Practical tactics with AR... how do you train?

[CGRifleman]

I use an AR15 as my primary home defense weapon. I put plenty of rounds through it, but due to restrictions most ranges have, it's usually more like plinking than actual defensive training.
I'm looking for some simple, commonly effective tactics that I can do at a typical range... defensive carbine courses look like fun, but most of them seem geared toward the LE/operator crowd and not for basic home defense.
How do you train with your rifle?

 

[benEzra]

Look around for local ranges that do USPSA/IDPA/3-gun style carbine matches. My local range does USPSA, and once a month they have a match that allows the use of carbines in lieu of pistols. It is a lot of fun, and will also expose the areas where your skills and gear need more attention. Range to target for most stages is between 3 and 25 yards, definitely HD distance. 3-gun matches tend to emphasize longer shots more, but will still offer plenty of opportunity to shoot at HD distance.

As to what skills to practice, there are good civilian-focused defensive carbine courses out there, and I'm sure other THR members can chime in with recommendations for a good civilian-focused carbine course.

In the meantime you could also check out this book, which despite the military-focused title is very focused on the basics of gun handling and close-range shooting, or perhaps check out this set (I don't own it but have heard good things about it).

Also, an Airsoft gun that is a reasonably close analogue of your carbine can be a handy practice tool as well, particularly if you want to evaluate sight lines and such in your home.

 

[9mmepiphany]

There are classes which offer exactly what you are looking for...basically running a carbine in a CQB (for a long gun) environment.

Without your location, it is difficult for anyone to offer suggestion of trainers.

I'm taking a class in June called Close Quarter Defensive Rifle http://dftraining.net/index.php?dft=dft_course_rifle

 

[Jeff White]

You will get everything you need in a carbine course from any of the tier one instructors. Just because they seem geared towards LE doesn't mean they aren't applicable to a private citizen who plans on using a carbine for his primary weapon.

You don't need to invest in a lot of tactical webbing or things like that for most courses a couple spare magazines and a way to carry them on your person will suffice.

You will learn the marksmanship, manipulation and mindset that you need to use your carbine in a fight.

 

[JustinJ]

I'm not knocking training by any means but is a carbine course really that applicable for a HD rifle? Aside from developing muscle memory to ensure you don't fumble the safety and maybe the charging handle/bolt if its kept unchambered, how much of a carbine course will really transfer to a realistic HD situation?

 

[Jeff White]

What do you think you will do in a home defense situation that won't be covered in a carbine course?

You aren't going to learn tactics on the square range in a carbine course, you're going to learn to run the gun which is what you will do in any fight. Transition from carbine to pistol probably isn't going to be applicable in your home, shooting from longer ranges isn't going to be applicable, except it will give you confidence.

Building the muscle memory to manipulate your weapon is very important. It's what you will need when you are awakened at 0245 from REM sleep and find you have to use your weapon.

You may think that you know your weapon now. And maybe you do. But unless you have used it enough to develop muscle memory you will probably fumble around at 0245, in the dark with your mind fuzzy from being awakened from a sound sleep.

Maybe you are one of the minority of people who could buy a book or a video and learn how to efficiently manipulate your weapon from looking at pictures or watching videos. Most people have to learn those things from an instructor who can make on the spot corrections. And most people have to practice those techniques enough so they do develop muscle memory. You aren't going to get enough repetitions to develop muscle memory in a 2 or 3 day carbine class, but you will get a start. And most importantly you will learn to do it right when you practice on your own. You will know what the right moves feel like.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm not knocking training by any means but is a carbine course really that applicable for a HD rifle? Aside from developing muscle memory to ensure you don't fumble the safety and maybe the charging handle/bolt if its kept unchambered, how much of a carbine course will really transfer to a realistic HD situation?

Since I haven't attended one yet, I can't really answer this with a lot of accuracy, but I think I can extrapolate from my experience with handgun and shotgun courses I have taken.

As Fred has posted, you might be in that very small minority who can actually learn by reading descriptions and watching videos, but most people cannot. There are usually subtleties which aren't obvious to an observer and which are left unexplained by the writer/demonstrator...and like any reflection, is a bit more pale.

Techniques are easily demonstrated and attempted to be copied without understanding the dynamics involved. An easy example is the Thumbs Forward grip. Many people point there thumbs forward without understanding the pressure vectors involved. What they end up with is a Thumbs Up grip with the thumbs pointing forward...which completely negates the advantages of the original grip. I never understood until I took a class and was shown how much faster I could shoot accurately with the correct dynamics.

