ColtPythonElite
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I'll bet it took more than a minute or two of hammer time to peel back the top on that safe.
Please help me select my first safe (and by safe I mean RSC)!
- Thread starter KP Texan
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I doubt that it took more then a minute or two. But if the safe expert on here wants to chime in he could probably give us an estimate based on his experience.
I do know I've seen similar safes that I know i could pop open in a minute with a pry bar.
I do know I've seen similar safes that I know i could pop open in a minute with a pry bar.
I am not the safe expert but that sledge hammer looks like at least a 12 pounder and probably a 16 pounder and those things can do some serious damage on thin steel in a fair hurry.
Now how long that would actually take I do not know.
Although looking at the pictures I would not be surprised if a prying device was not also used.
Now how long that would actually take I do not know.
Although looking at the pictures I would not be surprised if a prying device was not also used.
a1abdj
Member
I've said this before, but it's very easy to put it into perspective.
A safe with the lowest burglary rating (15 minute tool rating - TL-15), made out of the same steel (A36), will have a solid 1" plate body, and a 1.5" plate door. 12 gauge steel is 1/10".
This means that the door (the part actually tested for 15 minutes) of a burglary rated safe is going to be roughly 15 times thicker than a 12 gauge gun safe, and the body 10 times thicker.
For rough estimates, you can divide that down. 1.5" = 15 minutes. 1/10" = 1 minute.
Gun safes with the RSC rating are only tested against a hammer not to exceed 3 pounds in weight or 18" in length, a prying device not to exceed 18" in length, chisels, and a hand held drill for a period of 5 minutes.
Throw a big hammer, or a big pry bar at it, and the person who beat that safe open is probably telling the truth. A few minutes resistance at most.
I think the dealer that posted the photos is being a bit disingenuous, because it appears he's selling safes using the same thin materials (either Liberty or Champion based on the boxed safes in the background). They may not have the same welding weakness, but the thin steel is the same. This is the true weakness.
There are TL-15 plate safes that are skip welded. The difference is the 1" plate will not bend allowing you to pop the welds.
A safe with the lowest burglary rating (15 minute tool rating - TL-15), made out of the same steel (A36), will have a solid 1" plate body, and a 1.5" plate door. 12 gauge steel is 1/10".
This means that the door (the part actually tested for 15 minutes) of a burglary rated safe is going to be roughly 15 times thicker than a 12 gauge gun safe, and the body 10 times thicker.
For rough estimates, you can divide that down. 1.5" = 15 minutes. 1/10" = 1 minute.
Gun safes with the RSC rating are only tested against a hammer not to exceed 3 pounds in weight or 18" in length, a prying device not to exceed 18" in length, chisels, and a hand held drill for a period of 5 minutes.
Throw a big hammer, or a big pry bar at it, and the person who beat that safe open is probably telling the truth. A few minutes resistance at most.
I think the dealer that posted the photos is being a bit disingenuous, because it appears he's selling safes using the same thin materials (either Liberty or Champion based on the boxed safes in the background). They may not have the same welding weakness, but the thin steel is the same. This is the true weakness.
There are TL-15 plate safes that are skip welded. The difference is the 1" plate will not bend allowing you to pop the welds.
Jim Watson
Member
I pointed that out to a friend, so now he locks up his torch cutting tip and carbide saw blades along with his guns.
I think he was just showing that all RSC aren't created equal and especially the Chinese made junk you can buy at Costco. Yes he sells Liberties, Graffunders and several others so he has a biased opinion as I would expect of anyone who is in the business. He doesn't seem to have a lot of good things to say about AMSEC though so my guess is that he doesn't sell those.
And on a similiar note.
I went with my daughter this afternoon to have some keys cut at a nearby Locksmith,one that I had never been to.
While waiting at the counter I saw a Sentry fire safe that was probably 18 inches tall and maybe close to the same width.
The door was pryed open.
I asked about it and they told me a guy brought it in because he no longer could remember the combination.
He told the Locksmith he needed the contents out immediately and do whatever was necessary to do so and it mattered not if they destroyed the safe because he no longer needed it.
The Locksmith grabbed a two foot crow bar and opened it in 3-4 minutes.
The owner popped open a full size plastic trash bag and pulled the contents out.
The Locksmith told me there had to be close to $100,000.00 in that safe!!
He and his partner was floored someone would take such a cheesy security safe,although a pretty good fire safe, and place that much money in it.
Now truely this was a guy in need of a much needed talk to a safe and vault expert if there ever was.
I went with my daughter this afternoon to have some keys cut at a nearby Locksmith,one that I had never been to.
While waiting at the counter I saw a Sentry fire safe that was probably 18 inches tall and maybe close to the same width.
The door was pryed open.
I asked about it and they told me a guy brought it in because he no longer could remember the combination.
He told the Locksmith he needed the contents out immediately and do whatever was necessary to do so and it mattered not if they destroyed the safe because he no longer needed it.
The Locksmith grabbed a two foot crow bar and opened it in 3-4 minutes.
The owner popped open a full size plastic trash bag and pulled the contents out.
