Please help me select my first safe (and by safe I mean RSC)!

[KP Texan]

Okay guys, I've been browsing this site for a number of years and you seem like by far the best resource for gun safe advice. A little background on my situation: some of my firearms ended up missing several weeks ago and I'm distraught to say the least. The value of these weapons probably wasn't much over $1500 but they had more sentimental value than anything. I've now come to the realization that I need to secure my remaining guns and any guns that I purchase in the future. Due to my financial situation, I've set my spending limit to about $800. Trust me, I would love to have a nice Graffunder but that simply is not an option at this point in my life. After quite a bit of research, I think I've narrowed myself down to three viable options:

Winchester TS-22-11 ($758 after tax): http://www.tractorsupply.com/tools/safes/winchester-reg-gun-safe-1043297

Pros:
Fit and finish
La Gard Lock
12- 1.25" locking bolts on all 4 sides of door
External hinges
Like the color and silver hardware

Cons:
I have to transport it myself
Made in China
Lifetime safe warranty but 1 year lock warranty ($50 more will get me 10yr on the lock)

Liberty CN23-GM ($745 after tax): http://www.samsclub.com/sams/shop/product.jsp?productId=183114

Pros:
Made in USA
Sargent and Greenleaf Lock
Lifetime safe warranty and 5 year lock warranty

Cons:
I have to transport it myself
Internal hinges
Only has locking bolts on one side of the door
Interior Fit and Finish Didn't seem that great

Bighorn Classic 5928ECC-SPL ($600 no tax): http://www.costco.com/Browse/Produc...=0&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1

Pros:
Cost
Delivered to my house
8 - 1" Locking bolts on two sides of door
External Hinges
Internal lighting
Storage on back of door

Cons:
Can't see it in person
Securam lock
Made in China
Lifetime safe warranty but 1 year lock warranty ($75 more for 10yr lock warranty)
Gold Trim


Those are the three best choices I've found. While I was at TSC, I looked at a Cannon safe but I didn't think it was as nice as either the Winchester or the Liberty that I saw at Sam's. I called all three manufacturers today to get a feel for customer service and they all seemed surprisingly good. Right now, I like the Winchester (made by Granite) the best and my gut us telling me to go that way even though it is the most expensive of the three. I really liked the fact that it had 12 bolts all the way around the door; just seemed the most secure to me. Also, the La Gard lock had a solid feel to it and I'm pretty sure it was metal. One of the Cannons at TSC had a Securam lock (same as on the Bighorn) and it did not seem as nice as the La Gard or the S&G on the Liberty. I will, of course, be bolting this thing down to my foundation within a closet. What do you guys think? Which one would you choose?

Thanks so much,

Wes

 

[a1abdj]

All three are going to be roughly the same from a fire/security standpoint.

I tend to lean Liberty, but only because I know they have a good written warranty AND actually back it up when you call them on it.

I know you haven't seen the Bighorn in person, but I have. Pretty plain safes. Black textured paint with silk screened gold logo on the door. Interior is a standard grey felt with adjustable shelves. Smells like China

I don't think you could go wrong with any of them given your stated purpose.

 

[KP Texan]

Thanks for the quick reply! So the number of actual bolts and their locations isn't really a factor? What about lock brand? Yeah that seems to be the #1 complaint of the Bighorn: the smell! I would need to air it out for a day or two with a fan...

Thanks so much,

Wes

 

[donny640]

I looked at some safes at cabellas a couple years ago and their prices seem to be fair. Have not done alot of research on the external parts of a safe but it might be worth looking into.

 

[a1abdj]

The number of door bolts isn't as big of a factor as their location. The weaker the door, the more important the equal distribution of those bolts becomes. On all of these safes, the addition of top and bottom bolts is a bonus. If you're bolting the safe to the floor, you're cutting off the easiest access to prying on the top or bottom of the door anyway.

As far as the electronic locks go, I've had better luck with LaGard Basic locks than I have S&G 6120s.

