Primers for 500 S&W Mag

[tom unler]

Greetings all.
Yesterday I took out my new 4" 500 S&W Mag. Remarkably, the recoil wasn't as punishing as I anticipated, but the muzzle flash was intense. Indication of inefficient powder burn. Ragged hole accuracy at 21 ft.

I had a spooky squib load where the bullet reached the forcing cone and stopped. I managed to open the action and easily remove the projectile, but I discovered the powder was completely unburned. I have never seen this before. No chance there was a light charge, since I only loaded a small batch and I visually triple checked every round to ensure complete uniformity. (I suspect a bad primer in this particular round)

I am using 350 Gr Plated bullets, 39 Gr of WW-296 in new Starline brass with WW Large Rifle Primers. I strongly suspect I need to go to a MAG Primer

I have seen some data where Magnum primers are recommended. This particular load has no mention of a Mag Primer.

What primer seems to give the best results?

 

[KMRRA]

i TOO AM NEW TO THE 500 BUT MINE IS AN 8 3/8 BARREL ....I dout very seriously that you will see a difference in using a magnum primer , after all you are burning 40 + grains in a 4 inch barrel. I know this is not much help but it just my 2 cents . I have been reloading for more than 40 years and of all the guns that I load for I have had more hell with the 500 than anything , unless you own every reloading manual that they publish loading data is sparse, especially if you use cast bullets I bought a box of 250 here while back that their is no loading data for at all , so it trial and era time

 

[gotboostvr]

I've used LRP with great success in my 4" 500mag, although I use unique pushing a 560gr WFNGC boolit.

Me and a buddy were both surprised that recoil was much more tolerable than expected even with full tilt factory loads.

My load of unique is pretty stout, but muzzle flash isn't nearly as pronounced as with factory loads.

 

[Cheesemaker]

I tend towards Large Rifle Mag primers in my 460 S&W...it has always worked well for me using H110.
Not sure that is your issue. Any signs of the plating coming off the bullets?
Reloading techniques consistent to ensure no "powder miss/empty case"?

Big muzzle flash is to be expected - this is a big round, short'ish barrel. Compensator - lol.

Edit - I have 8 3/8" 460 S&W.

 

[Grumulkin]

Yes, use large rifle primers but the primer isn't your problem. The load is too light. Smokeless powder only burns well when the pressure is optimal and you apparently didn't get there. Your squib is additional testimony to this. The most a large rifle primer will do is give you the equivalent of maybe 1 to 1.5 grains of powder.

 

[Reloadron]

I had a spooky squib load where the bullet reached the forcing cone and stopped. I managed to open the action and easily remove the projectile, but I discovered the powder was completely unburned.

Went to that Rodeo. It was loading 257 Weatherby Mag and while I forget the powder it was spooky. Pulled a few bullets and dumped the powder and the powder around the primer was a discolored clump but while the primers did detonate the powder never actually lit off.

WW296 is a ball powder and while I am not going to say good ignition of ball powders requires a magnum primer figure it this way. Using a magnum primer sure can't hurt anything. Matter of fact Hornady calls out a WLR primer. If we assume the powder was known good powder and dry (no moisture) a WLR should work. That saiod it won't hurt to use a WLRM or other large rifle magnum primer. As always start low and work up.

I also like the response in post #5 and that is a good point.

Just My Take
Ron

 

[snuffy]

I am using 350 Gr PLATED BULLETS, 39 Gr of WW-296 in new Starline brass with WW Large Rifle Primers. I strongly suspect I need to go to a MAG Primer

I suspect 2 things, the plated bullets,(no crimp groove), and a light powder charge. According to my load data info, 39.0 grains of WW-296 Is the starting load for XTP 350 grain JACKETED bullets. Jacketed is harder, more difficult to move and most have crimping grooves/cannelures for a firm crimp.

The thin plating on those plated bullets and the soft core, don't allow much crimp. So the bullet moves when the primer detonates before the powder can light to begin building pressure. I didn't check powder fill with 39 grains of 296, but I'd bet it only half fills the case. This too can cause ignition problems if the powder slants forward in the case.

