Practical tactics with AR... how do you train?

[rp_40]

Oh my... Rationality, the quality or state of reason; reasonable. Irrationality, the lack of. This is ridiculous, are you people serious?
28 years and you never had to qualify on a B27, FBI Q or anything else that required a 70 or 80% score huh? Never heard a scoring system with, say for example 250 possible score, multiplied by .4? No offense then, but a career as a mall cop doesn't count.
I'm done spending time on this, the information I've gathered from here suggests you're either trying to "sell" defensive training, or you're trying to justify your own expense; hence irrationality, which is pointless to argue with.

 

[Fred Fuller]

the information I've gathered from here suggests you're either trying to "sell" defensive training, or you're trying to justify your own expense; hence irrationality, which is pointless to argue with

Funny.

The name of the subforum is Strategies, Tactics and Training.

And we're not supposed to talk about training?

Tell me again who's being irrational...

 

[strambo]

So, training is needed for "offense" but not "defense?" What is the difference in the individual skill sets needed to "defensively" shoot someone to death vs. "offensively" shoot someone to death?

Professionals train for a reason, a lot of this training and practice is on individual skills. They also train on team skills and tactics, but the individuals all have to be trained up 1st. The really switched on ones (outside of tier 1 units and elite SWAT teams) spend their own time and $ to get more training on their own because they recognize that whatever the military unit or LE Dept. provided training is, it isn't adequate.

I can definitely speak for the Army infantry side of things. At the individual firearm skill level, a lot is left to be desired. At the small unit and above level, the unit training, tactics, equipment and support (direct/indirect fires and close air support) are such that we can overwhelm any force do to the synergistic effect of all of those things.

We are most exposed a handful of soldiers at a time in a house where it is a man-to-man gunfight. This is where individual training and skill is huge, and also what directly relates to anyone interested in personal protection. If you get in a fight, it will be close, without support or high-end gear. Your skill at arms is all you will have, professional development of such makes sense to me...and would not be "irrational."

 

[justice06rr]

Jeff, no, I haven't. As I've said, I have no doubt that a carbine course can improve one's abilities with said weapon. My posts though are pertaining to how much value those improvements provide in realistic home defense scenarios. For example, if one's strategy in a HD scenario is to stay put in their bedroom with gun trained on the door while awaiting arrival of LE, is something like support hand placement going to really make any difference in the outcome if they are forced to shoot? If one does decide to clear the house or must get to another room to protect family, I suppose weapon retention, as Kleanbore mentioned, could become very important. But when it comes to marksmanship and weapon manipulation against civilian criminals at HD distances, i'm just wondering if there isn't a rapidly degrading degree of advantage provided beyond the basics. Now if we're talking about use of carbine beyond HD, such as used by LE, military, defense contractors, the I have no doubt that a higher level of skill can be the deciding factor in outcomes. Ultimately, what i'm asking is this: if one is going to invest time and money in training for HD, is a carbine course really the best option for maximum return on investment?

There are things you will learn in a carbine course that you do not normally do even if you are familiar with rifles/AR's.

Take a 2-Gun or even 3-Gun event and you will see. In my area it costs $15/day.

You learn many valuable skills besides just the basic handling of your rifle such as:

- different techniques for reloading
- shooting multiple targets
- shooting from cover
- reloading from cover
- switching between your primary and secondary weapon (and third for 3gun)
- Safety techniques
- Pie-ing techniques
- Shooting with your weak side hand
- Shooting prone, kneeling, sitting, and standing
- Shooting various distances
- Shooting different targets (paper, steel, etc)

Shooting with weak/support side was the best thing I learned from 3Gun. For example, we had a stage where you had to shoot all 3 weapons (pistol, rifle, shotgun) with your weak side. This is very challenging if you have never done it before. Even just reloading your weapon can take a long time if you have never done it.

There are so many things to learn that there isn't really a point of diminishing return.

As a civilian, I have learned more about shooting techniques in the few events I have attended than all my static range shooting combined. On my first 3gun event, I was hitting targets at 150yards on the first few tries. Prior to that I've never shot anything past 50yards. The real time advice you get from the RO's, Instructors, and other experienced shooters is more valuable than anything you will watch on video or read from a book.