 

[KP Texan]

The Winchester safe is the only one of those three to have top and bottom locking bolts and it also has a La Gard lock. Maybe this would be the slightly better option for me? All in all, I like the feel of the Winchester the best and I like the styling the best. Also, in this thread, txjohng was apparently taken care of by Granite (the maker of the Winchester): http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=468245&highlight=securam&page=2 . Or, are all of these safes so close that I should just get the cheapest one (Bighorn) and put the rest of the money towards one of my replacement guns? I know it seems like I'm asking the same questions over and over, but I just want to do the right thing before I drop the cash on it.

Thanks so much,

Wes

 

[KP Texan]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I purchased the Winchester safe from TSC and that I have been quite satisfied. Honestly, there was a bit of a cosmetic issue with one of the handles but what impressed me most was the customer service from Granite. They were more than willing (an apologetic) to send me a new handle out immediately. This makes me feel like if I have another issue with the safe then I will be able to get a hold of someone and get decent customer service. What makes this deal even sweeter right now is that, as of yesterday, TSC started offering a $200 Gift Card on this very safe. Luckily, since I bought the safe last week, TSC is honoring my purchase and giving me the gift card. I know where Christmas gifts for some people in the family are coming from this year!!.....or I could just buy myself a Husqvarna chainsaw

Link: http://www.tractorsupply.com/conten...ards?cm_mmc=Email-_-Ecom-_-20101103-_-rebates

-Wes

 

[a1abdj]

Good deal. I'm sure the safe will serve you well.

I've done some work for Granite before, and they seem to have their act together. The only real issue I've had with them, is that some of their safes don't use UL rated locks. If I would have to open one of these safes, I would need to wait for them to send me the parts, as they aren't something that I would have access to through any other source. Sometimes this could cause a delay of a few days.

 

[KP Texan]

I was actually kind of impressed by the lock on this safe. Although it's not a super high end lock, it is a La Gard - Kaba Mas Basic series which I'm pretty sure is a UL Listed lock. When compared side by side to the Securam locks on the Cannon safes, it feels much more solid since the housing is metal rather than plastic (although I'm sure the really important components have nothing to do with the keypad housing). Anyway, now that there is a $200 giftcard rebate on this $700 safe, you'd be hard pressed to find a better safe deal if you're on a budget.

-Wes

 

[sabre66]

Winchester TS-22-11 fire protection

Does anybody know what the actual level of fire protection is in this safe sold at Tractor Supply? (how many sheets of drywall are used in body and door)

It seems comparable to the Winchester Ranger 19 series, but i can't find any detailed specs on the TS-22-11. The Ranger weighs more, but is slightly smaller than the TS-22-11. But the TS-22-11 has more bolts (12 vs 10). I'm confused. And now that Winchester has improved their fire ratings and updated their website and only has the 2011 catalog available online.

I can't afford a high end safe so I'm going thru the same grueling process KP Texan did to find the best low-end safe.

Thanks in advance.

 

[KP Texan]

I'm pretty sure that mine says it is rated for 45 minutes at 1400 Degrees F. I'll try to remember and check when I get home from work.

-Wes

 

[sabre66]

Ok great, thanx Wes. If it is listed as 45 mins I'll be rushing to Tractor Supply as soon as the snow clears.

 

[heeler]

Well dont think that 45 minutes is truely 45 minutes in a true house fire.
It's not.

 

[sabre66]

I'm sure the fire ratings are biased since no safe is tested in a 1200-1400 F fire for the entire length of the test. It's more likely a gradual progression from 0 - peak temp. I think any rated safe would survive 30 mins in a typical house fire with no FRS delays. Unless of course the burning house collapses on top of the safe or there happens to be accelerants in that particular room. Now if FRS takes more than that I might be screwed.

I'm more interested in the amount of fire resistant material that is used in the walls and door of the safe I buy. The BigHorn Classic I'm looking into has one layer throughout the safe and is rated for 30 mins @ 1200 F and costs $599. Now if the Winchester has 2 layers in the walls and 3 layers in the door and is rated for 45 mins @ 1400 F and costs $699, then I'd spend the extra $100 since it appears it would easily last longer in a fire. If it turns out the Winchester has the same amount of material as the BigHorn then I might want to save the $100.

