Please help me select my first safe (and by safe I mean RSC)!

[sabre66]

The 560-lb Rhino 56 safe is 16 cu-ft (external dimensions) and 10.5 cu-ft (internal dimensions) & is listed as a 20 gun safe. It is 50 min fire rated and has 8 hardened steel 1" diam bolts on 2-sides of the 1/4" thick steel plate door. It can be had in 4 paint colors/hardware combos.

The 700-lb Bighorn 6030 is 24 cu-ft (external dimensions) and 14.8 cu-ft (internal dimensions). The Bighorn is also 3" taller & is listed as a 26 gun safe. It is 70 min fire rated and has 10 chromed steel 1.25" diam bolts on 4-sides of the 4" composite (10 gauge) door. It comes in black paint/gold hardware only.

The Rhino is $1300 w/e-lock and delivery, and the Bighorn is $1000 w/e-lock and delivery.

 

[CodyWayne718]

KP Texan, I was interested in this RSC and came across this thread on google. I was just wondering if you have had any problems out of the electronic lock? That's the only thing that has got me not wantin to pull the trigger on this. There is a thread on here about the differences between RSCs and safes and it says somewhere that the electronic locks will go out. The only one TSC carrys that has the combination is the small one and I already got the OK on the bigger one from my better half Any input is much appreciated

 

[kophinos]

I am also thinking of picking up this safe from TSC soon.

 

[leadcounsel]

I understand everyone has a budget, but I'm also of the mindset that if you're going to make a purchase that will literally last a lifetime, then spend the money wisely and get something that will actually do the job it is intended to do. Over a lifetime the difference in price is literally pennies per day.

The safes you're looking at, as anyone with any knowledge will attest, are bascially worthless.

I am a happy Sturdy safe owner and recommend them. Real thick steel. Real fire resistance. Check them out.

 

[a1abdj]

Real thick steel. Real fire resistance.

Sounds like you're describing a Graffunder.

 

[CodyWayne718]

I understand everyone has a budget, but I'm also of the mindset that if you're going to make a purchase that will literally last a lifetime, then spend the money wisely and get something that will actually do the job it is intended to do. Over a lifetime the difference in price is literally pennies per day.

The safes you're looking at, as anyone with any knowledge will attest, are bascially worthless.

I am a happy Sturdy safe owner and recommend them. Real thick steel. Real fire resistance. Check them out.

Pennies a day over a life time or 1200 dollars the day you buy it. Jus sayin. I understand where your coming from, but when it comes to spending 700 or 2000 dollars in order to just keep a growing 2 year old safe I think the average joe would rather spend 700.

 

[LTROI]

Quote:
Real thick steel. Real fire resistance.
Sounds like you're describing a Graffunder.

Really no surprise the same adjectives are used to describe these gun safes companies. Although, when you're talking REAL thick steel you are certainly describing Graffunder and when you're talking REAL fire resistance in a gun safe there aren't any better than Sturdy.

 

[a1abdj]

and when you're talking REAL fire resistance in a gun safe there aren't any better than Sturdy.

Everybody knows my opinion on this. The only people in the safe business that agree are a few gun safe manufacturers. All of the hundreds of other safe manufacturers disagree, as do most professionals in the business.

Don't take my word for it. Ask around.

 

[LTROI]

Everybody knows my opinion on this. The only people in the safe business that agree are a few gun safe manufacturers. All of the hundreds of other safe manufacturers disagree, as do most professionals in the business.

Don't take my word for it. Ask around.

Here's some pictures from Graffunder themselves to show how effective their fire protection is in a modest fire. And, I'm not saying Graffunder doesn't make great gun safes because they certainly are at the top of the list IMO but I do think they can do better on fire protection.

Note in the photos that there is still paint on the gun safe to help indicate the actual intensity of the fire.

On the firearms, notice how the finish has been cooked off the row of Winchesters. I suspect that since they were being stored in a Graffunder that the owner feels they are valuable so it is likely that they are originals and worth a lot of money. Unfortunately, they are all "Shooters" now because they all have to be refinished and have little value to a collector. If it were my collection, I'd rather that they burned up completely so I could collect insurance and start my collection over again. As it is, it will be many hundreds of dollars restoring those firearms to a point were they will be worth half what they were before the fire.

For a comparison, look at a house fire that was a complete burn down from Sturdy's site. Compare the look of Sturdy's gun safe to gauge the intensity of the fire (note no paint on the safe and warped steel on the body). The contents of the Sturdy fire lined safe had no damage at all.

http://www.sturdysafe.com/fireliner.htm

If I had to chose which gun safe I'd like to have my collection of original M1 Carbines in through a house fire, I'd pick the Sturdy.

