POLL: Handgun Accidental & Negligent Discharges

[Chindo18Z]

Chindo18Z: 1. This poll (so far) is but a minuscule data point; not enough folks have voted to draw any solid conclusions. It's only been up for about a week.

Ignoring my own point, I'll venture a few minor observations to date:

1. I expected Striker Fired weapon incidents to handily outnumber all others. I'm surprised to see SA Semi-Autos easily keeping pace. That might be explained by the learning curve of gazillions of folks either mishandling 1911 style guns... or rendering those same guns mechanically unsound by the addition of after market kit parts or modifications. 1911s are the 60's muscle cars of the handgun community...everyone gets one sooner or later...and everyone sooner or later wants to change specs/parts...because it's so easy to do and the market encourages it. Or maybe it's part of some statistical intersection where folks who shoot long enough eventually have an ND/AD AND own a 1911... (I realize that every SA Semi-Auto is NOT necessarily a 1911...but they do comprise a lion's share of the type).

2. DAO weapons don't seem to have a lot of incidents. I wonder why? (Not really).

3. SA revolvers seem to have a lot of votes (relatively). I wonder if this is because of a combination of modifications (action jobs) or mechanically worn older weapons? Or is it just something that goes with the Cowboy Action / Fast Draw territory? Or the hunting community?

4. DA revolvers don't seem to have many ADs (so far) which is strange because millions of them exist and many have also "benefited" from mechanical wear, questionable action jobs, kitchen-table gunsmithing, or garage addition of after market parts. I'd have thought the factors I mentioned about 1911s might apply here. So far, I'd be wrong.

5. I see damn few ADs with Striker Fired handguns.

6. I'd still love to hear some anecdotes from the "Other" category. I hardly expected any.


I've got no answers to this point, just speculation. Flail away...

 

[Hk Dan]

Dude, I shoot USPSA. Yes, I've seen NDs...LOL

 

[JohnKSa]

I'm surprised to see SA Semi-Autos easily keeping pace.

This gets back to my initial point. Given that NDs make up the majority of the unintentional discharges, and NDs relate primarily to shooter error, not handgun design, what the poll should primarily show is the relative popularity of the various handgun types with the voters on this poll.

In other words, if you could do an identical poll asking each voter who voted on this poll about which handgun designs were most strongly represented in his "armory", I think you'd find that the results mirrored the results of this poll.

 

[Demitrios]

I'm not sure if my story is relavant but the other for the first time in 23 years of shooting I had a hang fire. I was shooting my 1911, I pulled the trigger and nothing happened. I blinked for a second and went to rack the slide and when I did the round fired. Thank God safety training is second nature because that pistol was pointing down range, like it was supposed to, when it went off.

 

[PedalBiker]

My only ever ND was a Marlin model 60.


I was in an Army Unit where a soldier fired a 1911 during change of guard duty. I heard the report, but they were in a different room, so I'm not sure this one counts. Fortunately no one got hurt, but a lot of soldiers were pretty shaky the read of the day. That same unit also had a firearm disappear. We got locked down for hours, every vehicle was searched before it left the unit, but we never found it.

 

[destrux]

For this poll to have any sort of meaningful results you would have to limit the poll to AD/ND that happened only to the voter, and you would also have to poll them on what type of guns they own and how often they use each of them.

I have been lucky enough to have never experienced a ND nor an AD, but I own and regularly shoot 4 SA semi-autos, One DAO semi-auto, One SA/DA revolver, and One striker fired semi-auto. Pretty safe to say that the odds of a mishap happening with a SA Semi would be much higher than any other type, just based on the fact that I own four of them, and only one of the others (and none of the other types in the poll). I also rarely shoot anything other than the SA Semi's, I just prefer them.

No offense, but the only thing I see this poll providing is negative information. It would be the same as polling on an automotive forum asking what type of cars people have seen crashed. You probably won't end up with the most dangerous car as the winner.

Although I suspect that's why I pay very low car insurance rates for my Supra Turbo, and over twice as much for my Honda Accord. A higher number of Accords have been wrecked than the total number of Supras ever built. I can say for sure I've gotten in alot more trouble with the Supra though.