Personally I like the color and door accesories the BigHorn Classic offers (and price), but the 5-spoke handle, 12 locking bolts, 100-lb heavier body, LaGard Digital Lock, and possibility of greater fire resistance of the Winchester have me leaning that way.

Decisions, decisions...hopefully KP Texan has good news.

 

[KP Texan]

Sabre,

My apologies because I was mistaken. I took a look at my safe and it is rated for 30 minutes at 1400 Deg. F (see pic of the label). They did a good job of covering all the board so it is difficult to tell how many layers but it seems to be two layers. I wouldn't let 15 minutes be a deal breaker for you though. I'm also pretty certain that all 12 locking bolts are active since I think they must be active to work for an external hinge; I'll reconfirm when I go home for lunch today. I'm still thrilled with this safe and it has worked flawlessly for me. I have looked at numerous other models (and I still sneak a peek at safes when my wife isn't looking) and the Winchester simply seems the highest quality for the money. Granite security has also been a good company to deal with when I have questions. I actually paid the extra $50 for the no questions asked 10 year warranty which covers a locksmith to be sent out for even the electronic lock.

-Wes

The Label on the Safe Door:


She fits perfectly in the closet (please don't mind the clutter..it's temporary )

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Lots of safes are made by the same company...ProSteel...I know they make Browning and Bass Pro Shops Redhead safes. Look on one of the upper corners of the backside for a metal ProSteel label....I have a Browning. It's ok. If it weren't for me wanting a fancy gloss paint job, I would have bought a Cannon at Tractor Supply.

 

[CHALK22]

Just a note on buying from Costco, if you choose to go that way. I bought a Cannon from them last year and was very impresssed. Evidently they build them to order, as mine took about 6 weeks to get to me. They has stated that they are made to order, and no stock is kept, so I knew it was going to be a bit to recieve it. It was delivered to my garage by a truck freight company who made sure that I was going to be home to recieve it. They usually state "curbside delivery" but I got lucky and it was raining, and they guy asked if I wanted it in the garage. Overall I was very impressed with the safe and service in general, and it fits into the closet perfectly Their measurements were spot on. Another feature I liked on the Cannon was the internal 110v outlet for lights/dehumidifier. Also the Cannon was much nicer than the Big Horn that they had on display at the local warehouse. I think I paid $600 including shipping. Watch for that little bonus!

Okay I just looked at your top post again, and I would tell you to steer clear of that Big Horn safe. I was not impressed with it at all. If you can spend a little more, you would probably be happier in the long run. The one they had on display in the local warehouse was beat up pretty bad, and I know everyone in the store had thier little fingers on it, but the one I saw, all the handles were loose, and the e-lock was actually falling off the door!

 

[a1abdj]

know everyone in the store had thier little fingers on it, but the one I saw, all the handles were loose, and the e-lock was actually falling off the door!

That's pretty common for store displays from any manufacturer. You would be surprised at how much warranty work is actually performed on the showroom floor.

 

[sabre66]

Excellent! Thanks guys I appreciate all the feedback. I'm pretty certain the Winchester is the way to go for me and my budget. I've been doing so much research on this purchase I feel like I could build my own. The TS-22-11 model appears to be built specifically for Tractor Supply based on my research and is kind of an oddity.

Let me explain my last statement. The closest other Winchester model to this one is the Legend 21 (2009 model). The Legend is 2" smaller in diameter (59x28x22), has 12 locking bolts, a 45 min @1200 F fire rating, weighs 525-lbs, and the same other features as the TS-22-11. Very similar to the Legend is the Ranger 19 (2010 model), same dimemsions (59x28x22), but only 8 locking bolts, and a 45 min @1400 F fire rating, weighs 510-lb, and has a 3-spoke handle, other features the same.

They don't make the Legend any longer, but seems it used to sell for around $1000 - $1200. The Ranger 19 sells for $800 - $1100 (online). So the TS-22-11 which sells for $699 @ Tractor Supply seems like a bargain.

