i have had 1 unintentional discharge in my 30 years of being around firearms. i was 21 and just bought my first handgun ruger P90, i attempted to drop the hammer manually on a loaded chamber and boom. almost shot my bleeping foot, last time i ever dropped the hammer like that on anything.
POLL: Handgun Accidental & Negligent Discharges
- Thread starter Chindo18Z
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Only ND I've ever personally witnessed was with my little sister (she was 14 or so at the time). She had my fathers S&W Model 28, pointed it downrange and cocked the hammer, and turned around to ask a question about something.
Didn't take her finger off that extremely light SA trigger, and it went off into the ceiling of the range. Thankfully she had it kept the gun pointed downrange the whole time.
Didn't take her finger off that extremely light SA trigger, and it went off into the ceiling of the range. Thankfully she had it kept the gun pointed downrange the whole time.
I had a Colt Woodsman .22 slam fire on me, which I've characterized as an AD. It was fairly old and quite dirty at the time, and I suspect the firing pin got jammed forward or something. Anyway, since the muzzle was in a safe direction, it was just very startling. I was done shooting that gun, though!
Loosedhorse
member
At the moment, the leaders (tied at 15) are SASAND and SFSAND. That is, 1911s and Glocks. The most popular SAs out there. Shocked! 
Claymore1500
Member
I don't know if you will count this, I was working on an M1 carbine for a friend of my brother, he claimed it would not extract the empties, I cleaned enough shaved brass from around the chamber mouth to make another cart, case, It was blocking the extractor.
I then took it to the range to test it, loaded 5 rounds, fired 1, ok, fired 2, ok, the next time I pulled the trigger it fired the rest (3 shots).
I took it home and promptly replaced the trigger group.
I then took it to the range to test it, loaded 5 rounds, fired 1, ok, fired 2, ok, the next time I pulled the trigger it fired the rest (3 shots).
I took it home and promptly replaced the trigger group.
Ranger30-06
Member
There's a hole on the upper board at my shooting range where an idiot shot one off when unloading. He got sent home immediately. Scared the crap out of the rest of us too...
Radagast
Member
Yep. I ventilated a TV with a Daisy BB gun about 25 years ago.
I've seen an AD with a 1911 that had a little too much home sear grinding. BRRRRTTTT.
A _lot_ of NDs in about 15 minutes by a RAN naval boarding party attempting to shoot their Browning Hi-Powers for the very first time.
A couple of double action revolver NDs on my part, again a quarter century ago, that encouraged me to go and get some training and learn safe habits. Which led me eventually to IPSC, where I have seen people stumble,trip, fall or slide on their knees through road base with resulting gouges, while always keeping the muzzle down range and finger off the trigger.
I've seen an AD with a 1911 that had a little too much home sear grinding. BRRRRTTTT.
A _lot_ of NDs in about 15 minutes by a RAN naval boarding party attempting to shoot their Browning Hi-Powers for the very first time.
A couple of double action revolver NDs on my part, again a quarter century ago, that encouraged me to go and get some training and learn safe habits. Which led me eventually to IPSC, where I have seen people stumble,trip, fall or slide on their knees through road base with resulting gouges, while always keeping the muzzle down range and finger off the trigger.
boatmanschneider
Member
few months ago a friend of mine(Army, small arms weapons instructor, PSG) Took his 1911 out from a lock box in his jeep and pulled the slide back 1/2" to verify there was a round in the chamber. Finger off the trigger. When he released the slide it fired, into the inside of his open jeep door. it broke the glass and put a dent in the steel. Did not exit the door.
He was in the court house parking lot.
He was in the court house parking lot.
The poll results will be roughly identical to the popularity of the various types of handguns in the poll.
The reason I say that is that the vast majority of unintentional discharges have nothing to do with the design of the firearm and everything to do with shooter error.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=114287
Note that approximately 87% happen with the shooter's finger inside the triggerguard/on the trigger. That means that about 9 out of 10 unintentional discharges are a direct result of a violation of rule 2.
A staggering 53% of unintentional discharges happen when the trigger is pulled ON PURPOSE.
By the way, I think something's wrong with the accidental discharge numbers on this poll. It looks to me like people are reporting things they've heard, not things they experienced or witnessed themselves or maybe they're not reading the poll questions/options properly. My poll indicates that only about 10% of unintentional discharges qualify as accidental discharges (result from broken or defective guns). So far these poll results indicate that nearly half of all unintentional discharges are a result of defective/broken guns. I don't believe that's possible.
The reason I say that is that the vast majority of unintentional discharges have nothing to do with the design of the firearm and everything to do with shooter error.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=114287
Note that approximately 87% happen with the shooter's finger inside the triggerguard/on the trigger. That means that about 9 out of 10 unintentional discharges are a direct result of a violation of rule 2.
A staggering 53% of unintentional discharges happen when the trigger is pulled ON PURPOSE.
