"Pointing vs. Aiming" a Shotgun - Difference in Training?

[marklbucla]

Recent threads have led to my question of whether one "points" or "aims" a shotgun is dependent upon one's training- whether taught by hunters/clay shooters vs. going to a "tactical" school, like Gunsite.

I took my 2 day course from a Gunsite instructor and there were two or three major distinctions he made between shooting a shotgun their way vs. the way a hunter/clay shooter would do it.

First, it was said that one does not fit the shotgun by "chicken winging" it, like forming a pocket by raising your elbow up. Instead, you keep it down and tight to the body.

Secondly, we load our shotgun with our support hand while holding it up and on target with the dominant.

I know I was taught to use the bead sight in the context of shooting slugs, but I'm fairly certain that they said nothing of the sort to "point" the shotgun as discussed here on the board by the shotgun gurus. There was a big discussion on sighting systems, but again, I don't remember any mention of "pointing".

Did I miss something big or is this just a difference in background and approaches?

 

[RNB65]

In wing and clay shooting, shotguns are neither pointed nor aimed. They are swung. Swung left, swung right, swung up and swung down. It's all about motion. Once you see the target you begin moving the gun and you don't stop until well after you've fired. You don't look at the bead sight or the barrel, you only look at the target and swing the gun. Talent and experience will tell your finger when to pull the trigger.

In tactical shooting at fixed or slow moving targets, I aim just like it's a rifle. Some folks might use the word point, but to me it's aiming down the top of the barrel just as if it were a rifle with no iron sights. I don't pay any attention to the bead sight, just concentrate on the target and sight down the long flat surface of the barrel.

All forms of shotgun shooting tend to be more instinctual rather than technical. Feel over mechanics. That's one of the key differences between shotgun shooting and rifle shooting.
-

 

[whistler]

you need to be able to do both point and or aim there is a time and place for both.

 

[Snarlingiron]

Interesting. A friend of mine and I had this same discussion a couple of days ago. First I will say, I know very few people that are better marksmen, be it with a pistol, rifle or shotgun. He says he can't see the distinction. When we shoot clays, he clearly "aims". His point is, let's say I were shooting at a clay target with a single projectile. Say for example he was using his AR. You wouldn't be pointing it.

Me, I don't know. I do know that I have always been unable to shoot with both eyes open. I am trying to learn to shoot with both eyes open in hopes of improving my clay scores. I picked up one of the Easy Hit sights that doesn't allow the other eye see the dot. I am hoping at the very least it will be a good training aid. I tried it out in the back yard today, and it seems to work. I practiced "pointing" at birds and a couple of squirrels. I would track them with both eyes open, and then close my left eye which is the way I have been shooting, and lo and behold, I would be pointing at the target.

I too have taken a defensive shotgun course, and the style of shooting we were taught has precious little to do with shooting clays, or with wing shooting.

I am beginning to think it is "Shotgun Zen". Feel the shotgun. Point the shotgun. Be the shotgun weedhopper.

I will be giving it a try tomorrow.

 

[Shell Shucker]

A skilled clay shooter can "point" and blow your head off (under 25 yards) faster than you can say AIM!

 

[Robert Hairless]

Mark, with reference to that other thread and this one, I'm not a hunter nor really a clay shooter. I've never hunted in my life and have no ambition to do so. I do shoot trap and I'm very popular at my club for the amusement I provide the audience who watches my creative ways to miss flying saucers. I am a hoot. I don't pretend to be a guru either: damned turban keeps slipping over my eyes and whenever I take the lotus position I cramp solidly into place and have to be unwound by laughing friends.

That said, in the other thread we--mostly I, I suppose--were focused on your specific question about sights and sighting, and all the rest grew out of it. There wasn't another way to approach that question.

I heartily agree with your instructor that there are differences between defensive shotgun handling, hunting, and trap shooting.

In trap the target is moving at 45 mph (if I remember rightly) and you're trying to hit where it will be when the shot arrives and not where it is when the shot is launched, the direction of both the shot and the clay pigeon is fairly well predictable by everyone in the world but me, and you stand still while you shoot and the clay pigeon moves away from you.

In hunting, if I have the right idea, you're at some unpredictable range of distances from the quarry and all the rest depends on the kind of quarry and its environment. If I've got a handle on it, if you flush a pheasant while you're deer hunting you don't switch suddenly to pheasant hunting and try to bag the bird with your slug. Again, though, you're standing still when you shoot.

