Practical tactics with AR... how do you train?

[Jenrick]

Jeff, pertaining specifically to HD scenarios, do you feel that there are realistic scenarios in which the improvement in skills from the carbine course would ever actually be a determining factor in the outcome. Granted, you started with military training so somebody without such may very well have much more room for improvement.

You seem to be looking for a very high level of justification to take a carbine course.

A couple of plausible things: You are hunkered down in your chosen fighting position waiting for bad guy. Bad guys appears in the door way armed in a manner indicating lethal intent, causing you to feel an immediate threat to your life. You sweep the safety to fire as you align the sights, and pull the trigger to the rear. The rifle fires the round, and as you pull trigger again you get mush. What do you do?

As you awaken to realize that you need to get our rifle, you realize the bad guy is close, like probably outside your room door close. You grab your rifle and as your hand closes on it, the door open and the bad guy enters into the room armed in a manner indicating a lethal force threat. You have less then a second to get a round off into a vital area before he does the same. Can you?

I will say that when it comes to being in a gun fight, NO ONE in the history of gun fighting has ever wanted: less time, less training, less ammo. We can't control time. We can control ammo to some extent (particularly in a HD scenario) and we can control training. If you are going to potentially be involved in a deadly force encounter where not only your own life, but those of your loved ones (I'm assuming you have some fellow family members residing with you) are at stake, wouldn't you want the best training you could get?

Get the Magpul Carbine 1 DVD set, I think it's about $40 these days. Watch disc 1 which is Magpul's basic carbine course. If you get something out of it, go take a basic carbine class so you can have an instructor make sure you learn the right way. If you already have all that info (which is quiet possible, it's just a basic carbine class), then watch the second disc. If you get something out of it, go take an intermediate or advanced class.

I can tell you right now that the all the high-speed low drag, top tier instructors in the US by and large (Vickers, CSAT, Viking, Tiger Swan, etc.) all teach similar material due to their similar military backgrounds. The material is nothing earth shattering, there are no ninja tricks here. Its all stuff most of them have posted on their websites and youtube videos of the techniques. People will pay in excess of $1k to travel and train with them, to learn how to do it correctly and efficiently, even though they can try to teach themselves to do the same drills for free (well ammo and time). There is a reason for that, and that is an instructor will make sure you learn how to do it correctly, and most importantly WHY.

-Jenrick

 

[JustinJ]

You seem to be looking for a very high level of justification to take a carbine course.

I'm not sure what you mean. What i'm discussing is to what degree an improvement in skills gained from a carbine course will translate to HD benefit, especially relative to other options when available resources for training are limited.

A couple of plausible things: You are hunkered down in your chosen fighting position waiting for bad guy. Bad guys appears in the door way armed in a manner indicating lethal intent, causing you to feel an immediate threat to your life. You sweep the safety to fire as you align the sights, and pull the trigger to the rear. The rifle fires the round, and as you pull trigger again you get mush. What do you do?

Great question. I'm sure we all agree that one absolutely can learn the proper and quickest way to clear malfunctions in a carbine course. However, at HD ranges, is it realistic to expect one will be able to perform said maneuvers before the bad guy either opens fire if armed or clears the distance if not? So to the point I've raised, is it truly plausible that malfunction clearing skills would translate to a higher chance of prevailing in a home defense scenario.

As you awaken to realize that you need to get our rifle, you realize the bad guy is close, like probably outside your room door close. You grab your rifle and as your hand closes on it, the door open and the bad guy enters into the room armed in a manner indicating a lethal force threat. You have less then a second to get a round off into a vital area before he does the same. Can you?

Maybe, maybe not. How much will the carbine course increase my chances of doing so? Arguably such is an incredibly unlikely scenario (unless one has been targeted for murder) which is partially why I asked if a carbine course is the best option relative to other training options.