 

[dcarch]

Buddy of mine was running a "tactical room clearing drill" with a S&W 19, and forgot to clear the cylinder. He shot out the window of his bedroom. OOPS.

 

[Chindo18Z]

destrux: No offense, but the only thing I see this poll providing is negative information.

No offense taken. The poll is what it is. I'm simply interested in the responses. I'm not conducting a peer review study. And the results are meaningful to me.

The 147,000+ members of THR represent less than 1% of total American firearms owners (no offense intended to our international membership). However, they make for a handy sample of shooters to query.

destrux: I can say for sure I've gotten in alot more trouble with the Supra though.

I owned an '85 Supra ...hot ride...wrecked it. Still miss that car.

PedalBiker: I was in an Army Unit where a soldier fired a 1911 during change of guard duty. I heard the report, but they were in a different room, so I'm not sure this one counts.

That absolutely counts. You know that it happened (as opposed to reading about it on the internet). Thanks.

 

[Al Thompson]

Not to put anyone down, but how the heck do you have an accidental discharge with a single action revolver?

Back in the '70's, buddy of mine worked the sear down on a Ruger Singe Six. if you cocked it, you could push on the hammer and the sear would slip enough to drop the hammer. This was fairly common if someone bubba'd a revolver.

Chindo, interesting survey. Probably no way to do it, but the "when" of the AD/ND would be interesting. Once we started getting the four rules propagated, I would expect a downward trend in frequency. IME, I know of more before about 1990 than after, despite the increase in firearm ownership after that.

On a slightly different note, I've found that dry firing seems to be a factor. The desire to get one more good sight alignment and trigger press in has led to several NDs IME. It sure did for me when I blasted a JHP through a window.

 

[The Bushmaster]

NO SUCH THING AS AN ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE (AD)...!! "Cause and effect", gentlemen. That makes everything a negligent discharge.

As for as the poll is concerned, that easy...Glock...Or any firearm that uses Glocks trigger safety system.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm surprised to see SA Semi-Autos easily keeping pace.

You shouldn't be. If graphed against the number of types of guns out there, I would expect the SAO (specifically the 1911) to far outstrip the Striker fired (Glock) by quite a margin.

When reading many threads, I'm amazed at the disagreement that exist of when the thumb safety should be disengaged during a draw or when (even if) it should be re-engaged during a lull. With the thumb safety disengaged, the 1911 trigger has less travel and tactile feedback, before release, than the often faulted Glock trigger. Couple this with the apparent reluctance of many to acquire professional training in handling their guns, it is amazing how few NDs (I don't subscribe to the belief in ADs) there really are

 

[Ala Dan]

Smith & Wesson model 459 9mm

 

[1858remington]

I had a coworker who had a ND in the locker room while transferring his gun from carry holster to duty holster. No injuries, except a wall and the loss of his job.

Theres a vid on youtube of a guy doing close quarters defensive drills who has a ND as the gun was pulled from the holster. He shot himself in the leg with his 45.

 

[FadingSwordsman]

NO SUCH THING AS AN ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE (AD)...!! "Cause and effect", gentlemen. That makes everything a negligent discharge.

As for as the poll is concerned, that easy...Glock...Or any firearm that uses Glocks trigger safety system.

I've had an AD, with both a handgun and a rifle.

I was doing a carbine training course and we had the order to cease fire. I still had my trigger down, and let it up. Gun went off. It shouldn't have.

I also managed to get my old Roommate's Beretta 92 to AD. Held down the trigger after shooting, put on the decocker, let off the trigger. Hammer was stuck back. Took off the decocker, and bang. Gave myself a nice burn on the thumb.

Both incidents resulted in no injuries. Both were ADs.

I've had an ND, too. That one was with a Glock (But wasn't a mechanical failure, it was user error.) I haven't had one in the half-decade since, and am still one of the most careful shooters I know. (That ringing stays in your ears a loooong time, and I haven't forgotten it since) The ND happened while I was doing trigger pull/sight picture dry firing... Mr. Thompson was dead on, there.