The Locksmith told me there had to be close to $100,000.00 in that safe!!
He and his partner was floored someone would take such a cheesy security safe,although a pretty good fire safe, and place that much money in it.
Now truely this was a guy in need of a much needed talk to a safe and vault expert if there ever was.
788Ham
Member
KP Texan,
I just posted on another thread 5 min ago, heres another one to check out, made in Payson, Utah. Freedom Security, WWW.FREEDOMSECURITY.com Toll Free- 866 - 537 - 0165 I saw these first hand 2 days ago, some danged nice safes! Up to 7 gauge steel on the doors, Sargent & Greenlee locks on the doors too! The day I saw them, they had a sale, $1500 for one that was sale priced @ $999, 48 gun, 710 lbs.
Hope this helps!
I just posted on another thread 5 min ago, heres another one to check out, made in Payson, Utah. Freedom Security, WWW.FREEDOMSECURITY.com Toll Free- 866 - 537 - 0165 I saw these first hand 2 days ago, some danged nice safes! Up to 7 gauge steel on the doors, Sargent & Greenlee locks on the doors too! The day I saw them, they had a sale, $1500 for one that was sale priced @ $999, 48 gun, 710 lbs.
Hope this helps!
ColtPythonElite
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788,
A 48 gun safe weighing only 710 lbs seems pretty light to me. What gauge steel was the body? (Your link doesn't go to a safe company)
Edit...Searching around it looks like you were referring to the Fatboy, Jr....12 gauge body... I've seen them at Gander Mountain. They look comparable to the Cannon Wide Body series that Tractory Suppy sells.
A 48 gun safe weighing only 710 lbs seems pretty light to me. What gauge steel was the body? (Your link doesn't go to a safe company)
Edit...Searching around it looks like you were referring to the Fatboy, Jr....12 gauge body... I've seen them at Gander Mountain. They look comparable to the Cannon Wide Body series that Tractory Suppy sells.
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Kevin Rohrer
Member
I bought an inexpensive Treadlock safe 30-years ago and it works just fine. The secret is to put it in the basement out of sight, and don't let anyone else have access to it.
If your safe is in the basement, burglars will never see it. If no one except you has access to it, family members and "friends" won't be able to dip into it.
If your safe is in the basement, burglars will never see it. If no one except you has access to it, family members and "friends" won't be able to dip into it.
Well unfortunately I've had to put off my safe purchase due to some unexpected contract arbitration between the union and county. Can't spend the money if the county is already taking more out of my pocket. Although this may be a blessing in disguise since I came to a realization that if I'm going to spend several hundred dollars on a safe, why not spend a few hundred more and get a heavier duty one that will survive anything that's thrown at it.
If things go our way in the arbitration I'm thinking of splurging on a Patriot "Closet LEO 18-Gun" or "24 Gun Protector" 2-hr safe. Any thoughts?
If things go our way in the arbitration I'm thinking of splurging on a Patriot "Closet LEO 18-Gun" or "24 Gun Protector" 2-hr safe. Any thoughts?
a1abdj
Member
I believe you are talking about the Chinese safes that a US importer is claiming are US made.
If these are the safes I'm thinking of, you can buy the same safe, with a better UL rated lock, with a different name attached to the door, for less money.
A1ABDJ,
It would be the ones sold at www.patriotsafe.com. It seems they were at one time Merlo-Patriot Safes. I searched for reviews and seems everyone that owns one loves it. I haven't been able to find any negative reviews. Only negative thing I found was a long, drawn out post at TGO.com (Tennessee Gun Owners) forum between a couple guys arguing over where they were made and where their manufacturing plant is.
It says on Patriot's homepage "MADE IN USA" and seems to be geared toward military and LEO. Of course this could be a lie, but I would think they would have been sued by now for false advertising if it was a lie. They are A+ Better Business Bureau rated and seem to have a great track record.
The specs seem great - 10 gauge steel, re-lockers, 2-hr fire rated @ 1880F, anti-pry, huge #'s of 4-way locking bolts, lighting system, digital lock w/key, lifetime warranty on everything...etc.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not nieve and maybe it's a bunch of smoke and mirrors as you stated, but how can we tell? I don't like being swindled and with the state of affairs in the US...economic unstability, politic agendas and government corruption...I'm not looking to be taken by a false advertising campaign.
Where do we get the real scoop on this company?
It would be the ones sold at www.patriotsafe.com. It seems they were at one time Merlo-Patriot Safes. I searched for reviews and seems everyone that owns one loves it. I haven't been able to find any negative reviews. Only negative thing I found was a long, drawn out post at TGO.com (Tennessee Gun Owners) forum between a couple guys arguing over where they were made and where their manufacturing plant is.
It says on Patriot's homepage "MADE IN USA" and seems to be geared toward military and LEO. Of course this could be a lie, but I would think they would have been sued by now for false advertising if it was a lie. They are A+ Better Business Bureau rated and seem to have a great track record.