In my upcoming class, I'm hoping to have demonstrated the most efficient techniques to run my carbine and have explained why they are the most efficient. I'm hoping it covers everything from where to place sling mounts and other things on the handrail to the most efficient reloading techniques.

I'm attending with 7 friends some that we will all be on the same page when we practice the techniques at our home range...and hopefully be able to correct each other's techniques when we get sloppy

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by JustinJ: Aside from developing muscle memory to ensure you don't fumble the safety and maybe the charging handle/bolt if its kept unchambered, how much of a carbine course will really transfer to a realistic HD situation?

From what I've seen, important facets addressed in a good course include where and how to hold the carbine to enable the defender to quickly engage attackers in different direction in extremely close quarters and how to keep the weapon from being taken away or diverted.

 

[Fred Fuller]

is a carbine course really that applicable for a HD rifle? Aside from developing muscle memory to ensure you don't fumble the safety and maybe the charging handle/bolt if its kept unchambered, how much of a carbine course will really transfer to a realistic HD situation?

Running the gun/manipulation, reloads, clearing malfunctions etc

Weapon retention

Shooting at night/low light with weaponlight or handheld flashlight

Engaging close range targets with a weapon which has a high LOS (line of sight) above the bore, proper zero etc

Shooting from cover, strong side and weak side, rollover prone for shooting under low cover, etc.

And so on. Plus you get to do all of the above under a certain amount of pressure, and under the experienced watchful eye of an instructor who can help you fix problems you didn't even know you had.

I'd say it's worth it ...

 

[strambo]

What Fred said. Everything is applicable. How is a LE officer or soldier engaging threats in a house different from you engaging threats in your house?

The environment is the same. The only difference is the LE/military aren't alone and can employ team tactics. At the individual level, the skill needs are the same. Attend the carbine course.

 

[waterhouse]

I've taken several classes that were for law enforcement only.

I'd guess 80-90% of rounds fired in these classes are inside of 25 yards. The shooting and gun manipulation techniques taught at these classes would apply to home defense use of a carbine.

 

[henschman]

Yes, a carbine course would be the best thing you could do. For things you can work on yourself, I'd say do a lot of mag drills, practice clearing stoppages, and practice shooting from cover. Your smartest bet in a home invasion is to hunker down behind some cover or concealment, wait for them to come to you, then give them rounds to center mass until they are down.

 

[Jenrick]

A good carbine course will teach you most importantly how to manipulate the weapon system to ensure accurate quick hits. Secondly it will teach you how to manipulate the weapon system to ensure it continues to run or fix it if it goes down. Additionally a good instructor will teach you proper habits, as well as good drills you can use in your own training to refine and enhance your skills.

I will say that there is very little out there that you can't pick up from either the net or books and DVD's. However how quickly or easily you can do this is up to you as a person. If you have a solid foundation in carbine work then learning this way is MUCH easier then trying to do it from scratch.

If taking a class if just not something you can/want to do I recommend using any of the various carbine standards floating around on the net to practice. Singles from the low ready, multi-round engagements from the low ready, etc.

If you happen to be in Texas (particularly central) shoot me a PM.

-Jenrick

 

[Pizzapinochle]

What Fred said. Everything is applicable. How is a LE officer or soldier engaging threats in a house different from you engaging threats in your house?

I think the main difference would be that LE/Military are being taught how to be the aggressor and pursue/search a house for a threat.

If I am in an HD situation, I am not going to pursue the threat. I am going to defend what needs defending (for most people, their life and the life of their family), but I am not going to place myself at additional risk and pursue the threat if that is not necessary.

LE and military do things that place themselves at higher risk (moving from room to room, etc.) to accomplish a goal (capture a suspect, etc.). A civilian in HD does not have that same goal, so the tactics are different.

Obviously there is a lot of good techniques in the LE/Military style of training and it wouldn't hurt, but the techniques emphasized in a HD course should focus on different goals than an LE/Military course.

 

[Jeff White]

Pizzapinochle,
Have you ever been to a carbine course? You aren't going to learn tactics on a square range in any carbine course. You are going to learn a lot of two legs of the combat triad (mindset, marksmanship, manipulation), marksmanship and manipulation. You will get a little mindset

Tactics such as team exercises and moving from room to room are taught in other courses and require a shoot house and other more advanced training facilities and equipment.