 

[a1abdj]

If I had to chose which gun safe I'd like to have my collection of original M1 Carbines in through a house fire, I'd pick the Sturdy.

If I were you, I'd choose a safe with a UL fire rating, and install some gun racks.

There is some damage visible on the photos of the Sturdy as well. You can make some educated guesses from those photos, but that's all they are is guesses. I have seen safes that have practically melted into puddles after fires. I have also seen very severe fires where the safes barely had the paint burned off.

I, manufacturers of real safes, and many others in the business can tell you one thing that's for sure. A UL rated safe is your best chance against a fire, and all of them use cast insulations. I can show you photos of plastic safes, using cast insulations, that survived worse fires than either of these safes were in.

One photo, or even one fire doesn't mean a thing. Large manufacturers have had thousands of their products put to the test in real world conditions. What works and what doesn't has been proven time and time again.

 

[LTROI]

Even a UL 350 rating may not be enough to prevent the damage caused to the guns in the Graffunder safe. As you know a1abdj, most of these gun safe companies are using gypsum board for fire protection; it as well as a concrete cast insulation may keep the temperature below 350F but if the net result is that you have guns that have the finish boiled off of them from the steam released, you still lost most of the value of your fire arm collection.

I can't remember which one of these websites I read it on but you just had this argument not too long ago with Sturdy Safe themselves. They ended up calling UL (Underwriters Laboratory) and spoke with the engineer in charge of testing fire rated safes (they provided the name and number as well to call). When they asked the engineer if he thought cast insulation was better than the ceramic fiber insulation used in Sturdy safes he said "no it is not". When asked if there are UL rated fire safes using Ceramic fiber as insulation he said there where but he couldn't provide the names of what manufacturer uses what only a list of all of the manufacturers that have UL fire ratings and you would have to call them yourself and hope they told you what they use. You had the discussion so you probably remember where it was from but I know that you are aware of UL's favorable opinion on the use of ceramic fiber insulation for fire protection.

 

[a1abdj]

Even a UL 350 rating may not be enough to prevent the damage caused to the guns in the Graffunder safe. As you know a1abdj, most of these gun safe companies are using gypsum board for fire protection; it as well as a concrete cast insulation may keep the temperature below 350F but if the net result is that you have guns that have the finish boiled off of them from the steam released, you still lost most of the value of your fire arm collection.

Steam damage is certainly a possibility, but the insulation is not the only way for that to happen. Gypsum, which allegedly works via the steam concept, tends to perform poorly in severe fires. This is why you dont' see gypsum board in UL rated safes either.

I can't remember which one of these websites I read it on but you just had this argument not too long ago with Sturdy Safe themselves. They ended up calling UL (Underwriters Laboratory) and spoke with the engineer in charge of testing fire rated safes (they provided the name and number as well to call). When they asked the engineer if he thought cast insulation was better than the ceramic fiber insulation used in Sturdy safes he said "no it is not". When asked if there are UL rated fire safes using Ceramic fiber as insulation he said there where but he couldn't provide the names of what manufacturer uses what only a list of all of the manufacturers that have UL fire ratings and you would have to call them yourself and hope they told you what they use. You had the discussion so you probably remember where it was from but I know that you are aware of UL's favorable opinion on the use of ceramic fiber insulation for fire protection.

I believe that story was embellished. I called and spoke with the the person whos contact information was posted. What he told me was that they could not confirm nor deny any material used in any safe. Nor could he have an opinion of what was better.

What I can tell you is that nobody has been able to show me one UL listed safe, out of the thousands available to choose from, that uses ceramic as its primary insulator. I'm pretty sure the reason for this is because one doesn't exist. The only UL listed safes that I can show you that use ceramics are data safes, and the ceramics are a secondary insulator on those units. If you point me towards any UL rated safe of your choosing, you will find that it is using a cast insulation.

The only safe manufacturers using ceramics as a primary insulator are a few gun safe manufacturers. That speaks volumes.

Modern day composite safes offer excellent fire protection, very limited moisture exposure, and very good burglary protection. The AMSEC RF6528 comes to mind as far as gun safes go. Bonus points to anybody who can tell me why a safe like this AMSEC doesn't have, or can not get a UL fire rating, even though it is has passed a very similar test at the factory.

 

[LTROI]

I believe that story was embellished. I called and spoke with the the person whos contact information was posted. What he told me was that they could not confirm nor deny any material used in any safe. Nor could he have an opinion of what was better.