By the way, I think something's wrong with the accidental discharge numbers on this poll. It looks to me like people are reporting things they've heard, not things they experienced or witnessed themselves or maybe they're not reading the poll questions/options properly. My poll indicates that only about 10% of unintentional discharges qualify as accidental discharges (result from broken or defective guns). So far these poll results indicate that nearly half of all unintentional discharges are a result of defective/broken guns. I don't believe that's possible.
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lizziedog1
Member
Not to put anyone down, but how the heck do you have an accidental discharge with a single action revolver?
Been there, done that, posted the link to prove it.
That's not the point. The point is that there's no way that 45% of unintentional discharges are the results of parts breakage or defective guns and that's what this poll results were showing when I checked them.
JohnKsa: This poll has nothing to do with total frequency of unintentional discharges...nor total frequency of ADs vs. NDs.
TYPE OF ACTION. That's all this one is about.
This poll hasn't even been up long enough to draw conclusions. We can talk about those after it closes on 12 DEC.
Many of those who have voted are recording multiple incidents under the fairly broad criteria I listed. As always, everyone could be telling a lie. I'll live with that...let the chips fall where they may. (Didn't we already have this discussion last year over on a Beretta poll?)
Your very interesting poll covered a different (but related) topic.
Do you have any personal experiences to relate for this one?
Regards,
Chindo18Z
TYPE OF ACTION. That's all this one is about.
This poll hasn't even been up long enough to draw conclusions. We can talk about those after it closes on 12 DEC.
Many of those who have voted are recording multiple incidents under the fairly broad criteria I listed. As always, everyone could be telling a lie. I'll live with that...let the chips fall where they may. (Didn't we already have this discussion last year over on a Beretta poll?)
Your very interesting poll covered a different (but related) topic.
Do you have any personal experiences to relate for this one?
Regards,
Chindo18Z
Of course it does. Each category (besides the "Other" category) asks the user to categorize the reported unintentional discharge by both action type AND whether it was an ND or an AD. It's in the title of the thread and you even went to the trouble to give careful definitions of AD and ND to allow accurate categorization by the respondents.
That means the results should show a relative frequency of NDs to ADs even if that wasn't the original intent of the poll.
Here's what it shows at this point.
39 (31%) of the unintentional discharges were categorized by the respondents as ADs (broken/defective guns per your definition).
87 (69%) of the unintentional discharges were categorized by the respondents as NDs
From the poll I did and from other information I've seen, 31% is very high for the percentage of unintentional discharges resulting from defective/broken guns. Typically the number is much lower--around 10% or so--3 times lower than what we see here. That suggests that people are over-reporting ADs for some reason.
The reason I pointed it out is that the fact that the AD/ND categorization isn't matching up with reality, suggests that the action type results will be skewed/corrupted as well.
I voted on the poll. Is that a prerequisite for posting on the thread?
jmstevens2
Member
I cannot vote. Mine is none of the above as of yet. Thank goodness.
jmstevens2
Member
1. Most tend to see themselves as less flawed than others. They will often not admit fault, or define it differently than you. Just add the two together then.
2. What reality? Your reality? The Brady bunch's reality? The real numbers will vary depending on knowledge, training and maturity.
This poll is as real as anything. Most unintended discharges are never reported, so all you can do is extrapolate from the reports you have. Basically guess.
I know a cop who shot himself playing with a cheap little throw away gun he had. He wiped it off tossed it and called it in as an ambush shooting.
People for MANY reasons don't always admit when they screw up.
Thank you. And no, it's not a prerequisite.
I really don't care about the aggregate figures you are concerned with. They are irrelevant to my purpose. This particular poll is about what I said it's about.
Right now, I see my poll getting derailed by an unnecessary Immediate Argument Drill. I'd appreciate that not happening until after the poll closes.
Wait a few weeks and we can have a side discussion about the issues that concern you. Frankly, I don't yet see enough votes to discern any valid trends.
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Getting people to self-report their own negligence is not easy, and will tend to skew low. Moreover, I suspect that THR'ers as a group skew toward the competent and careful, so they would have fewer ND's than the gun-shooting population as a whole.
Quote: "So far these poll results indicate that nearly half of all unintentional discharges are a result of defective/broken guns. I don't believe that's possible.
I don't believe it either. I'm aware of at least half a dozen NDs that happened inside our police HQ in the last 40 years or so and not one of them could be attributed to a defective firearm. ALL were shooter error."
I think that most of the participants here on this board are probably much more careful and diligent shooters than the average gunowner. ;-)
I've never had a "negligent discharge", nor one caused by mechanical malfunction. I'm sure I have accidentally fired before I wanted to (not being careful with the trigger finger, something like that), but still downrange towards the target. Even then, it would have been a LONG time ago now.
I don't believe it either. I'm aware of at least half a dozen NDs that happened inside our police HQ in the last 40 years or so and not one of them could be attributed to a defective firearm. ALL were shooter error."