In a basic carbine class you are going to learn to shoot and manipulate your weapon. You might get a little shooting while moving. You are not going to stack outside a door and move as a member of a team from room to room clearing a building.

Everything you will learn in a basic carbine class is as applicable to a private citizen who has chosen the carbine to defend his home as it is to the soldier or police officer.

You may think that those manipulation skills aren't applicable to the homeowner who's plan is to hunker down in the safe room with his carbine (which is a good plan by the way) but you would be wrong. At 0230 with adrenaline pumping through you after being suddenly awakened, you are likely to ind that AR that you thought was so handy on the range, strangely unfamiliar as you contemplate using it.

I saw this all the time with police officers who most likely only handled their long weapons (carbines and shotguns) a couple times a year for familiarization and qualification. Things like magazine releases and selector switches were suddenly unfamiliar as the pressure of a timed exercise were added.

You need the familiarity that you will get from the multiple manipulations of your weapon in a carbine course.

 

[Pizzapinochle]

I unfortunately have not been to a carbine course... hopefully soon.

But I agree with you in all respects from my theoretical knowledge.

I was just answering this question:

"How is a LE officer or soldier engaging threats in a house different from you engaging threats in your house? "

But I did not mean to connect that to a particular course/training program.

For a range course focusing on the skills you said most carbine classes cover, I can't think of a significant difference between LE and civilian skills. Maybe the "mindset" portion, but like you said, that is going to be a minor part of the course.

 

[JustinJ]

To clarify, i'm not implying that a carbine course has no value in HD. One with very little experience or exposure certainly could gain large benefit. However, I guess what I wonder is if there is a rapidly diminishing return on investment for one who already has familiarity with the selected carbine and its operation. One doesn't need a carbine course to develop the muscle memory of flicking off the safety switch before firing the gun. In fact, taking a carbine course will not develop such. Rather, repetition will. Also, let's be honest, its not difficult to make center of mass hits at HD distances with a carbine. Might the rounds land 1.5" lower if they don't account for line of sight? Sure, but is such really a big deal when we're talking rifle rounds at close distance? Might the carbine course help them to be a split second faster? The real benefit, as I see it from my admittedly limited perspective, is that a carbine course may help one learn to better operate his carbine under a stressful situation. However, if such stress can not be simulated regularly during practice, will experiencing it for one weekend really translate to a future real world scenario? Again, I have no doubt that a carbine course can make one much better with a carbine. I just don't know that said improvements are likely to ever be the determining factor between prevailing in a HD scenario. How often is it that a person fails in a HD scenario in which he would have otherwise prevailed had he taken a carbine course? A handgun course, on the other hand, seems to have a far greater chance of being a determining factor in one's ability to succeed in a HD scenario. For most people i suspect there is far more room for improvement with the use of a handgun in realistic civilian type self defense scenarios than with a carbine. A handgun course also translates to better defense outside the home. As such, it seems to me that the return on investment of handgun courses greatly outweighs those of carbine courses. I suppose thought that if a person doesn't carry outside the home and will only use a carbine for HD then a carbine course is the better option but even then might a general HD class be better option, at least first?

 

[Jeff White]

Justin,
Have you had any professional training in running your carbine? I had over 20 years experience with the M16 in the Army (using and teaching in the Infantry) when I took my first carbine class. I thought I knew the system. I was astounded at what I didn't know.

I learned many more efficient ways of doing things that I had done for years. Yes it was hard retraining my muscle memory to do some things differently then I had for 20 years but it was worth it.

I still try to take a basic carbine class from a tier one instructor every year even though I have been teaching a law enforcement patrol rifle class for years. The chance to train under the watchful eye of a good instructor makes me a better shooter and a better trainer.

 

[JustinJ]

Jeff, no, I haven't. As I've said, I have no doubt that a carbine course can improve one's abilities with said weapon. My posts though are pertaining to how much value those improvements provide in realistic home defense scenarios. For example, if one's strategy in a HD scenario is to stay put in their bedroom with gun trained on the door while awaiting arrival of LE, is something like support hand placement going to really make any difference in the outcome if they are forced to shoot? If one does decide to clear the house or must get to another room to protect family, I suppose weapon retention, as Kleanbore mentioned, could become very important. But when it comes to marksmanship and weapon manipulation against civilian criminals at HD distances, i'm just wondering if there isn't a rapidly degrading degree of advantage provided beyond the basics. Now if we're talking about use of carbine beyond HD, such as used by LE, military, defense contractors, the I have no doubt that a higher level of skill can be the deciding factor in outcomes. Ultimately, what i'm asking is this: if one is going to invest time and money in training for HD, is a carbine course really the best option for maximum return on investment?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Ultimately, what i'm asking is this: if one is going to invest time and money in training for HD, is a carbine course really the best option for maximum return on investment?