 

[JustinJ]

justice06rr, as I said I have no doubt that a carbine course will improve one's skills with said weapon. As I also said, i'm talking about how much said skills will actually translate to practical home defense scenarios. I've read countless real world home defense events and very rarely, if at all, were speed reloads or shooting from cover a deciding factor. Taking a course in Formula 1 racing will certainly make one a better driver but that doesn't mean such skills translate to the morning commute. The exception being, if a person has no carbine experience then absolutely learning the basics will be essential to utilizing one for home/self defense. However, beyond the basics, I question just how much better a carbine course will improve one's chances of prevailing in a home defense situation. Hitting targets at 50 yards, much less 150, has no application for such. From the accounts I've read, one's not exactly likely to get in a gun fight with commandos unless they are for some reason being targeted specifically for uncommon attributes or activities. As an example, for malfunction clearing skills to come into play in HD, both the gun would have to malfunction at that moment and there would have to be adequate time for the user to decide if its worth trying to clear and then implement the proper clearing method successfully. All that before the bad guy has time to either shoot or clear the distance. At home defense ranges I just don't see it happening. In a firefight outdoors with cover, sure, such a skill is invaluable. I'm not saying its impossible that a split second of speed or some other skill gained in a course could make the difference but it seems like an extremely unlikely scenario. The largest benefit I see from carbine courses would be had in the event of some SHTF scenario. That, plus shooting and getting better is just plain fun. But until other more pragmatic areas are adequately covered a carbine course is not the best option for most people, imo.

 

[Trent]

Man, this thread went sideways.

Doesn't matter what discipline - I train so I don't *have* to be in a fight.

There's so much more to training than pulling a trigger or getting the mechanical hand/eye stuff down. The mental game is HUGE.

 

[Potatohead]

I'll bet the real "operators" laugh at this

Im sure the real operators would laugh. They have earned that right. But really what else should one do to train, I mean what would you suggest? As a newb, Im seriously curious..not trying to argue.

 

[Al Thompson]

Ah - hem.

As mentioned before Potato, you are a short distance away from world class training.

 

[psdo]

CGRifleman...there are companies that cater to civilians for advanced tactics, weaponry, pistol, and the AR. Magpul is one of the top ones. You can check them out at http://www.magpuldynamics.com/. Scroll to the bottom of the page and click on their "Art of the Tactical Carbine" video. Their staff are all ex-military, and some of them ex-spec. Their prices are fair. They also offer teaching videos. You might be interested in these: http://www.amazon.com/Art-Tactical-Carbine-Volumn-Edition/dp/B001JEQPKK. They also offer volume 2. There are other ones out there besides them too. Hope this helps.

 

[justice06rr]

justice06rr, as I said I have no doubt that a carbine course will improve one's skills with said weapon. As I also said, i'm talking about how much said skills will actually translate to practical home defense scenarios. I've read countless real world home defense events and very rarely, if at all, were speed reloads or shooting from cover a deciding factor. Taking a course in Formula 1 racing will certainly make one a better driver but that doesn't mean such skills translate to the morning commute. The exception being, if a person has no carbine experience then absolutely learning the basics will be essential to utilizing one for home/self defense. However, beyond the basics, I question just how much better a carbine course will improve one's chances of prevailing in a home defense situation. Hitting targets at 50 yards, much less 150, has no application for such. From the accounts I've read, one's not exactly likely to get in a gun fight with commandos unless they are for some reason being targeted specifically for uncommon attributes or activities. As an example, for malfunction clearing skills to come into play in HD, both the gun would have to malfunction at that moment and there would have to be adequate time for the user to decide if its worth trying to clear and then implement the proper clearing method successfully. All that before the bad guy has time to either shoot or clear the distance. At home defense ranges I just don't see it happening. In a firefight outdoors with cover, sure, such a skill is invaluable. I'm not saying its impossible that a split second of speed or some other skill gained in a course could make the difference but it seems like an extremely unlikely scenario. The largest benefit I see from carbine courses would be had in the event of some SHTF scenario. That, plus shooting and getting better is just plain fun. But until other more pragmatic areas are adequately covered a carbine course is not the best option for most people, imo.

I understand what you are saying.

But it is an undeniable fact that a race car driver will be better at driving whether he is on the street or on the track, and a Veteran soldier/operator will be better at shooting vs a civilian who doesn't train (or race).

You might not need to know tactical reloads or shooting/reloading from cover, but knowing so will definitely help you instead of hurt you. Moreover, If you can hit 150yards accurately, then 50yards is a piece of cake.
On the flipside If you can't hit your target at 20yards, you will not be able to hit anything at 150yards if you needed to make that shot.

Just sayin'... There are real world benefits to firearms training. You don't need it per se, but it can only help you become a better shooter in any situation whether its HD/SD/competition or whatever.