Compared to the BigHorn Classic, the TS-22-11 is $100 more expensive, but has more locking bolts (12 vs 8), better e-lock (LaGard vs SecuRam), a 5-spoke handle (vs 3-spoke), 2 layers of internal drywall protection rated to 1400 F (instead of one layer @ 1200 F), and a less expensive extended lock warranty ($50 vs $75). All in all about a $75 price difference in the end and I you have to pick up the Winchester yourself (can be a plus or minus).

I'm dreading the part where we struggle to lift the 500-lb beast off the truck bed, drag it via handcart through the snow covered yard, up the 6 rear steps, through the kitchen and down 12 more steps to the basement...ugghh! But I'm sure I'll be smiling after I get it set in place. Thanx again.

 

[sabre66]

Wes did you take the door off to make it easier to move? If so how hard was it to take off? Any special tools needed?

I have a feeling that's the only way I'll get it down in my basement. Plus I'd rather be fighting 350-lbs instead of 507-lbs on a set of steps, even with 1-2 people assisting.

 

[LTROI]

I don't want to cause any hard feelings here but I think some of you guys considering buying that Winchester safe at Costco should see how cheaply it is made. A safe dealer on another site bought one of those and just beat on it with a sledge hammer to illustrate that the welds are just stitched and how easily they will break when stressed. You get what you pay for and if it is made in China ... probably less:





http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc420/nwsafe
/Pried%20and%20Torched%20Safes/winchester_hammer.jpg







Whole Thread:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=46&t=333577&page=1

 

[sabre66]

While that is pretty disheartening, I'm also a realist. If somebody wants in your safe bad enough they will get in regardless of how big and strong it is...given enough time. I'm guessing the only thing that would stop the above from happening is to have a safe with thicker steel (and not having a large hammer nearby). It also looks like the top was cut with some type of tool rather than the top just popping off. It also looks like a different model than we are discussing, but it's probably very similarly constructed.

Most safe's under $1000 (and even some over $1000) are 12 gauge steel. Personally I'm not in the position to spend over $1500 to get a 10 gauge or higher grade steel. I'm also not able to handle a safe weighing more than 600-lbs. That kind of limits my options and I'm sure several others. I also don't have too many guns (yet) or valuables to warrant a Fort Knox type safe. For me the safe is more to protect some important paperwork/valuables and limit access to my meager gun collection.

I'm very familiar with the typical types of burglars and the methods used in residential burglaries. It's unlikely that a typical residential burglar is carrying a sledgehammer around with him during the daytime. Most are looking for a quick in/out and searching for small electronics and jewelry able to be pawned sold on the street. They typically aren't prepared to spend the time, make the noise, and carry away the contents of a safe.

Now if you live in secluded area with limited neighbors and passing vehicles then you might in a better position to need a Fort Knox, Amsec, Summit, Patriot, etc. If there's an experienced thief who happens to know you have a whole arsenal in your basement, and knows you don't have any additional security, and that you're gone for 8+ hrs/day...then the chance you will need a better safe increases.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Eh, there are enough tools at my house to open even the toughest gun safe. I guess I might need to get another safe to lock the tools up in.

 

[heeler]

Sabre66,what you said in your post #66 is very true and something I have argued many times in these gun safe threads since I have been a member here.
A lot of people want a gun safe to give a reasonable amount of security for a hunting rifle or two,a shotgun or two and maybe a pistol or two.
Then they throw in their check book,SS card,a credit card or two they dont want to carry with them and maybe the total values of the guns dont exceed $2500.
And for the most part if they live in a reasonably nice area they are probably fine with a 12 gauge gun safe that is in the sub $1200 price range.
But once the value of your goods starts escalating in price or the place where you live is not quite what it used to be it's time to move on to a better system.

Thanks LTROI,I have a funny habit of collecting pictures of breeched safes just to show people that they truely need to research these things and know what they are buying ahead of time.
Of course people like a1abdj already preach this but at times it gets lost on us but pictures can at times bring home this sharp realization.

 

[Ultra]

I'm also a realist. If somebody wants in your safe bad enough they will get in regardless of how big and strong it is...given enough time.

There is a big difference between a minute or two of sledge hammer, or pry bar time, and the time it takes to get into a more secure safe that requires tools the perp may need to bring himself.