In neither of those two sports do their rules permit your quarry--the clay pigeon, the deer, or the pheasant--to have a gun or knife and try to kill you. Another common factor to them is that you're the big guy: you initiate the conflict, control it to some extent, and can quit whenever you like. And, as I said, you're standing still while your quarry moves.

None of that is true in self defense. Here you start off as a prime candidate for becoming dog meat and you're behind the curve when action begins. Trust me on this at least: you are either just about to become dead or on the fast track to spending quality time with Mungo, your soon-to-be dear friend. In the two sports you want to be there. In self defense you want to be somewhere else--anywhere else.

So you are plunged into chaos, your heart is beating, you're sweating like crazy, your hands are shaking, your eyes go nuts, the blood is pounding in your ears, you don't hear very well, time goes into slow motion, and you either move while you're shooting or you have a good chance of becoming dead. You're not trying to whack Bambi or shatter clay pigeons.

From here to there all you can do is point and shoot and load and move, and you can't make mistakes or someone can get killed who you don't want to get killed, and your goal is to stop some one, two, or more people from putting you or someone you love in the grave. This is not fun.

You have to do all the mechanical stuff--moving, shooting, and loading, for example--mechanically without thinking about the mechanics. With a shotgun, not a handgun or rifle, you're looking at the target. Not the sights, the shells, the magazine tube, the trigger, the ejection port, your feet, your hands, or your Aunt Hattie. This is scarey stuff.

If possible you're trying to change the dynamics of the situation so that you inch ahead as the leader instead of the follower, so you become unpredictable to them and they maybe make a mistake and you can stop them. They think you're weak; you suddenly turn into Superman. That gives you a slight edge for a moment and you have a brief window to benefit from it. They see you moving that way but suddenly you move this way, which gives you another slight edge from which you can benefit for a moment. Or they see you up and then suddenly you're down, or they see you and then suddenly they don't see you for a moment. Lord, please get me the hell out of here and I'll lead a saintly life from now on!

So who can look at his sights and take careful aim under those circumstances?

It's really very useful to have had the experience of living in a bad neighborhood during childhood. There's much to be learned from what we used to call The School of Hard Knocks, especially if one was the recipient of those hard knocks and a lot of them too. All becomes clear at an early age about the differences between theory and reality, and in older ages it helps one immediately distinguish instructors who are scholars of kickery and those who actually got kicked. There is much to learn from both kinds but this course of study is not purely academic.

From here to there the shotgun points itself. From there on to way out there you aim it. All you are is its platform.

I don't see much point in discussing who can blow anyone's head off better. In the kinds of situations I've described the issues are different and so are the goals.

The above are only my own thoughts. All I want to do anyway is stay alive as long as I can because I'm having too much fun to stop just yet. I spent a lovely afternoon with a Remington Police Magnum, twenty-five boxes of slugs, and some jugs tucked into various crannies of a berm twenty-five yards away. I ran and shot and made the jugs dance until they didn't anymore, so you might say I was romancing the Remington. I'm in love and my wife approves. Who has life better than that?

 

[DWARREN123]

Aim for slugs, point for everything else. The way I was trained.

 

[plateshooter]

Great post Robert. Excellent job of discerning the difference between hunting, target shooting and survival. You create a great mental picture with your words.

 

[ArmedBear]

First, it was said that one does not fit the shotgun by "chicken winging" it, like forming a pocket by raising your elbow up. Instead, you keep it down and tight to the body.

Anyone who DOES fit a shotgun like this knows nothing about hunting or clays shooting, or anything else, lacks critical thinking skills, and should be avoided. It's quite obvious that different people have different upper arm and forearm lengths, WRT overall arm lenth, overall body size, chest thickness, etc. If someone doesn't understand this, he has no business fitting ANYTHING to ANYONE, for ANY kind of shooting.

On to pointing...

Pointing involves a couple of things that are fundamentally different from aiming:

1. Focus on the target, with both eyes. Don't focus on the front sight or bead; you probably only have a minimal awareness of it.
2. Hold the shotgun, which has to fit you, in one place WRT your body, and move your whole body to point at the target.

This works for non-moving targets just fine. No reason it wouldn't.

It doesn't work so well if you've just fallen backwards and have to shoot from a highly compromised position (also doesn't work so well with an M4-style stock).

