Practice what you carry...so why not carry FMJ?

[ATLDave]

You need to practice and be proficient with what you shoot!

I have yet to meet the person who is actually proficient with their gun and one type of full-power ammo who is not proficient with another type. I am highly skeptical there is any such creature.

 

[BSA1]

Read Massad Ayoob, he'll tell you why it's a bad idea better than I can. And he has LE street cred as well as expert witness cred in actual court cases.

Ayoob was/is a Part-Time RESERVE police officer.

In my area Reserve Police Officers usually work at events such as football games, concerts, parades for traffic control. Some may do ride along with regular officers as back-up. In general they rarely are involved in high risk situations and making arrests.

I saw a picture of Ayoob in uniform showing Captain bars on his collar promoting something of his. (I think it was a book.) Impressive except few people realize that Captains are administrators not street cops. In the departments my area a Reserve Captain is responsible for trying to arrange having enough officers to cover events. He/she is usually someone with a lot of spare time on their hands.

When Ayoob did most of his writing the Internet did not exist so it was not possible to publicly disagree him as the gun rags would not publish rebuttals. Gun rags then as now purpose is to make a profit not to always publish true facts. With the Internet we now know some of his opinions are not correct.

Anyway I understand Ayoob is a member of THR so he can come defend his position.

The question remains unanswered is what court case did use of handload ammunition play a major role in the juries decision to find the defendant guilty?

(I am not talking about someone like in the movie Taxi Driver where the person made mercury tipped hollow point bullets in his workshop.)

 

[ATLDave]

IIRC, Ayoob cites to one case in which the defendant had used handloaded ammunition, and then was precluded from relying on ballistics testing (such as powder stippling testing) to confirm his story about distances. The court there apparently determined that it had no way of being sure that the ammo being submitted for testing was the same as the ammo used in the incident. That's my (perhaps incorrect) recollection of the case, anyway. I am happy to be corrected if my memory is faulty.

 

[TomJ]

Ayoob was/is a Part-Time RESERVE police officer.

In my area Reserve Police Officers usually work at events such as football games, concerts, parades for traffic control. Some may do ride along with regular officers as back-up. In general they rarely are involved in high risk situations and making arrests.

I saw a picture of Ayoob in uniform showing Captain bars on his collar promoting something of his. (I think it was a book.) Impressive except few people realize that Captains are administrators not street cops. In the departments my area a Reserve Captain is responsible for trying to arrange having enough officers to cover events. He/she is usually someone with a lot of spare time on their hands.

When Ayoob did most of his writing the Internet did not exist so it was not possible to publicly disagree him as the gun rags would not publish rebuttals. Gun rags then as now purpose is to make a profit not to always publish true facts. With the Internet we now know some of his opinions are not correct.

Anyway I understand Ayoob is a member of THR so he can come defend his position.

The question remains unanswered is what court case did use of handload ammunition play a major role in the juries decision to find the defendant guilty?

(I am not talking about someone like in the movie Taxi Driver where the person made mercury tipped hollow point bullets in his workshop.)

Spats McGee addresses your questions in the article that's referenced in post 22. I do reload but can't say one way or another whether someone has or will be found guilty because they used their reloads for SD, but I can see how it can complicate your defense. For $25 per box, I carry HST's. They're effective, inexpensive and I avoid the possibility of it being an issue if I ever have to use my gun for SD.

 

[GEM]

I suggest before we replay the old 'show me the case' melody, the readers refer to https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=588065
which has summaries of the issues - some of which are from our own staff and repeated here. The url is just convenient.

The common argument against FMJ is that of overpenetration and we do see that happening. The mantra of show me the case has been discussed into the ground as a fundamentally naive view of court and jury proceses (as covered in the above). The overarching issue is that presentation issues (looks, equipment, utterances, etc. can influence juries) in the totality of their decision making as seen in gun cases and many other legal cases. There are books and articles documenting that in the professional literature. No case is decided by one factor alone. Your decision is whether you want a risk factor in your case if you are on trial. Focusing on Ayoob alone is not doing your due diligence of the issue. He knows his stuff but his word is not alone in vacuum. There is much confirming research and cases on the appearance effects at trial.