For me specifically, I conceal carry so believe pistol courses offer far more to me than carbine as if I ever have to use a weapon it will probably be outside the home. I've received training from a highly qualified friend in such but intend to get more. A number of valid examples of reasons why a carbine course is advantageous in HD scenarios have been provided here, which I don't dispute. Certainly some aspects of a carbine course translate to tangible HD advantage although probably not all. Ultimately though, for me, and probably most, it seems that a pistol course will provide a higher return on investment when it comes to defending myself and my family. I intend to take a carbine course someday, after I feel that I've adequately developed my pistol abilities, but truth be told that is largely because I enjoy shooting carbines and improving is fun.

 

[Pizzapinochle]

I'm not sure what you mean. What i'm discussing is to what degree an improvement in skills gained from a carbine course will translate to HD benefit, especially relative to other options when available resources for training are limited.


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I feel like you are kind of asking the wrong question.

If i take a carbine course, will I be any more effective in an HD situation? Maybe a little, but not much.

If I take a carbine course AND practice the solid techniques learned at the carbine course, will I be any more effective in an HD situation?

DEFINITELY! Any clinic style course (one day/weekend) is unlikely to monumentally change a person (not just firearm related, true of sports, management techniques, anything). What they SHOULD accomplish is to evaluate your current abilities and offer you tools/drills to improve that technique.

The skills and techniques you learn in a carbine course, if consistently practiced, would make you more effective in an HD situation. Just going to a course? Probably not.

 

[Jenrick]

I'm not sure what you mean. What i'm discussing is to what degree an improvement in skills gained from a carbine course will translate to HD benefit, especially relative to other options when available resources for training are limited.

My comment was in regards to several posters stating their arguments for taking a carbine class, to which you seem to want more justification. To me it appeared as though adequate justification had been made for a class, but you appeared to want more. Hence my comment.

However, at HD ranges, is it realistic to expect one will be able to perform said maneuvers before the bad guy either opens fire if armed or clears the distance if not? So to the point I've raised, is it truly plausible that malfunction clearing skills would translate to a higher chance of prevailing in a home defense scenario.

Depending on the scenario and the malfunction encountered it may or may not be an option. However if you are not capable of a rapid stoppage reduction, then regardless of the situation you will probably not prevail. The above could be something as simple as a stovepipe, which could be rapidly cleared in the context of most scenarios to allow additional work by the carbine. Now could it be something as bad as a brass over bolt, double/triple feed/etc. Sure could.

Maybe, maybe not. How much will the carbine course increase my chances of doing so? Arguably such is an incredibly unlikely scenario (unless one has been targeted for murder) which is partially why I asked if a carbine course is the best option relative to other training options.

In regards to needing to make a fast accurate hit: There is no other kind of shooting in self defense arguably. I would also disagree that this is incredibly unlikely. Single story home owners are frequently within 50' of an exterior door, and usually have an exterior window in the bedroom.

To reference my first statement in this post, you appear to want additional justification compared to what most of the responders consider to be adequate. Now I do understand that resources for attending a training course can/are tight, but considering how cheaply quality training can be had for I find this to be a temporary argument at best. Few of us have nothing in our lives we can give up temporarily for a cost savings to be able to attend training that might save lives for the rest of our lives.

For me specifically, I conceal carry so believe pistol courses offer far more to me than carbine as if I ever have to use a weapon it will probably be outside the home. I've received training from a highly qualified friend in such but intend to get more. A number of valid examples of reasons why a carbine course is advantageous in HD scenarios have been provided here, which I don't dispute. Certainly some aspects of a carbine course translate to tangible HD advantage although probably not all. Ultimately though, for me, and probably most, it seems that a pistol course will provide a higher return on investment when it comes to defending myself and my family. I intend to take a carbine course someday, after I feel that I've adequately developed my pistol abilities, but truth be told that is largely because I enjoy shooting carbines and improving is fun.

The above is however a very valid statement about training priorities for your currently. With this clarification I would agree that given a choice between one or the other, a pistol class does make more sense. I would encourage you to seek about qualified training in any weapon system you plan to employee in a defensive context, but as you have noted, focus on the one you'll need the most.