It took a while but I found that thread again. I have the engineer's name and number from UL and I will give him a call Monday (although I'm sure he has better things to do.)

Bonus points to anybody who can tell me why a safe like this AMSEC doesn't have, or can not get a UL fire rating, even though it is has passed a very similar test at the factory.

UL subjects the safes to a "cool down" period where after the active testing phase is completed the furnace is shut off and allowed to slowly cool down while still cooking the safe. This scenario is likely to be more real because burning embers from the fire will continue to provide heat to the safe. Some of these gun safe manufacturers only expose the safes to heat during the furnace "On" testing period then open up the furnace door once the test has ended. With the mass of these safes and especially ones insulated with concrete, the safe will cook the interior for hours after the fire is finished and that's even without any new heat added. This is why the lightweight fire insulating barrier that Sturdy uses is so effective. As they said from the other thread I just read again: they have a list of references from customers, fireman etc who have witnessed how effective their fire insulated safes are in real fires so give them a call if you want to talk with customers that are thankful they had their guns protected by Sturdy during a fire.

 

[a1abdj]

It took a while but I found that thread again. I have the engineer's name and number from UL and I will give him a call Monday (although I'm sure he has better things to do.)

Not a bad idea at all. If you have some additional time, you should call every safe tech and manufacturer that you can and see what they have to say.

After I couldn't find any safe with a UL rating that uses ceramics as its primary insulation myself, I posed this question to the two largest groups of professional safe techs (that includes manufacturers) from all around the world. Not only could nobody point me towards one here in the US, but nobody could point me to any foreign safes with similar ratings that use it either.

I'm not saying one doesn't exist. I'm just saying that nobody knows where it's hiding if it does. If one was found, I still wouldn't think it was the best option, even though we would at least know that it was a proven material. Even though the material itself is UL listed, does not mean that that material used in a safe will meet UL standards for safe construction.

If ceramics worked as well as some people say they do, they would be used much more often. It is cheaper to produce safes with ceramic insulation, even though the material cost more than what is currently used.

UL subjects the safes to a "cool down" period where after the active testing phase is completed the furnace is shut off and allowed to slowly cool down while still cooking the safe. This scenario is likely to be more real because burning embers from the fire will continue to provide heat to the safe. Some of these gun safe manufacturers only expose the safes to heat during the furnace "On" testing period then open up the furnace door once the test has ended. With the mass of these safes and especially ones insulated with concrete, the safe will cook the interior for hours after the fire is finished and that's even without any new heat added.

Yet all of those "cement" filled UL fire rated safes past the test time and time again.

I was actually posing the question as to why burglary rated composite safes usually do not have UL ratings, even though in all likelihood they could pass the test.

This is why the lightweight fire insulating barrier that Sturdy uses is so effective

My kitchen oven uses a similar lightweighth insulating barrier. When it's on clean mode, the kitchen gets warm. I dont' think it's very effective.

As they said from the other thread I just read again: they have a list of references from customers, fireman etc who have witnessed how effective their fire insulated safes are in real fires so give them a call if you want to talk with customers that are thankful they had their guns protected by Sturdy during a fire.

Every manufacturer can provide you a similar list. I can give you the names and numbers of people who had shoeboxes full of items under their beds that survived fires. Each fire is different. Sometimes a little luck is involved. This is why UL test their safes under worst case scenario testing.

Heck, Liberty has photos of a safe that survived a wild fire. A wild fire that melted automobiles. Either they use some really special steel, or the safe just so happened to be located in a position that didn't get that hot. For every non UL listed safe that a manufacturer can show a survival photo of, I can show you several that didn't survive. I've never seen a Sturdy in a fire locally, because they sell so few safes (compared to other major manufacturers), and there are so few acutal fires, that the odds of one of their safes being in a real fire are very, very, low.

Of all of the manufacturers, Sentry probably has the most experience with home fires. The have millions and millions of safes inside of homes (and businesses) all over the world. They have plenty of photos on their website along with customer testimonials, although not nearly as many as you would expect having an exposure of millions of customers.

 

[Keizer]

This is why the lightweight fire insulating barrier that Sturdy uses is so effective.

Obviously not effective enough though. Here is a discussion about a Sturdy safe that went through a house fire and their fire protection failed miserably. But, Terry at least replaced their safe. Second post down.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/sturdy-gun-safes-co-fresno

The above house fire scenario ended up exactly like you were describing when you were talking about that "cool down" period. The Sturdy safe failed.

I do construction for a living. Trust me when I say that the modern materials used for building homes burns fast and hot. When we burn piles of scrap, it's gone in minutes. Unless the fire department is standing right there at the ready, your gun safe is most likely not going to survive a house fire.