But... The issue that arises here is that many defensive shotgun types here don't seem to have any knowledge of what "pointing" means, so when they argue against it, they're arguing against some imaginary technique, not real "pointing."

Also, good rifle shooters use a cheek weld same as shotgunners, and those shooting at moving targets or multiple targets with any degree of success are moving their bodies just like bird hunters do. Defensive carbine shooting, by necessity, has a lot in common with this kind of shotgun handling.

So, the main difference between good rifle aiming (practiced by too few people), and pointing a shotgun, is found in how the shooter's eyes are used. And as far as that goes, a defensive situation is much like bird hunting: you want to be as aware as possible of the target and your surroundings, not your firearm. Both-eyes-open, focused on the target, is a better way to do this than one-eye-open, focused on the front sight, isn't it?

Consider this: how easy is it to shoot a sniper from behind, while he's aiming his rifle? True "aiming" involves tunnel vision, which will help you hit a target accurately, but won't protect you from other threats (or help you see those 3 doves coming over your head while you're trying to hit one with a too-long shot out way in front of you).

Note also that a "scout scope" and a red dot, especially an open red dot or forward-mounted red dot, are all designed to facilitate your ability to keep your peripheral vision.

Just some things to think about.

 

[marklbucla]

^

I think the reason for mounting and tucking in the elbow is to be more maneuverable. With an elbow out and moving around corners, you're giving up your position. Same with your head if you roll around the corner while staying behind it.

Since there wasn't a direct answer to the original question, I'm gathering that the consensus is that either I was taught wrong or I missed something very big in class. Correct?

 

[ArmedBear]

No, you heard right. I misunderstood: there's another thing going on in shotgunning. Some people think there's a way to fit a shotgun with your elbow; it sounds like that's not what you were talking about. Don't worry about it; if you haven't had someone try to do this with you, you are lucky. Sorry for the confusion and unintended misinformation.

WRT giving away your position, that's certainly valid. It is also more difficult to point a gun with your elbow down. It's possible, but harder. That goes for a rifle, too. An AR is not a natural "pointer", but with practice, you can do it. You just rely on your forearm and your cheek weld more when you don't have your trigger hand to help out. I know an Olympic shotgunner. She has hit clays with only one hand on the shotgun; that's what "chicken winging" it does for you: it keeps the gun stable more easily.

If you have a gun that doesn't hold position well vs. your body, you probably have no choice but to aim. It doesn't work as well, but if it keeps you safer, it's probably better. OTOH you can try pointing with your elbow tucked, and see. Maybe you can get the best of both worlds, with practice.

That's also why they make holographic sights. They put a virtual reticle out at infinite focus, so your eyes can focus out at the target, but you can still aim the gun rather than pointing it.

 

[Bix]

With a shotgun, not a handgun or rifle, you're looking at the target. Not the sights . . .

Robert,

I'm wondering why you see the shotgun as different from the handgun or rifle in this regard.

In my limited experience in shotgun classes and practical shooting matches, I find myself trying to get lead into targets the same way across all three platforms: front sight, trigger press.

This may have something to do with my hardware choices. The buck loads I shoot act, essentially, as a single projectile at typical defensive ranges. So, I tend to think of my 870 as a .73 caliber carbine. I shoot it like a carbine: find that front sight and mind the trigger.

Because the gun is shooting a single projectile, I'm not really shooting at "the target", but at a specific point on the target (at least when I'm doing what I should be doing). Similarly, in a defensive situation, I'm not really trying to hit 'the VCA', but, rather, specific anatomical structures within the VCA. Obviously, the dynamics of a lethal force encounter may make this little more than good intentions, but it seems to me that we should strive to be as precise as possible in our application of lethal force - for a number of reasons.

I thought about this alot after providing an 'instructional opportunity' at an Awerbuck class. During some drill where I was attempting to engage 8" steel at about 7 yards while moving, loading, shooting, and filtering the wildman shouting in my ear; I managed to miss just about every target on my first run. Under that bit of artificial stress and movement/manipulation, I was not getting the perfect gun mount I was used to under less chaotic circumstances -- and my tiny patterns were whizzing right by the plates.

When I got my head together and worked on finding the front sight before hitting the trigger on the second run, the steel started to ring. Thinking about this, it occurred to me that I might need something better than kinesthetic reference during the chaos of an actual lethal force encounter. A grooved gun mount alone might not get the job done if I'm forced to fight from my back, for example, or if I need to shoot from the weak side shoulder. Under those circumstances, I'm pretty sure I would not be able to put that wad-sized load where it needed to go without some visual imput from the gun.