I think that most of the participants here on this board are probably much more careful and diligent shooters than the average gunowner. ;-)
I've never had a "negligent discharge", nor one caused by mechanical malfunction. I'm sure I have accidentally fired before I wanted to (not being careful with the trigger finger, something like that), but still downrange towards the target. Even then, it would have been a LONG time ago now.
Folks: I think some of you are taking the stats and running with them to arrive at early and erroneous conclusions.
Consider the following factors at play:
1. This poll (so far) is but a minuscule data point; not enough folks have voted to draw any solid conclusions. It's only been up for about a week.
2. THR membership are firearms aficionados...folks whose lives tend to intersect with guns more than the average bear. Many are life-long shooters and hobbyists. They tend to own guns (plural), know other folks who own guns (plural), and intersect with a wide circle of shooters over the course of their lives. Odds are that someone who has been shooting competitively or professionally for many decades is going to be aware of a lot more incidents than ten or twenty other someones who keep a .38 in the nightstand and shoot once every year or five.
Folks with longtime firearms experience are going to be aware of more ADs (or NDs) than the occasional plinker or new shooter. They will naturally skew the AD vs. ND picture because they are voting multiple times across different sub-categories. Had I just wanted to know those figures, I could have simply set up the poll to reflect two categories: (1.Have you had an AD? / 2. Have you had an ND?).
Naturally, the votes are skewed with regard to total inadvertent discharges...because vast numbers of people that have them aren't even members of this forum. I already know that ND's significantly outnumber AD's across the entire shooting population. That entire population isn't accurately represented here.
3. Shooter environments can skew re-portable incident awareness as well...
I wouldn't expect ADs to be a significant factor in a Glock equipped Police Department, despite common claims that "the gun just went off". Glocks are safe weapons and rarely suffer failures resulting in an AD. NDs would tend to be the flavor in that environment.
In my particular professional environment, ADs do outnumber NDs. For my organization, NDs are career killing events even if they happen with a muzzle safely pointed down range during training. We see guns that actually fail with a higher frequency than shooters demonstrating brainlock incidents. Our guys rarely have NDs. Our training is good, our folks are switched on pros, and the penalties are severe. Legitimate (proven through investigation) ADs are the flavor in that environment.
A 30-year professional hunting guide may have seen a lot more Remington 700 or Single Action Army style revolver ADs than a guy who occasionally shoots home self defense weaponry at his local range. The voter's environment (and most commonly encountered weapon type) is going to skew report-able numbers.
In summary: I wouldn't use the numbers on this poll to draw conclusions concerning total inadvertent discharge percentages across the entire shooting population or to quantify the total ratio of ADs vs. NDs (for all firearms / all shooters).
Consider the following factors at play:
1. This poll (so far) is but a minuscule data point; not enough folks have voted to draw any solid conclusions. It's only been up for about a week.
2. THR membership are firearms aficionados...folks whose lives tend to intersect with guns more than the average bear. Many are life-long shooters and hobbyists. They tend to own guns (plural), know other folks who own guns (plural), and intersect with a wide circle of shooters over the course of their lives. Odds are that someone who has been shooting competitively or professionally for many decades is going to be aware of a lot more incidents than ten or twenty other someones who keep a .38 in the nightstand and shoot once every year or five.
Folks with longtime firearms experience are going to be aware of more ADs (or NDs) than the occasional plinker or new shooter. They will naturally skew the AD vs. ND picture because they are voting multiple times across different sub-categories. Had I just wanted to know those figures, I could have simply set up the poll to reflect two categories: (1.Have you had an AD? / 2. Have you had an ND?).
Naturally, the votes are skewed with regard to total inadvertent discharges...because vast numbers of people that have them aren't even members of this forum. I already know that ND's significantly outnumber AD's across the entire shooting population. That entire population isn't accurately represented here.
3. Shooter environments can skew re-portable incident awareness as well...
I wouldn't expect ADs to be a significant factor in a Glock equipped Police Department, despite common claims that "the gun just went off". Glocks are safe weapons and rarely suffer failures resulting in an AD. NDs would tend to be the flavor in that environment.
In my particular professional environment, ADs do outnumber NDs. For my organization, NDs are career killing events even if they happen with a muzzle safely pointed down range during training. We see guns that actually fail with a higher frequency than shooters demonstrating brainlock incidents. Our guys rarely have NDs. Our training is good, our folks are switched on pros, and the penalties are severe. Legitimate (proven through investigation) ADs are the flavor in that environment.
A 30-year professional hunting guide may have seen a lot more Remington 700 or Single Action Army style revolver ADs than a guy who occasionally shoots home self defense weaponry at his local range. The voter's environment (and most commonly encountered weapon type) is going to skew report-able numbers.
In summary: I wouldn't use the numbers on this poll to draw conclusions concerning total inadvertent discharge percentages across the entire shooting population or to quantify the total ratio of ADs vs. NDs (for all firearms / all shooters).
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