"If it is a good shoot" is another BS cliche as if you are on trial, it is already not a good shoot. Since we have many SD cases that do go to trial, to assume that your local prosecutors will automatically give you a ticker tape parade for your good shoot is not a good assumption.

 

[TomJ]

Trials don't happen in a vacuum. Juries are made up of people who bring their beliefs and prejudices with them. Those prejudices are going to be different based on where you're located. What may not be an issue in the rural part of a red state may be very prejudicial against you in an urban area of a blue state. If you ever find yourself in the unfortunate position of being the defendant in a criminal or civil trial, the smart thing to do is to not make it more difficult for your attorney to defend you. Over penetration may not be questioned in a rural area due to the decreased likelyhood of hitting someone, but I expect it's more likely to be an issue in a more crowded area, such as the Chicago area, where I live.

 

[ATLDave]

OTOH, I think the chances of most urban jurors being able to accept that "exploding"/expanding hollow-point bullets are actually safer for bystanders because of their tendency to stay in the target is pretty low. Jurors can fixate on all kinds of odd things, and whiff on fairly basic stuff... other than not having skulls and whatnot on your gun, it's a little tough to predict how they're going to feel about any particular technical issue.

 

[TomJ]

OTOH, I think the chances of most urban jurors being able to accept that "exploding"/expanding hollow-point bullets are actually safer for bystanders because of their tendency to stay in the target is pretty low. Jurors can fixate on all kinds of odd things, and whiff on fairly basic stuff... other than not having skulls and whatnot on your gun, it's a little tough to predict how they're going to feel about any particular technical issue.

You're right that it's hard to predict, which is why if your ammunition is an issue at trial, it's not a bad idea to allow your attorney to make the argument that you're using what law enforcement commonly uses. It's not a guarantee that it'll put the issue to rest, but at least your attorney can make the argument that you haven't acted irresponsibly in choosing your ammo.

 

[ATLDave]

Sounds sensible. Of course, if you get folks on the jury who are anti-law enforcement, this may not go the way you want.

I'm not a criminal lawyer, but I have picked a jury or two. Trying to predict how they will react to a technical matter when even you don't know the context is pretty challenging.

 

[TomJ]

Sounds sensible. Of course, if you get folks on the jury who are anti-law enforcement, this may not go the way you want.

I'm not a criminal lawyer, but I have picked a jury or two. Trying to predict how they will react to a technical matter when even you don't know the context is pretty challenging.

Agreed. This is an issue where there are no absolutes, as people are involved. The best you can do is stack the deck in your favor for surviving a SD scenario as well as it's aftermath.

 

[huntsman]

For $25 per box, I carry HST's. They're effective, inexpensive and I avoid the possibility of it being an issue if I ever have to use my gun for SD.

Will you continue to do so if price structure changes?

 

[TomJ]

Will you continue to do so if price structure changes?

Yes. Even if prices increases considerably, I know the guns I carry function with them, and to spend $50, $75 or what ever they increase to once a year or so is worth it to me.

 

[cheygriz]

Ayoob was/is a Part-Time RESERVE police officer.

In my area Reserve Police Officers usually work at events such as football games, concerts, parades for traffic control. Some may do ride along with regular officers as back-up. In general they rarely are involved in high risk situations and making arrests.

In my old department, reserve officers performed the same duties as regular officers, and had the same training and FTO evaluations.



I saw a picture of Ayoob in uniform showing Captain bars on his collar promoting something of his. (I think it was a book.) Impressive except few people realize that Captains are administrators not street cops. In the departments my area a Reserve Captain is responsible for trying to arrange having enough officers to cover events. He/she is usually someone with a lot of spare time on their hands.

Again, our reserve sergeants, captains, etc did administer the reserves, but also worked the same minimum required hours on the street as all of the other reserves (40 hours per month)

When Ayoob did most of his writing the Internet did not exist so it was not possible to publicly disagree him as the gun rags would not publish rebuttals. Gun rags then as now purpose is to make a profit not to always publish true facts. With the Internet we now know some of his opinions are not correct.

Anyway I understand Ayoob is a member of THR so he can come defend his position.