Perhaps I just need more quality time with the 870

 

[Landlocked Pirate]

First, it was said that one does not fit the shotgun by "chicken winging" it, like forming a pocket by raising your elbow up. Instead, you keep it down and tight to the body.

The pictures on this website http://www.gunsandhunting.com/ShotgunTactics.html show the elbow tucked in tight against the body when shooting defensively, which goes against everything I've ever heard about managing heavy recoil such as when shooting buckshot or slugs. I would love to hear what some of the resident experts think about this.

 

[Zak Smith]

There are a lot of close-range stationary clays and steel targets missed by 3-Gun shooters who think they are pointing at the targets instead of actually aiming at them.

 

[JohnBT]

I know for a fact I don't aim some of my shotguns. They don't have beads on them (or sights, or scopes, etc.)

There are quite a few wingshooters who don't have beads on the their shotguns. That's because the important thing is to maintain a hard focus on the target and let muscle memory calculate the lead and point the shotgun.

With pistols and rifles - and shotguns aimed like rifles - the focus is on the front sight, front sight, front sight.

John

P.S. - Here's a link to Bob Brister on teaching a total novice wingshooting in a week or two with a sightless bb gun and then a shotgun. Scroll up a page for the beginning. From 'Shotgunning: The Art and the Science'

http://books.google.com/books?id=sU...7bYeiRI&sig=mszBbFFXKPiU5DYwohErwDs-Q2I&hl=en

 

[sm]

Humm...
I do my thing and get yelled at by everyone. *grin*

I am big on gun fit to shooter, correct basic fundamentals, quality practice and the rest of my Rebel Southern Boy ways.
I was mentored by some real interesting folks...

One gets to be one with the gun and the human computer, will do what is needed for task.
Hard to explain, just comes from a lot of trigger time.

I say shotguns are pointed not aimed, I refer to myself as a pass shooter, and I shoot from low gun ( gun not pre-mounted). I want a shotgun bascially stock, with a full stock, no pistol grip forends, no optics, no hi-vis, no ghost rings.

Yes, there are specific tasks one does aim...all that said...

In a nanosecond I might aim, snap shoot, sustained, pass through - whatever it takes to fell the target.
This is me, and folks like me. If we do not think, instead shoot ...
If we do not think and try to override what the human computer is doing, we will fell what looking at

I have thousands of thousands of rounds with shotguns and no beads.
Same for a front bead only and same for a front bead with mid bead.

I started really young on all this, and we did not have what-all is out there today.
We shot lessons like 3 gun, before 3 gun come to be.

Zak is wiser than I will ever be.
Yes, one can miss with a shotgun at 3 yds with a load of #6, buckshot or slugs.

Now I have been asked to watch 3 gunners and see why they miss.
I see guns that do not fit, or impede movement.
Folks do not move the body , foot position, stance that is restrictive, loads and guns do not work well together...

Aiming is a reason, I also see these folks do the same thing a person new to shooting a Red Dot do...they moved off the target before tripping trigger.

They were dead on that target with a shotgun, with a load of #6 at 7 yds, and missed because they thought about the next target, time, scores and moved off the target before they shot.

One bird at a time, I do not care if you point, aim, or use whatever method.

There is much truth in : one cannot shoot what they cannot see, one cannot shoot fast enough to win, and one needs to make quick effective hits.

Zak know his stuff, so I concede to him.

I betcha if Zak stood behind a shooter and read them and the shot, many misses are due to some reasons I have seen.

I read the student, someone with video camera skills taped exactly what I was seeing.

 

[Striker]

What seems to be overlooked is that we are discussing using the same basic tool in two entirely different applications.

As I've said in previous posts, I'm all about shooting moving clays by putting the shot pattern where they are going to be, rather then where they are. (B class Trapper and A class Skeeter) I focus on the bird and swing the gun. But when shooting slugs, the shotgun is a de-facto rifle that requires aiming. I don't point a slug loaded shotgun, except at contact distances.

Again, same basic tool, but entirely different methods of utilization.

 

[Robert Hairless]

ArmedBear:

So, the main difference between good rifle aiming (practiced by too few people), and pointing a shotgun, is found in how the shooter's eyes are used.

Damn, that's good. All the rest of it was too but for me that's the goodest of the good.