Looking at your location, I might recommend (for pistol or carbine): http://www.progressivecombatskills.com/ who are partnered with http://www.criteriontactical.com/ Criterion is owned an operated by SGM(ret) Kelly Venden who is a former member of USASOF-Delta, former head instructor for the Federal Air Marshal's service, and teaches at the Sig Sauer academy. To say that Kelly knows what he's doing is an understatement and he runs a great class. Courses are VERY well priced (I took a 6 hour carbine class for $200). For an AAR see http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=741741 The PCS range is about 30 minutes outside of town off of 290 by Oak Hill.

-Jenrick

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The main purpose of any course is to teach you the right way to do things. Some courses will also do a decent job of getting in the repetitions necessary to get a good start on developing muscle memory but that can be tough to do given time and money constraints.

You still need to practice what the course teaches you on your own to develop proficiency. However, if budget is a concern, I would concentrate on pistol first since it is more difficult to shoot well and it is more convenient and at-hand.

 

[JustinJ]

To reference my first statement in this post, you appear to want additional justification compared to what most of the responders consider to be adequate. Now I do understand that resources for attending a training course can/are tight, but considering how cheaply quality training can be had for I find this to be a temporary argument at best. Few of us have nothing in our lives we can give up temporarily for a cost savings to be able to attend training that might save lives for the rest of our lives.

Time. As a new father its in short supply. Rather than justification though, i'm primarily inquiring more into the degree of return on investment, especially relative to other uses of resources.

Looking at your location, I might recommend (for pistol or carbine): http://www.progressivecombatskills.com/ who are partnered with http://www.criteriontactical.com/ Criterion is owned an operated by SGM(ret) Kelly Venden who is a former member of USASOF-Delta, former head instructor for the Federal Air Marshal's service, and teaches at the Sig Sauer academy. To say that Kelly knows what he's doing is an understatement and he runs a great class. Courses are VERY well priced (I took a 6 hour carbine class for $200). For an AAR see http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=741741 The PCS range is about 30 minutes outside of town off of 290 by Oak Hill.

Very much appreciated. The problem today in taking courses seems to be more of identifying good ones rather than finding one altogether. Do you have any available feedback on Progressive Combat Skills in general? A few of their four hours pistol courses in April are short enough to be manageable time wise.

 

[Jenrick]

Time. As a new father its in short supply. Rather than justification though, i'm primarily inquiring more into the degree of return on investment, especially relative to other uses of resources.

IF you're going to be using the carbine as your primary HD weapon, I'd still say you'd be better off taking a carbine class then a pistol class IF your pistol work is already good. On the other hand, if your pistol work isn't where you want it, I think you articulated well why you should seek pistol training out over carbine training. There is not a lot of overlap between pistol and rifle training in terms of mechanics, they are two very different weapon systems unfortunately. Yes the concept of aligning the sights and not disturbing this with your trigger pull is the same for both platforms, but there's a lot more to it than that.

Phil Waldra(not sure on the last name spelling) is the owner/instructor of for PCS, and he's a stand up guy. He is very much involved in teaching and training for the military currently. Kelly Venden has partnered up with PCS, and serves as the lead instructor for a lot of their classes, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was there for the pistol courses. Both are good instructors, and the value for what you pay is unreal. I will say I haven't taken a course from just Phil, so I can't say for sure how those are when Kelly's not there, but I can't imagine Kelly would partner with someone who didn't know what they were doing.

-Jenrick

 

[JustinJ]

IF you're going to be using the carbine as your primary HD weapon, I'd still say you'd be better off taking a carbine class then a pistol class IF your pistol work is already good.

Would you agree that before a carbine and a pistol course, it would be prudent to first ensure one's home security is maximized? An alarm system, secure doors and windows, motion lights, cameras etc. I suspect are far more likely to deter and stop criminals than situations in which a firearm is needed. In home defense planning I think its easy to neglect situating the home properly because lets face it, shooting is a lot more fun than installing security cameras.

Phil Waldra(not sure on the last name spelling) is the owner/instructor of for PCS, and he's a stand up guy. He is very much involved in teaching and training for the military currently. Kelly Venden has partnered up with PCS, and serves as the lead instructor for a lot of their classes, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was there for the pistol courses. Both are good instructors, and the value for what you pay is unreal. I will say I haven't taken a course from just Phil, so I can't say for sure how those are when Kelly's not there, but I can't imagine Kelly would partner with someone who didn't know what they were doing.