 

[The Bushmaster]

FadingSwordsman...Those two incidents were Negligent discharges because of the failure to properly maintain the weapons or the oversight of the operator. Again "Cause and Effect"...You caused something to happen and the effect was a unwanted discharge of the firearm.

 

[mongo4567]

I voted Single Action Semi-Auto ND; had a friend next to me at the range put a round into the ground. He broke the rule about keeping the booger hooker off the trigger. It was a light trigger and an unfamiliar gun, but still an ND.

I had one that I didn't know how to vote on. I have a friend that has done a lot of tactical training. He likes to shoot fast. He keeps the trigger tightened up, only releasing enough for reset. He kept doubling or trippling when shooting my T33 Tokarev; he was really just bump firing with his hand. He would have called it an AD, I would have called it an ND.

 

[FadingSwordsman]

FadingSwordsman...Those two incidents were Negligent discharges because of the failure to properly maintain the weapons or the oversight of the operator. Again "Cause and Effect"...You caused something to happen and the effect was a unwanted discharge of the firearm.

...What?

The Beretta was NIB, and the double firing rifle was close to it. Both inspected for defects before shooting, and both had none I could find without firing the weapons. The AD with the Beretta was during a live-fire function check, the rifle not too long after an initial function check was done.

I don't think you fully understand the term negligent, but I'm not about to argue with you on it.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I also managed to get my old Roommate's Beretta 92 to AD. Held down the trigger after shooting, put on the decocker, let off the trigger. Hammer was stuck back. Took off the decocker, and bang. Gave myself a nice burn on the thumb.

While I agree that the failure with the carbine was an AD, as it was a malfunction of the trigger, but I would classify this one as a ND.

I believe your holding the trigger back while applying the de-cocker did not allow the firing pin safety to reengage before you released the hammer, with the de-cocker. Releasing the trigger jammed the action, releasing the de-cocker completed it's function from when you interrupted it by having the trigger held back. The firing pin had already moved past the point where the firing pin safety's block would interrupt it's forward movement.

I believe that operating the action out of it's design sequence makes it a ND...just like pulling a trigger before clearing the chamber during dis-assembly of a Glock

 

[gyvel]

Saw an AD with a small Astra .25 auto in the gun shop I was working in at the time. Was brought in by a customer that said it was "messed up", and before asking exactly what was the problem, my boss racked the slide and there was a round in the magazine...and the "messed up" was that it was slam firing....put a bullet in the linoleum tiles between his feet.

That's something I would put in the ND area. First, your boss should have removed the magazine. Since he didn't, his next mistake was allowing the round to chamber. In my opinion, the whole thing is an ND, not an AD.

 

[Fatdaddy]

Had an old Spesco single action 22 with a defective/broken sear engagment that went off after setting to full cock. Seems like guns are louder when you're not expecting them to go off.

 

[gyvel]

For purposes of this poll, an Accidental Discharge is one caused by MECHANICAL FAILURE of the weapon (e.g., part breakage, mechanical safety failure, design flaw, etc.).

Not to be rude but I reiterate, does anyone have conclusive links (evidence) of an actual accidental discharge due to a mechanical malfunction? I am not saying they have not happened, I would just like to know of a recorded event...? Is it possible that it's conjecture?

Yes. This is about as much of an AD as it gets. Some years ago, after a thorough cleaning, I was preparing to test fire a Webley and Scott Model 1910 .38 ACP automatic. The gun was in near new, excellent conditon.

Unfortunately, the gun was designed with a system whereby, when the magazine was fully inserted, it tripped a mechanism that released the slide and chambered the first round, much in the same manner as the contemporary Mauser 1910 and 1910/14 autos.

The store I worked in had a bullet trap, and, per common sense safety rules, all weapons which were being prepared for test firing were pointed at the trap prior to charging the chamber. When the magazine was pushed home, the weapon discharged, much to my surprise.

Afterwards, the weapon was completely dismantled and the sear, internal hammer, and relevant springs were examined and all found to be without any apparent defects. (Worn notches, alterations, weak springs, etc.)