Bix:

I'm not a guru and my own attitude is that what works is what's "right." Put in perhaps more memorable terms, the results validate the method. If you can stave off a band of evildoers by operating the gun with your toe, who should say you didn't do it right.

At up to about 25 yards my shotguns pattern the #00 buck I use exactly the way you describe: one big hole, although somewhere close to 25 yards it's a ragged big hole. So we're starting from the same place.

Starting from that place, please understand that I'm not being a smart aleck when my response to your "I'm wondering why you see the shotgun as different from the handgun or rifle" in regard to sighting is that I see them differently because they are different.

The handgun and rifle are meant to be used as precision instruments and they're designed that way. The self-defense shotgun isn't a precision instrument and isn't designed to be used that way. We can go through a short list of reasons and clues but perhaps the most obvious is that its bore is smooth, not rifled. A 75-yard-shot is relatively long range for a shotgun but for a rifle it's relatively short range. (Although it would be interesting to talk more about the role of those three kinds of firearms, let's not do that here because it will derail the thread.)

I wasn't there watching you at Louis' class but I know why you were missing: you weren't doing it right. With all due humility, you still aren't but you're getting closer.

It would be astonishing if anyone agreed with me but for me there are three key location points on a shotgun: one is the muzzle end of the barrel and the other two are the lines formed by each side of the barrel. If any thinking were involved in pointing the shotgun--there isn't, but this might be the best way to approach what's happening--those three points substitute for the front and rear sights of a handgun and rifle. The lines formed by the barrel sides are your primary indication of windage, and the end of the barrel is the primary indication of elevation. At close ranges, when you see the end of the barrel and the two lines all pointing at where you want the load to arrive, you pull the trigger and the load goes where it should.

It's all impressionistic and crude but it works every time. In fact there's no need for a rear sight, front sight, or bead on a shotgun at close range. The only use of a bead on the front of the barrel is to show you where the barrel ends. You could hang a red flag off it and get the same benefit. In practice, of course, you get to know where the barrel stops. You feel it stops there. And you don't really see the lines formed by the sides of the barrel. You feel that they're there. When all three are on target the load will go there--more or less. The "more or less" is why Dave McCracken, Lee Lapin, sm, and everyone else here exert great pressure on shotgun owners to pattern their shotguns carefully. These are not precision instruments.

The reason why you say "Under that bit of artificial stress and movement/manipulation, I was not getting the perfect gun mount I was used to under less chaotic circumstances -- and my tiny patterns were whizzing right by the plates" is because you were taking the wrong path. You caught that, but you didn't catch why it was the wrong path. Reread what you just said: you were disappointed to not get the perfect gun mount you are used to getting under less chaotic circumstances. You're thinking precision when you should be working on "instinct," "habit," or whatever you prefer to call it. There's the difference between performing brain surgery and cutting a slice of nice, juicy steak you shove into your mouth when you're famished. Different instruments, different approaches, different everything that matters. You can slice the steak with a scalpel but it takes far too much time for a hungry man, and you might be able to perform brain surgery with a steak knife but not on me please.

So it's painful to say that you're going down another wrong path when you aim that shotgun the way you aim a rifle or handgun; but since you're not going to invite me to the prom anyway, I don't mind saying it and you don't have to agree.

Your method will work but it's slower than necessary, most inefficient, and is likely to get you in one hell of a lot of trouble in a real defensive situation. If a few guys are coming after your gentles, you will be singing soprano by the time you get ready to stop one of them.

It takes thinking to aim but you're in an arena that does not reward intellectual endeavor. This arena rewards those who work by "instinct," which is essentially produced by lots of practice in responding properly to impressions. If it were possible to dissect the brains of the good defensive shotgunners here--and of Louis Awerbuck too--I'd bet that they're storehouses filled with enormous numbers of little pictures tagged with the proper "instinctive" responses to them. When you see something that looks like this when you're holding that shotgun you pull the trigger.

That's why Louis stressed you out in class. It's so that you respond "instinctively" to the situation as it develops. Again, this situation is one you don't initiate and therefore don't control--at least not in the beginning--so you're responding to multiple factors in infinite combinations and you need to respond fast or you're dead. In every class I've taken with Louis there's at least one guy who freezes because Louis has driven him nuts. In larger classes there is more than one. If you're thinking about aiming or anything else mechanical you will freeze when the pressure gets strong enough. And Louis isn't even shooting at you.