Their prices certainly are very reasonable. Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Would you agree that before a carbine and a pistol course, it would be prudent to first ensure one's home security is maximized?

Of course. It's all part of the same package, and priorities have to be established logically.

Security comes in layers, like an onion, and defensive firearms are the very center of the onion. Yet firearms are an indespensable part of home protection, as is the ability to use them safely and effectively, simply because all the other layers of security can be bypassed, defeated or ignored by determined assailants.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

And unlike your home security system, a pistol can travel with you outside of the onion that Fred describes.

 

[JAshley73]

Fred, I feel like you should write a book someday. I love the Onion reference...

 

[Fred Fuller]

Fred, I feel like you should write a book someday

Why, thank you!

But that might give the impression I thought I knew what I was talking about . Most of the time I just quote smart people - I can't recall where the 'onion' analogy originated, but it wasn't with me.

 

[9mmepiphany]

My first thought was that you were a referring to ogres...like in Shek. But I'm pretty sure it comes from the world of psychology

 

[rp_40]

You don't need a course, you don't need IDPA, none of that, no matter what competition you enroll in, it's not going to be life or death. If you want to add some stress, have somebody time you shooting, you can do that pretty much anywhere. Courses are designed more as competition, if somebody is great in IDPA or 3 gun, that doesn't mean he's going to be great in defense... granted he will probably know his weapon well, but that's about all you can do. I at one time got this idea that, for my concealed carry gun, there's a chance I might not have time to pull it out and hold it up at arms length, so I went to my range, removed the bench, placed a silhouette at the first baffle, which is about 3 yards there, pulled from under my clothes and fired 2 rounds CM as fast as I could, which was less than a second, and both rounds hit, one on each side of the 9 ring on a B27-75. Point is, if you know your gun, your hand eye coordination is good and you don't panic easily, you'll be fine.
A lot of you seem to worry a TON about this, or say "why not be as prepared as possible" etc. I'm wondering if you're that paranoid that somebody might come get you, if you're that insecure with your shooting ability... I don't quite get it. If you're running competitions, you're still just shooting targets. The police departments didn't used to have a qualification to speak of, then they started firing at different distances under time constraints, sometimes after running etc... and what's the difference in their hit percentage and survival rate as it were in officer involved shootings now? None to speak of... at least none attributed to qualification, more so with capacity of their firearms now than anything, and even that's next to non-existent. If you know your way around your gun, you can shoot it relatively accurately at the range, you can reload it relatively fast, that's about all you can do short of getting real combat experience, and even that might not make you any "better" because every situation would be different. If you want to enroll in 3-gun or something, by all means, shooting is a great sport, but remember, that itself is still just a sport and you're still just shooting at inanimate targets... if you get used to "okay I have to fire two on left target, 3 on right", what's going to happen if the guy or girl doesn't go down after the second or third shot? You might out of habit start scanning for more targets hahaha Seriously though, this stuff isn't necessary, I'll bet the real "operators" laugh at this, it's still just shooting targets, and we can all do that. Most of what they practice is coordination with each other, they're not practicing if they can hit a guy 6 feet away in a certain amount of time, they're practicing so the other guys don't get in their way essentially and all covering their areas of responsibility (using simunition is an excellent way to see who isn't covering their area of responsibility because somebody actually gets hit). And you don't need to worry about coordination with your team members because you don't have any

 

[Jenrick]

rp_40: Then explain to me why "the real 'operators'" spend tens of thousands of government dollars going to places like the Rogers school, or Mid-South? Why do they shoot hundreds of thousands of rounds a year on the range? If there's no value to training, then why do the folks who put their lives on the line do it?