The question remains unanswered is what court case did use of handload ammunition play a major role in the juries decision to find the defendant guilty?

(I am not talking about someone like in the movie Taxi Driver where the person made mercury tipped hollow point bullets in his workshop.)

I simply cannot understand why anyone would take legal advice from keyboard commandos in gunrags or on the internet when it conflicts with the advice of professional attorneys.

 

[C0untZer0]

The RM380 is probably the most underrated gun out there.

Somehow people seem to think that issues with the R51 taint the RM380.

I wish they hadn't messed with the Rohrbaugh's design at all, but my 2 RM380s run like champs - no malfunctions. I paid $99.99 for my second RM380, its the best handgun bargain ever.

I have them loaded with Precision One's loading of the XTP. I practice with whatever cheap FMJ I can find.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I don't understand the argument for FMJ carry.

1. If your gun is only reliable with FMJ, you should carry a different gun. The sheer variety of modern guns that are reliable with JHP ammunition boggles the mind. We live in a paradise of choice for concealed-carry firearms, and most of them are reliable.

2. It's true that JHP ammunition, even the best designs, don't always expand. But it is totally irrational to conclude from that fact that FMJ is just as good. Sometimes JHP ammunition fails to expand. In that case, it performs similarly to FMJ ammunition. However, FMJ ammo never expands. So how does it make sense to pick ammunition that never expands over ammunition that usually does?

Further, take a look at the ammunition purchases of law enforcement, the only field in which end users shoot other people on something approximately a regular basis and in which end users have control over their ammunition selection. I don't think you could find a single law enforcement agency not using JHP ammunition for handguns. This is not an appeal to authority, it's an appeal to the collective experience of the only community in the country with regular experience shooting human beings with handguns.

3. Bullet design has no impact on the recoil characteristics of a firearm, and at handgun shooting ranges, any impact on its ballistic travel characteristics is negligible at best. Further, there is plenty of FMJ ammunition for practice that deliberately mimics the shooting characteristics of virtually any JHP carry load.

4. The cost of a couple boxes of carry ammunition is substantially more than the cost of the same amount of FMJ ammunition, but is also negligible compared to the cost of all other accessories. Two fifty-round boxes of Federal HST, which could be enough for two years or more of carry ammunition, can be had for $50. The gun carrying them was probably about $500, and decent holsters are another $50 minimum.

With that in mind, why is $50 for good ammunition a deal-breaking expense? Buying FMJ ammo instead only gets you another 100-150 rounds of ammunition.

 

[jmorris]

I’ll start by saying I have never shot at much less hit any human with any pistol I have carried but have killed a number of things with a sidearm. It’s not uncommon at all for me to carry a handgun with one shot round followed by solids that are FMJ, plated, coated or cast. So much so I have developed my own for pistols that no one else has ever offered.

To the premise of the OP, you can practice with any shape bullet and gain proficiency. All you need to ensure is that your chosen firearm will function 100% with the type of ammunition you have in it when you might need it.

 

[P5 Guy]

...you're using what law enforcement commonly uses. It's not a guarantee that it'll put the issue to rest, but at least your attorney can make the argument that you haven't acted irresponsibly in choosing your ammo.

Wouldn't that lead to 'Wanna Be Cop' syndrome?

 

[TomJ]

Wouldn't that lead to 'Wanna Be Cop' syndrome?

That never crossed my mind. If someone wants to think that, so be it.

 

[BSA1]

As discussed criminal charges do not happen in a vacuum. Good points being made but there are other things to be considered.

First consider the human body. A bullet that meets the FBI criteria for 12 - 18" of penetration is probably going to pass completely through if it hits thinner areas of the body such as a arm or side of the torso. It is certainly well beyond my skill level to put every shot I fire exactly in the body of every human being I may encounter where it will not over penetrate (assuming of course that I am using a serious caliber cartridge).

Second is the social media, discussion forums and the Internet.

Social media - Simple posts on Facebook are destroying a lot of lives and careers. Look at what has happened this past week over wearing blackface as part of Halloween costume. Any prosecutor worth their salt is going to research your social media comments. Lord help you if the anti-gun media gets ahold of anything that might be the least bit juicy.