 

[Zak Smith]

I think there is some value in differentiating between "aiming" and "aiming using the sights". If we describe aiming as a general method to put the bullet and/or shot pattern where we want it to go, there are many aiming methods. Using the sights is one aiming method. "Pointing" a long-gun is one aiming method.

In practical pistol shooting, I think it's safe to say that most agree there is a continuum of aiming methods, from point and/or index shooting, to various target / gun / sight focus methods, to a very precise front sight focus used for the most precise shots.

The shotgun is no different. While there are some aiming methods that are uniquely applicable to skeet shooting (whose targets have much higher angular velocity relative to the shooter than trap or what we see in 3gun), there is still some aiming method used.

With that out of the way, one point I'd like to make is that there is a downside to "point" or "index" shooting with any type of gun, and this ties into what sm said,

I see guns that do not fit, or impede movement. Folks do not move the body , foot position, stance that is restrictive, loads and guns do not work well together...

That downside is that when the stance or grip or index or body position breaks down, or isn't just right, or maybe you have to shoot on the move, then the physical relationships between your body (kinesthetic awareness), the gun, and the target change, and this affects where the gun is actually "aimed" vs. where you've been trained to believe it is aimed.

This is the reason why the vast majority of tactical pistol training hammers on "front sight press"-- because as long as the sights are aligned on the target when you press the trigger on a pistol, the bullet will impact the target-- everything else can go "wrong" or be discombubulated.

Anyway, this is kind of off topic of shotguns, but I think some expanded terminology would help the debate. FWIW, I shoot trap with a 18.5" M1S90 using #7.5's and a full choke, and do OK. I pretend it's a rifle and aim the right amount in front of the clay with the ghost-ring sights.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Zak:

I think there is some value in differentiating between "aiming" and "aiming using the sights". If we describe aiming as a general method to put the bullet and/or shot pattern where we want it to go, there are many aiming methods. Using the sights is one aiming method. "Pointing" a long-gun is one aiming method. Using its sights is an aiming method.

Good distinction and most useful. When I was talking about the barrel's locator points I was talking about aiming but not of the kind that's being discussed here. Jim Cirrillo said much better what I've been trying to describe. It's crude but effective and appropriate.

 

[sm]

Zak, Robert,

I appreciate your posts.
I appreciate this thread!

Words like "pointing" and "aiming" suffer from context, add, Internet is not the easiest medium to communicate with. Not to mention I cannot express myself worth a flip with typed words.

Zak, Robert, and myself and others are on the same page on all this.

Zak wrote:
That downside is that when the stance or grip or index or body position breaks down, or isn't just right, or maybe you have to shoot on the move, then the physical relationships between your body (kinesthetic awareness), the gun, and the target change, and this affects where the gun is actually "aimed" vs. where you've been trained to believe it is aimed.

I agree.
My deal about harping about gun fit, correct basics, and sticking with one gun and getting to know it like a body is simple:

In a serious situation one may lose lighting, glasses, the beads, any sight system.
One may end up shot, or on the ground.

Repetition becomes habit - habit becomes faith.

This is where one really benefits from knowing that gun like a body part, it has to be an extension of them, all those rounds downrange, running the gun without looking, slapping triggers...
One might have to "aim" down the side of the receiver/barrel/forearm to get a shot off.
One might have to "point" with a wobbly one hand and get that shot off.

One might have shoot back and over head to get some friggin' breathing room to roll to cover...all sorts of "it ain't looking good, but staying in the fight" shotgun use.

I am not speaking of computer generated graphic cool movie moves, I am speaking of doing whatever it takes to survive, even if it means doing something "wrong" according to instruction, training, gun games and disciplines.

Do something even if wrong, just keep fighting, moving, doing something!

Now my role has been to assist, and I have my preferred folks to assist such as Ladies, kids, elderly and physically limited. I have my reasons.

I suggest they get more lessons, training in whatever they want to go on to do.
Oh I can assist and have. For instance I used to assist with PGO issued shotguns for Armored Guards and others.
I...hate these PGOs still some folks have to qual with these.

I am not that smart all I know are my experiences and observations, this is all I can pass forward.
I cannot "teach the whole pie" - I know that, always have.

Skeet my game, I have shot trap, still I have shot a lot of skeet.
I also have trigger time in Live Pigeons, Colombaire, 5 stand, and sporting clays.
Add my private lessons in other shotgun uses, and other "set ups" [games] I have experience in.