I guess the answer would depend on what the alternative would be.

I haven't

Having not taken any training, I would suggest that Jeff's experience, after 20 years of experience with a carbine, should lead you to believe that there might be answers to questions you aren't even aware of yet.

it seems to me that the return on investment of handgun courses greatly outweighs those of carbine courses.

I don't disagree with this. It depends on which platform you intend to use to defensively in your home.

Many folks that are quite skilled with a handgun will recommend that you use a carbine for home defense, if the layout of the interior of your home lends itself to it. If your interior is more a rabbit warren...maybe not.

I will say that it takes a higher skill level to be as effective with a handgun defensively

 

[Jeff White]

Justin,
We all have to make decisions on what kind of training and how much is right for our particular situation. Even tier one military units have budgets. Professional training is not inexpensive.

If I planned on using my carbine as the primary home defense weapon then I would concentrate my training dollars on that system. If you carry a handgun daily you might want to look at spending your training dollars there.

Only you can make that call.

Police officers train with their handguns much more then they train with their long guns and it shows on the range. So if you carry a handgun daily and train with it, and you don't have the time and money to train with your carbine, then maybe you should just plan on making your handgun the home defense weapon.

 

[JustinJ]

Jeff, pertaining specifically to HD scenarios, do you feel that there are realistic scenarios in which the improvement in skills from the carbine course would ever actually be a determining factor in the outcome. Granted, you started with military training so somebody without such may very well have much more room for improvement.

Regarding training options than handgun or carbine, there are also general defense and home defense courses that cover many other facets than just use of firearms.

 

[Jeff White]

Justin,
The big thing that you are going to learn in a carbine course that will help you in your safe room is manipulating the weapon.

I don't know how you store your carbine. Magazine in the well, round in the chamber, safety on? Magazine in the well, chamber empty, safety on (cruiser ready)? Unloaded, magazine stored with the weapon?

Unless you are going to film an action adventure movie, the chance of having to reload in your home defense scenario is pretty slim, but (there is always a but) you could have a malfunction. Or you could have inserted the magazine and it didn't catch the last time you stored your carbine. Then at the very instant you need to make that shot, you press the trigger and it goes click.

In a carbine course you will start picking up the manipulation techniques that will help you avoid this. The Army used to teach slapping the magazine in. In reality this didn't always allow the magazine to seat. In the first class I took, I learned to insert the magazine with a push/pull motion that let me know immediately if the magazine was in fact seated and high enough to actually load a round.

Now I realize that doesn't sound like some profound new technique. But it is. If you aren't inserting your magazines with a push/pull technique you will eventually have one that's not locked in and it won't load a round. You may be thinking, "Ok Jeff just told me about push/pull, saved me a thousand or so, thanks."

The reality is, if you have been inserting your magazines some other way you will default to doing it the way you always have. You need to train yourself to do it the new way. You need someone to correct you. That's what you get in class.

In class you will learn how to shoot from indoor ready. Sure you can look at indoor ready in a book or on a video, but it's not the same as someone versed in the position helping you learn in right.

You also gong to know what to do to get your weapon back in action if it does go click when you want it to go bang.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg. Training with a professional instructor will make you better no matter how you use your carbine.

 

[Al Thompson]

Got to echo Jeff on this one. First time I shot an M16 for qual was in 1976, last time was in 2008. Had my first Carbine class in 2009 and was astounded at what I didn't know and what the Army had not taught me.

Know how to verify that your AR is loaded even at 0200 in the morning in pitch black? Good course will show you at least one way that will work.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Might the rounds land 1.5" lower if they don't account for line of sight? Sure, but is such really a big deal when we're talking rifle rounds at close distance?

2.6" under 15yds and if you are using any kind of cover, forgetting your sight offset in a high stress situation can absolutely be a big deal. I've seen (and done it myself) enough wood barriers perforated by guys who were well-trained and forgot their sight offset not to dismiss it lightly. If that were say, the hood of a vehicle or a concrete retaining wall, that could be a nasty reminder.