The specs seem great - 10 gauge steel, re-lockers, 2-hr fire rated @ 1880F, anti-pry, huge #'s of 4-way locking bolts, lighting system, digital lock w/key, lifetime warranty on everything...etc.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not nieve and maybe it's a bunch of smoke and mirrors as you stated, but how can we tell? I don't like being swindled and with the state of affairs in the US...economic unstability, politic agendas and government corruption...I'm not looking to be taken by a false advertising campaign.
Where do we get the real scoop on this company?
a1abdj
Member
I can tell you that we have sold Chinese safes that were identical (except for the locks) to the safes they are selling. I can tell you that the locks they are using are not UL rated, and appear to be Chinese. I can also tell you that Merlo is a large safe importer.
I read the thread on TGO, and am interested in the "secret facility" they have. Every other safe manufacturer's locations are well known, even if they don't give public tours.
All signs point to China. Google Steelwater safes and compare the specs.
The fact of the matter is inexpensive safes can not be manufactured in the US. Materials are too expensive. Labor is too expensive. The overhead is too expensive. If you're finding a "good deal" on a safe, it's going to be from China, regardless of the name on the door, or any other claims.
I read the thread on TGO, and am interested in the "secret facility" they have. Every other safe manufacturer's locations are well known, even if they don't give public tours.
All signs point to China. Google Steelwater safes and compare the specs.
The fact of the matter is inexpensive safes can not be manufactured in the US. Materials are too expensive. Labor is too expensive. The overhead is too expensive. If you're finding a "good deal" on a safe, it's going to be from China, regardless of the name on the door, or any other claims.
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a1abdj
Member
I think they're made the same place the Patriots are =)
I wouldn't believe any of the videos or other marketing hype either. Of course this goes for most of the safe manufacturers out there.
What's the boards opinion on a Rhino Metals 56 Series? They are supposedly "Made In USA". I like the warranty too. I've read only good things about Rhino and Bighorn safes.
The product description says the 56 Series is only 450-lb, which is suprisingly light for a 10 gauge body and 2 sheets of 5/8" drywall in body and door (although it is 2 to 3 inches shorter @ 56" when most other similar safes are 58-60"). They state their door is 1/4" thick solid plate steel and that their locking bolts are "hardened steel" and not just chrome plated.
The product description says the 56 Series is only 450-lb, which is suprisingly light for a 10 gauge body and 2 sheets of 5/8" drywall in body and door (although it is 2 to 3 inches shorter @ 56" when most other similar safes are 58-60"). They state their door is 1/4" thick solid plate steel and that their locking bolts are "hardened steel" and not just chrome plated.
a1abdj
Member
Rhino safes are US made. Bighorn safes are the imported line that Rhino sells.
Published weights are a bit suspect as well. Some safe manufacturers overstate the weight to make it sound more secure. Others understate the weight in an attempt to cheat the shipping companies. Some tell you the actual weight.
Published weights are a bit suspect as well. Some safe manufacturers overstate the weight to make it sound more secure. Others understate the weight in an attempt to cheat the shipping companies. Some tell you the actual weight.
USAF-ORF
Member
My 2 Cents
While in the service I needed a broken TS Certified safe opened.
I learned from the locksmith that Goverment safes are rated buy the amount of time it takes to break into them.
This means all safes are vulnerable.
Suggestions ive employed.
1 Put a decient safe behind a false wall.
2 Leave a cheap safe in plain view (easily found) with expired Credit cards, Costume jewery and decoy replica weapon or sacrifical non fireing junker.
Once thieves believe they have struck paydirt they ussually want to make a quik escape.
Just my Two Cents
While in the service I needed a broken TS Certified safe opened.
I learned from the locksmith that Goverment safes are rated buy the amount of time it takes to break into them.
This means all safes are vulnerable.
Suggestions ive employed.
1 Put a decient safe behind a false wall.
2 Leave a cheap safe in plain view (easily found) with expired Credit cards, Costume jewery and decoy replica weapon or sacrifical non fireing junker.
Once thieves believe they have struck paydirt they ussually want to make a quik escape.
Just my Two Cents
I called Rhino Metals the other day and asked about the weight of the 56 series. The guy said he had a new 2011 spec sheet and in front of him & said it was listed as 560 lbs. That seems like a more reasonable # based on the product description.
I'm also looking at the Bighorn 6030 (which is Chinese made), but is slightly larger and has a 10 gauge steel body & door. This one weighs 700 lbs which has me a little worried about getting it downstairs.
Anybody know which is harder to get through...a 1/4 thick steel door plate (2.5" thick overall) or a 4" thick composite door with 10 gauge steel?
I'm also looking at the Bighorn 6030 (which is Chinese made), but is slightly larger and has a 10 gauge steel body & door. This one weighs 700 lbs which has me a little worried about getting it downstairs.
Anybody know which is harder to get through...a 1/4 thick steel door plate (2.5" thick overall) or a 4" thick composite door with 10 gauge steel?
ColtPythonElite
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So how big are these 560 and 700 lb safes? Either in measurements or number of guns.
a1abdj
Member
1/4" plate.
In the real safe world, composite usually means a light, hollow, steel door filled with cement. In the gun safe world, it means (10 gauge, 11 gauge, 12 gauge) steel wrapped around a sheet or two of gypsum board.
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