I consider that a bona fide AD due to mechanical/design deficiency.

 

[FadingSwordsman]

While I agree that the failure with the carbine was an AD, as it was a malfunction of the trigger, but I would classify this one as a ND.

I believe your holding the trigger back while applying the de-cocker did not allow the firing pin safety to reengage before you released the hammer, with the de-cocker. Releasing the trigger jammed the action, releasing the de-cocker completed it's function from when you interrupted it by having the trigger held back. The firing pin had already moved past the point where the firing pin safety's block would interrupt it's forward movement.

I believe that operating the action out of it's design sequence makes it a ND...just like pulling a trigger before clearing the chamber during dis-assembly of a Glock

The hammer actually jammed back when I engaged the decocker, so I was fairly certain the gun was going to go off when I flipped the switch back off. I had to make sure, though, since that's part of what a function check is -- Both of us wanted to know whether the gun was going to randomly go off when removing the safety of the gun, which is an important thing to know. My roomie definitely didn't want to shoot himself in the leg if the hammer somehow got stuck like that.

So, that may be an ND. I still classify it as an AD, since that same set of steps (Fire, hold down trigger, engage decocker) drops the hammer on a rotated firing pin (i.e. the gun doesn't go off when removing the safety) on the Px4, whereas the 92 doesn't drop the hammer at the end of those events. Design specifications say that the decocker should remove the FP and drop the hammer every time it's engaged, even before trigger reset. (Actually, trigger position isn't specified, it should work either way)

The reason I say it's an AD is when I initially engaged the safety, we stopped and analyzed. The gun was downrange the whole time, and the range (Well, more of a hill) was still live, both of us were fully expecting the gun to go off, but by its specifications, it shouldn't have.

 

[GLOOB]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=114287

Note that approximately 87% happen with the shooter's finger inside the triggerguard/on the trigger. That means that about 9 out of 10 unintentional discharges are a direct result of a violation of rule 2.

A staggering 53% of unintentional discharges happen when the trigger is pulled ON PURPOSE.

This has always been my belief. I'm glad someone took the time to do the stats. Thanks, John.

AS for AD's, I've read of a couple P64's going off when dropped. The thing about these guns is they are DA/SA, and a lot of people think they're soooo safe with a 30 lb DA trigger pull they don't use the manual safety. Guess how you activate the firing pin block on a P64?

Theres a vid on youtube of a guy doing close quarters defensive drills who has a ND as the gun was pulled from the holster. He shot himself in the leg with his 45.

Yeah, he's now part of standard ND terminology. Like if you stuff a Glock in the waistband of your sweatpants and accidentally pull the trigger when you grab for it, that's a Plaxico. If you shoot your leg while drawing your sidearm, you've Tex Grebnered yourself. If you do something even more bone-headed, then you were probably the only one in the room qualified to handle a Glock 40.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The hammer actually jammed back when I engaged the decocker, so I was fairly certain the gun was going to go off when I flipped the switch back off. I had to make sure, though, since that's part of what a function check is -- Both of us wanted to know whether the gun was going to randomly go off when removing the safety of the gun, which is an important thing to know. My roomie definitely didn't want to shoot himself in the leg if the hammer somehow got stuck like that.

I went back and read your original post and am leaning toward changing my mind to a AD due to mechanical malfunction

I went out to the garage to try this on my Beretta 96...it just sounded strange when I first read it...and couldn't replicate it. My safety always drops the hammer from the cock position.

Just curious, why would you hold the trigger to the rear, if you had finished shooting, while de-cocking?

My observation has been that most folks would clear the gun first (magazine and chamber)...releasing the trigger during the procedure...before de-cocking to lower the hammer

 

[FadingSwordsman]

It was essentially one of the use cases we can up beforehand. DA/SA shooting, resets after both, engaging decocker with trigger down or up, attempting to fire while decocked. I'm not sure there's a real-world situation where you would do that (And now my roommate has a reason to practice not doing it, if he hasn't gotten it fixed)