount of forethought on the part of any trainer would cause one to be mutually exclusive of the other.

As an aside, I trained in cruiser ready professionally. But since I am no longer in an armed profession, any follow on training I get will be paid for out of my own pocket, on my own time, and I will have to adhere to whatever quirks that particular instructor may have.

Private training may be the only reason why I go with a youth stock over the M4 style stock. I have yet to hear of another valid reason. I considered the comb height you mentioned but in retrospect, I was able to get a pretty good cheek rest with the Tapco...so I will respectfully disagree with that as a "plus" the fixed stock has over an M4 style.

As for the different battery of arms between a M4 and a shotgun, that's forehead slapping obvious which is why I said I prefer it for the feel, it's consistent in shooting stance, shooting and moving, etc. You know "elbow down" versus "chicken wing" and all those other colorful terms we hear when training on moving and shooting.

I'll probably just use a youth stock of some kind...but I'll research training in my area first. I do not like the full length Speed Feed on the gun now, maybe I'll just ebay that sucker off. Who knows, maybe Magup will finally put something on the market for Mossberg by the time I make up my mind.

 

[Sam1911]

and it's much more difficult to make a shotgun safe by returning it to cruiser ready than it is to use the safety."

I gathered that the "much more difficult" part was only in relation to the question of how to go back to "cruiser ready" after you've shot or decided not to. In other words, when you finish a string of, say, 3 shots and you need to top up and get back to your ready position.

How does one clear the chamber and go back to hammer down without unloading completely, etc.? I know how it works, personally, but it is a lot harder than simply putting the safety (back) on. And less of the sort of "futzing" around you want to be doing when a trainer is waiting on you to run the next drill or what have you.

 

[Nickel Plated]

I personally prefer cruiser ready on my Winchester SXP. But the safety coincidentally just happens to be in the perfect spot. Your trigger finger's default position is (or atleast should be) off the trigger. For most that's resting on the front of the trigger guard. On the Winchesters the safety is right under your finger. So if you have to take it off, just press and pull your finger back to the trigger. You always know if your safety is on or not because your finger is sitting on it.

But generally I don't see the big issue of safety placement. Like I said I keep it cruiser ready, safety off whenever the shotgun serves HD duty where I may have to put it into action quickly. At the range, who cares. The targets aren't charging you with a knife. You can take an extra third of a second to reach around for a tang mounted safety on a pistol gripped Mossberg.

If it's a big enough issue on your 500. You can call Mossberg and order a Maverick 88 trigger group with the cross bolt. They are interchangeable. Pull out the tang safety parts, mount the 88 FCG and plug up the old hole in the tang. You're good to go.

 

[orangeninja]

Andrew, for me I just open the action and dump the chambered shell and the actuated shell into my hand and reinsert both into the magazine. It takes about 3 seconds if I check the chamber with my finger before dropping the hammer. Go ahead, grab your boomstick and try it yourself.

Anyway, I plan on spending a little time next year training back up so just to be safe I ordered the Magpul, it's a compromise but I love Magpul stuff so I'm sure it'll work out.

Thanks for the input all.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I don't know about Mossberg but cruiser ready on an 870 the action is cycled on an empty weapon (which cocks the hammer). This locks the action in battery so vehicle vibration and gravity cannot inadvertantly cause the action to open. Then the magazine is loaded. The action release must be operated to chamber a shotshell.

I can't remember if the manual safety is engaged or not but on any firearm I use for defense I always engage the manual safety because it conditions me to always disengage it. (I believe it's poor tactical practice to stow a defense gun with the safety disengaged and assume that the manual safety will always be "off" when you need it in an emergency.)

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Andrew, for me I just open the action and dump the chambered shell and the actuated shell into my hand and reinsert both into the magazine. It takes about 3 seconds if I check the chamber with my finger before dropping the hammer. Go ahead, grab your boomstick and try it yourself.

I pull my thumb 3/8" of an inch to the rear.

 

[orangeninja]

Shawn, your vehicles do not lock the slide into place? It is possible to cycle the action while secured? I've heard of some guys taping the slide action with a strip of masking tape (very old school) but the one's I've seen/used secure the shotgun between the slide and the receiver or otherwise render the action secure, there is no way the slide could vibrate the action open. I think different departments may also have a different interpretation of "cruiser ready". What you describe sounds like what I've called "cruiser safe" in which case the safety should be on "safe".

I think the "cruiser ready" is really less about quick deployment as the gun is typically locked but more about safety during deployment. It forces you to check the gun at the beginning of shift, ensuring the safety is not an impediment and that the trigger mechanism and hammer function correctly, that the chamber is in fact clear and remains so until fired, etc. I am making some assumptions here because I've never asked "why" with any expectation of an in depth answer and the only explanation ever given to me was about speed and if the gun were dropped.

I for one do not see one as superior to the other with the exception of working in a team or pairs where someone may have a chambered shotgun, I still have concerns about the gun being dropped and firing (again the no hammer block thing), and maybe the less intricate movement of racking a slide under stress than finding a safety button. Either way, someone would likely revert back to their training which is why it is important to find the right training and then practice, practice, and practice some more afterward.