Discussion forums - Very good points are being made on this thread along about the advantages of using commercial ammunition made to SAAMI industry standards and backed up by extensive testing. To sit on the witness stand and tell a jury that the despite taking part in such discussions and knowing the advantages of commercial self-defense ammunition you choose FMJ solely to save yourself .70, $1.00 or even $1.50 is not someplace I want to be.

The Internet - Very good and very bad information is available on the Internet. Suppose the prosecutor seizes your computer and looks at your saved documents and search history.

Juries - Good comments about juries. I sat on one in a civil trial and, frankly it was downright scary. One juror was a school teacher and hard core liberal. She announced her position as soon as we walked into the room and two days of discussions could not get her to change her mind. If you have someone like that on your jury the best outcome you can hopeful is a hung jury which means you are probably going to be retried.

Me. I carry factory ammunition designed for and marketed for self-defense. The extra .52+ cents a round cost is money well spent in my books.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Social media - Simple posts on Facebook are destroying a lot of lives and careers. Look at what has happened this past week over wearing blackface as part of Halloween costume. Any prosecutor worth their salt is going to research your social media comments. Lord help you if the anti-gun media gets ahold of anything that might be the least bit juicy.

That's totally the truth. For darn sure mouths and keyboards will get more people in trouble than ammunition choice will.

 

[Zendude]

Semiautos can be picky, especially small ones. Shoot 100 rounds of hollow points with your weak hand to find out for sure.

 

[WoodchuckAssassin]

This created more of a conversation than I thought it would. Just one more thing to love about THR!

After biting the bullet, so to speak, I bought several types of hollowpoint/FMJ ammo and hit the range. Many of you were right about my cheapness getting the better of me, and I found a round that my gun loves and seems to preform well in online videos and the like (Winchester 147 gr. T&D ammo). I am going to buy some of the HST that everyone seems to love, and I doubt my CZ will dislike it if it's quality ammo.

Another aspect that everyone seems to agree on is the over penetration of FMJ (something I grossly overrated) and the collateral damage it may cause. I try not to think about the "lawyer-side" of keeping myself safe...but it's a very real aspect of CC. As always, good information.

 

[mdauben]

Many short barreled (<3 inches) auto loaders are picky eaters, so is there any great sin in carrying FMJ for personal protection?

I would simply not carry an auto for SD that would not reliably handle JHP ammo. My only "short" barrel SD semiautos are a Glock 36 and a Ruger LC9s, and both handle my JHP of choice just fine. The only exception I might make would be .25 or .32 cal mouse guns, but I don't carry either for just that reason.

It just seems like someone can shoot a lot more ammo at .18 cents a round vs the .50+ cents for a quality hollow point, so where is the line between expansion performance and ammo reliability?

I have no problem doing 90% of my practice with FMJ ammo of the same weight as my JHP carry ammo. I will still shoot a magazine or two of FMJ every once in a while.

My own feeling is that I'd rather run a couple rounds of fmj and KNOW that they will cycle reliable, vs a percent of that number of rounds in expensive hollow points. Crazy? Maybe, but I'm curious what you all think. As always, thank you for your thoughts.

I won't carry a gun until I've shot at least 200 rounds of FMJ and 50 rounds of JHP through it to confirm the reliability. I know some people insist on even more rounds before they are confident in a new gun.

 

[RA40]

Another part to this which is a strong consideration is the known reliability and reputation of the firearm considered. M&P, Glock...etc tend to be options where they run a wide range of ammunition well. The magazines work and so on. With mainstream options, running JHP isn't as much a test to see if it works or not.

I run HST's to refresh myself on their characteristics periodically. They shoot similar to the CCI Lawman that I practice with so I don't feel to far out of the loop if I've not cycled them with regularity. The +P variants would be different and I only have a few stray boxes to see-feel how those are. I don't have any of those loaded up for SD.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Wouldn't that lead to 'Wanna Be Cop' syndrome?

That never crossed my mind. If someone wants to think that, so be it.

All you'd have to point out is that you were basing your selection on the extensive testing and evaluation conducted by a professional agency...it isn't a negative, it's a positive