What's really interesting is all the videos that Sturdy has on their web site about how hard it is to open their safes. Yet from the above linked discussion: "Terry, the owner of Sturdy, drove ~3 hours one morning to help me attempt to open it." And open he did. I wonder why he didn't video how easily he opened that safe after the house fire? Funny how he can get them open when he wants to.

 

[LTROI]

Thank you for posting the link keizer, I think it speaks volumes for the kind of company Sturdy Safe is and makes me even more convinced to buy from them in the future. In the story, where the Sturdy safe 'failed miserably' it was exposed to burning embers for 3 to 4 days. UL only rates safes to 4 hours I do believe so I doubt any fire safe would have survived that includes a Sturdy safe with double the fire insulation (an option). Good story though keizer:

In 2008, my house was completely burned away in the Summit Fire (forest fire in Santa Cruz county, CA). The fire department didn't even show up at the houses on my street because they were busy fighting the edges of the fire and trying to control its spread. This means that, for 3-4 days, the safe sat in the smoldering ruins of the house.

I wish I could say that what was in the safe survived, but I can't. I can say that Terry, the owner of Sturdy, drove ~3 hours one morning to help me attempt to open it. As good as it was, the safe couldn't stand up to 3+ days of sitting in embers. (Most house fires are actually put out by the fire department within a few hours, and that is why fire ratings talk about hours, not days).

Terry was truly sorry that the safe didn't protect what was in it (and again - It would have been a miracle for ANYTHING to have survived this), and promised a new safe when I was ready.

A year and a bit later, finally back in a house, I called Sturdy. As soon as I mentioned my name, Terry's wife said "I've had your name on a post-it on my wall here for the last year. Are you ready for the safe?".

Seriously. Just like that. I called a year later, and they shipped a brand new safe. Had it in the house a week later.

Even before calling for the replacement, I'd recommended Sturdy to all of my friends who might need a safe. It's really refreshing to experience customer service like that these days, and the product that Sturdy makes is world class. I highly recommend them.

 

[Keizer]

Good story though keizer:

No problem! I'm just trying to keep it real when it comes to fire protection claims on these RSC's. As well as how easily they can be opened if they need to be.

 

[a1abdj]

In the story, where the Sturdy safe 'failed miserably' it was exposed to burning embers for 3 to 4 days. UL only rates safes to 4 hours I do believe so I doubt any fire safe would have survived that includes a Sturdy safe with double the fire insulation (an option). Good story though keizer:

You think there's enough material in a house for it to stay hot for 4 days? Just because it was 4 days before they could get to the safe does not mean that it cooked for 4 days.

As I have already said, Liberty has testimonials from their customers where their gypsum lined safes survived similar wild fires. It's just luck.

If these gun safe manufacturers had it all figured out, then commercial safe sales would cease to exist, as everybody would be flocking towards the magical abilities of the gun safes. I mean why spend thousands of dollars for thousands of pounds when you could spend a grand on a 600 pound box that offered twice the space and the same protection?

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Yeah, I'd guess a house fire could be smoldering after 4 days...

 

[Keizer]

Yeah, I'd guess a house fire could be smoldering after 4 days...

A house is full of some of the driest building materials that you could get your hands on. If a house was allowed to burn to the ground, it is not going to be smoldering with hot coals all over the place four days later. Your gun safe is not going to be sitting in a bed of coals for days cooking like a pot of soup. Water lines are going to get melted through, water would be spraying everywhere until it was shut off, etc.

I would bet that Sturdy safe failed within the first hour, much like most of the RSC's would do.

 

[a1abdj]

Yeah, I'd guess a house fire could be smoldering after 4 days...

I can tell you from experience that it doesn't happen. I have been to complete burn downs to locate and open the safe the day following the fire.

There is not enough material in a house to burn for four days, and there's usually not enough material to cause any major pile of burning embers. The photo from the Graffunder site shown above is pretty typical of a complete burn down of a house. The debris is usually less than a foot deep.

 

[bruzer]

Hopefully I'll never have to see my safe proven but it is required to keep the temp below 150 degrees during a fire. When I read that fire rated gun safes and RSC's can get up to 350 degrees or more if the fire lasts too long, wow that seems pretty HOT. Although it is not all fancy like the gun safes are.
Mike

 

[LTROI]

Quote:
Yeah, I'd guess a house fire could be smoldering after 4 days...

I can tell you from experience that it doesn't happen. I have been to complete burn downs to locate and open the safe the day following the fire.