-Jenrick

 

[rp_40]

For one thing, their objective is offense, that's entirely different. And I never said there was no value in hitting your target, they also do hostage, flash bangs etc, none of which are relevant in defense. Granted, there is a chance someone could be holding a family member hostage and you've got a small window to shoot him in the head, but I'd leave that to the cops if possible, and if not, guess what, you're objective is just to hit a small target. The only thing common to offense and defense is stopping the threat. Know your gun, be able to shoot it relatively well. Accuracy goes down on defense compared to offense, a SWAT member will not shoot as well drawing from his holster and firing rounds off because he's in danger as he will if he's breaching a room with his 6 buddies and they've all got M-4s shouldered already

 

[Jeff White]

Rp40,
Do you have any real world experience to back this up? Where did you acquire all of this wisdom?

 

[rp_40]

Experience to back what up? Look it up, research, what actually happens in real shootings? Read the play by play of what happened, listen to 911 calls, even watch dashcam videos of defensive situations. Compare that with the play by play from an offensive standpoint, what's the difference in the two? Almost everything

 

[rp_40]

Oh and as far as things like hit percentage etc, that stuff is all available through the FBI. Did you also know there is NO record the FBI has of any lawsuit of any kind being filed because a bullet over-penetrated and hurt somebody, yet there are several instances of bullets not penetrating far enough and hence not stopping a threat before an agent or officer was killed or severely wounded?

 

[Jeff White]

So you think it's all so simple? That you can put a timer on yourself on the square range and now you're a gunfighter? Let me tell you, a timer isn't stress.

Being on the clock isn't exactly a huge adrenalin dump.

What does hit percentage mean in a gunfight? What does a lawsuit for over penetration have to do with your assertion that it's not necessary to rain for a defensive encounter, only an offensive one?

So if you go to the range, put yourself on a timer and you can shoot better then the mean average of hits in a defensive gunfight, you're good to go, know everything you need to defend yourself and your loved ones? That's your plan?

 

[rp_40]

That's a pretty irrational view of what I said from a moderator. No that's not what I said, I said if you want to add stress, time it, how is that any different that running a course against other peoples times? And I didn't say the mean average either did I? Law enforcement qualifies under time and has to score 70, 80 or 90% depending on the department and their role (ie instructor usually has to score 90, sometimes 95%), the hit percentage in actual gunfights for an agent or officer is roughly 15%. The purpose of the over-penetration statement was gathering information, that's how you prepare, intelligence

 

[rp_40]

You're not going to be able to duplicate life and death stress in a qualification, a competition or a class. Some people handle it well and some don't. And I've done moving and shooting at a target, shooting at moving targets etc, I'm quite familiar with Travis Haley, they're all the same thing, hit your target, learn to point shoot, you'll be a lot better off because it's faster and you don't have to be "square" with your target.

 

[RumT]

Practice-

• Failure to fire/chamber,failure to extract, and double feed/complete mess
• Emergency and tactical reload
• Powered optic failure (if equipped) / transition to BUS
• Deployment of weapon from slung/empty chamber to firing
• Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire

All of these things you can practice with dummy rounds.

 

[9mmepiphany]

You're not going to be able to duplicate life and death stress in a qualification, a competition or a class. Some people handle it well and some don't.

Can you clarify if you are speaking from personal experience or repeating something you've read or watched on video.

I'm quite familiar with Travis Haley

Does this mean you personally know him or that you've heard of him or watched him on Youtube/DVD

Law enforcement qualifies under time and has to score 70, 80 or 90% depending on the department and their role (ie instructor usually has to score 90, sometimes 95%)

Is this knowledge or speculation?

In 28 years in LE, I've never heard these figures thrown out

That's a pretty irrational view of what I said from a moderator.

You are either using the incorrect word or you don't understand what the word means

 

[Jenrick]

Courses are designed more as competition, i

Have you ever actually been to a shooting course?

they also do hostage, flash bangs etc, none of which are relevant in defense.

Where exactly are you getting this concept/idea? Can that be part of training, sure. However the courses I listed specifically are pure shooting, not tactical courses. The rogers school doesn't include distraction devices in their curriculum unless something has changed.

they're all the same thing, hit your target, learn to point shoot, you'll be a lot better off because it's faster and you don't have to be "square" with your target.

Can I ask what your credentials are to provide "tactical" advice such as this are?

To be honest I'm tempted to hang out the "Don't Feed the Trolls" sign on this guy.

-Jenrick