Columbaire will beat a shotgunner. Yes he will , he is trained and practiced in beating a shotgunner. He will throw that live pigeon and beat a shotgunner, and one has to not only fell that pigeon you must fell it within a circle.

One does not always have the best positioning, oh the idea of getting weak foot "here" and "cracking a knee" and all that is great...just the Columbaire has watched you, and his job is to trip you up and rattle your brain.

I have had a pigeon tossed, straight/flat, and my weak foot in back, no knee cracked and I was leaning forward and literally falling down when I slapped trigger.
It was not pretty, not all all and that dirt was hard and dusty! I felled that pigeon just about 2 ft shy of the circle. Lady Luck showed up, as I sure did everything wrong that I could...

Gun fit me, It was an extension of me and Lady Luck did the rest.


So I get folks up to speed at the bottom rung, and then suggest they go see whomever they need to see to do with a shotgun they want to do.

Zak, is one I would appreciate learning from. Correia is another, Robert, Dave Mc, Lee Lapin and his wife...everyone can teach me and I would like that.

These folks over the years, I just want to get them to a point, where they are ready for Zak, Correia, Robert, Dave , Lee, Will Fennell, Awerbuck, Cain...

These folks know about pattern boards, not to shoot themselves or others, which end is the muzzle end, and most important, willingness to learn and ask questions.

Art & Science like Brister said...

Just sometimes the words mess up folks. Just be open minded, receptive and listen...not hear...listen.

 

[throdgrain]

Think of it like this.

Rifle shooting is a science.


Shotgun shooting is an Art.

 

[Snarlingiron]

Man do I have a lot to think about. Here's my deal. At the tender young age of 12 years, I was given my first firearm, a Winchester model 42 pump in .410. Man I loved that gun. Wish I still had it. Anyway, no one ever taught me to shoot. My dad took me out to the IPC land outside of Woodville, Tx, and we shot it at an enormous pile of sawdust from an old sawmill. Kind of neat, because you could see the pattern in the sawdust. We went dove hunting a couple of times and from there I was on my own. Years passed, and I have built and shot a lot of rifles. I have worked on and shot a lot of handguns. I have shot shotguns off and on, usually on the annual dove or quail hunt.

Then a friend of mine at work is all into tactical training (former weapons instructor in the Navy), and he had taken several courses. I decided to take a pistol course from Tom Givens. Great! I learned a lot. I was so stupid I really didn't even realize how much I didn't know. Then I took a defensive shotgun course. Again, I learned a great deal. The shotgun is now my HD weapon of choice. I have since taken another pistol course. Time and money well spent.

After all this, I now become interested in shotgunning, skeet, sporting clays, etc. I find I am very short on my shotgunning skills, and this thread has helped me a great deal (well at least in terms of thought process, and mental attitude). I haven't had the opportunity to get to the range and try some of my new found knowledge out yet. That will be this weekend.

So, at the somewhat advanced age of 57, I am trying to learn to keep both eyes open. I am for the first time understanding the concepts of swing through, sustained lead and pull away. I am understanding the importance of gun fit. I am buying a BB gun. I received my copy of Brister's "Shotugnning, the Art and the Sceince" today, and I am reading it.

I don't delude myself into thinking that I will be the best shotgunner ever, but I am having a heck of a good time trying to learn and get better.

So, thanks for the civil discourse on the subject of "Aiming vs. Pointing". It has given me a lot to think about and a lot to try.

 

[Zak Smith]

I just remembered-- I have hit clays thrown from a portable trap with an AR-15, and I used the sights (Aimpoint in this case). (note: there was sufficient backstop for this to be safe.)

-z

 

[ArmedBear]

That downside is that when the stance or grip or index or body position breaks down, or isn't just right, or maybe you have to shoot on the move, then the physical relationships between your body (kinesthetic awareness), the gun, and the target change, and this affects where the gun is actually "aimed" vs. where you've been trained to believe it is aimed.

It this were a showstopper, it would mean that mountain quail hunters in steep, rocky terrain, grouse hunters in the woods, and pheasant hunters stumbling in hardpack furrowed fields, all go home empty handed. And that is not the case.

IMO it's really easy to conflate shooter incompetence with the shortcomings of a certain technique. Clearly, though, if someone isn't very good at a particular technique, he's not a good model for judging the effectiveness of the technique.