There is not enough material in a house to burn for four days, and there's usually not enough material to cause any major pile of burning embers. The photo from the Graffunder site shown above is pretty typical of a complete burn down of a house. The debris is usually less than a foot deep.

Well the Twin Towers where still smoldering weeks after they collapsed so size, mass, constructing materials as well as other factors effect how long it will take to cool down. A multilevel dwelling with a cellar that collapses in on itself will hold it's heat for days as I've seen first hand.

In the complete burn down of the home from Sturdy safe's website, the home appeared to be one level on a pad and burned continuously for 90 minutes. The contents had no damage at all and Sturdy says the owner of the safe is more than happy to attest to that on their behalf. So somewhere between a 3 to 4 day smoldering home and a 90 minute burn down that's quenched by fire hoses, the Sturdy Safe's standard fire insulation will protect the contents.

 

[LTROI]

Hopefully I'll never have to see my safe proven but it is required to keep the temp below 150 degrees during a fire. When I read that fire rated gun safes and RSC's can get up to 350 degrees or more if the fire lasts too long, wow that seems pretty HOT. Although it is not all fancy like the gun safes are.
Mike

Very nice data safe bruzer, you are definitely well covered. That also has to keep the humidity level below 85% right so it has dry insulation just like Sturdy Safe uses (do you know what that inner liner is constructed of btw?)

 

[a1abdj]

Well the Twin Towers where still smoldering weeks after they collapsed so size, mass, constructing materials as well as other factors effect how long it will take to cool down.

Of course it does. Do you know how many safes survived that collapse? Do you know how many safes are designed to survive a collapse like that?

I don't think anybody here is storing their firearms in a safe with the expectation that it will survive a high rise collapse.

A multilevel dwelling with a cellar that collapses in on itself will hold it's heat for days as I've seen first hand.

So which gun safe is designed to survive this type of event?

There is a reason that most residential safes are designed with a 1 hour fire rating, and most commercial safes are designed with a 2 hour fire rating.

In the complete burn down of the home from Sturdy safe's website, the home appeared to be one level on a pad and burned continuously for 90 minutes.

That's closer to a typical home fire. Of course temperatures vary wildly inside of a fire, and without instruments inside, it's impossible to say how brutal the actual exposure was.

The contents had no damage at all and Sturdy says the owner of the safe is more than happy to attest to that on their behalf.

My opinion is that there was in fact damage to the contents of the safe. I can see it in the photo, and I based that on viewing the contents of several safes that I have opened after fires.

This in itself is not a bad thing. There's certainly nothing destroyed inside the safe, but some amount of damage is quite normal. Even UL rated safes can have damaged contents. The safes are actually designed to allow some damage.

Sturdy Safe's standard fire insulation will protect the contents.

So when somebody's safe fails to perform as you describe, are you going to pay to replace the contents?

What professional background do you have that allows you to make such a statement?

Very nice data safe bruzer, you are definitely well covered. That also has to keep the humidity level below 85% right so it has dry insulation just like Sturdy Safe uses (do you know what that inner liner is constructed of btw?)

I usually don't toot my own horn, but there's a reason bruzer decided on the purchase of that safe

The inner liner, the one that reduces the external exposure of 350 degrees to an internal temperature of 150 degrees, is in fact ceramic. Insulating against 200 degrees is pretty light duty. Its main purpose is to control humidity.

What do some of the big manufacturers have to say?

Schwab is now part of Sentry, which according to wikipedia is the largest manufacturer of fire rated safes and cabinets in the world. Schwab has been in the fire resistant safe building business since 1872.

Schwab’s Insulite insulation is the most efficient on the market today. Thicker insulation doesn’t always mean better insulation. Insulite allows all Schwab safes to offer features like thinner walls and lighter weight without compromising fire protection. This enables the Schwab design to maintain a look that is aesthetically pleasing without sacrificing its protective ability.

All fire resistant insulation requires water in order to prevent the spread of fire. Insulite, Schwab’s trademarked airdried insulating composite’s water is chemically bound. This means our insulation contains no free water. The competitor’s oven dried insulation has a small amount of free water, which can evaporate over time, thus losing its protective ability. Insulite contains no asbestos and NEVER dries out or loses its protective ability over time, so breathe easy—you, your vital records, and your environment are protected with a Schwab fire resistant media safe.

Only Schwab’s premium Insulite insulating composite material, in conjunction with superior manufacturing processes provides unparalleled protection against fire. Insulite, which is poured into the pre-constructed frame enables the Schwab design to maintainthe same protection with less weight and size than competing brands.