If somebody gave me a 4" 500, I'd call Smith to see if they could replace that stub with the longest barrel they have with their muzzle brake. I hate to see any magnum revolver short stroked with a tiny barrel.

If the recoil bothers you or the muzzle flash, use a faster powder. My favorite for reduced loads is Longshot. It's a mid range powder, but not capable of true magnum performance.

21 FEET??!! Back off to give it some breathing room. One hole accuracy at that range proves absolutely nothing.

 

[50 Shooter]

I would have to say the powder was bad or contaminated by something. Were these your loads or someone else's? If someone else's I would say that they got something in the case that caused a partial burn of the powder.

If your loads, you need to think of what might've got in the case, maybe some sprayed on case lube? A piece of corncob stuck in the primer pocket? Combination of both or something else?

I've never had to use magnum primers in my large caliber pistols, 454 and 500 and both have always run without issue.

 

[MEHavey]

Rule #1: H110/W296(same powder) should go w/ a Mag Primer
Rule #2: H110/W296(same powder) should go w/ near max case fill (near max load)
Rule #2: H110/W296(same powder) should go w/ a heavy crImp

Suggestion #1: Go with higher pressure loadout; or Vihtavouri N110 (and/or Hogdon LilGun) as powder
Suggestion #1: Go with a bullet that has a stout crimp groove, and use it.

 

[sugarmaker]

If the bullet is a 350 Berrys It may be getting pulled from the case on recoil. These have a very low crimp groove, are quite smooth and if the case is flared they tend to pull out very easily under recoil, I finf I can't crimp them enough to hold. 296 will not do will under that condition, very likely to get a squib.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

W296 is a slow hard to ignite ball powder which requires a Magnum primer and a heavy roll crimp to properly ignite and burn. It also performer's much better at the top end of the pressure curve. You can not apply a heavy enough crimp with a plated bullet without compressing the plating.

Hodgdon who distributes W296 recommends using a LR Magnum primer with between 39.0gr and 43.0gr W296 with a 350gr Hirnady XTP bullet. I suggest you up your charge, switch to a magnum primer, ditch the plated bullets and apply a heavy roll crimp to your loads. You will see much better results.

BTW, no matter what powder you use, unless it has a flash suppressor added you are going to see a big flash from that much powder from a 4" barrel.

Just a note, take a look at AA1680 for loading the 500 Magnum, especially if you decided to load heavier bullets in tge future.

 

[tom unler]

All very good points, i will try to address the important parts.

1. I was single round shooting, just wanted to get familiar with the gun, no way the bullet could pull.
2. The Berrys 350's have a groove, and my crimp is really substantial, cases were new and no contamination possible.
3. I agree that 39 grains is a minimal load for 296. I will bump my load to 42 grains, increase the crimp a bit and move to a Mag Primer. The case was clearly filled to the base of the bullet, maybe even a little compression involved.
4. The other 35 or so rounds worked flawlessly, but left unburned powder on the bench.
5. 21 feet is about all I could pull off, the indoor range was poorly lighted. Keeping the rounds that tight even at close range shows consistency.
6. Plated rounds seem to be working perfectly, they are marked for use below 2,000 FPS. 42 gr of W-296 get about 1875 fps if I recall....

I think I will move to a quicker powder and try some jacketed rounds.

Thanks for the input, that 500 is a real fun revolver to shoot!

 

[Grumulkin]

The myth that you have to use a magnum primer with ball powders like H110 is, well, just a myth. In using several ball powders including that one, I have NEVER had ignition problems related to the use of a standard primer with ball powders.

Unburned powder is also usually a sign of a load that is too light. In fact, in my personal experience, that has ALWAYS been the cause but I'll grant that someone may have had a different experience.

I'll admit though that I've never shot in Antartica. In very cold weather, maybe a magnum primer would help.

 

[Walkalong]

Plated bullets are not the optimum choice, and a poor choice IMHO, for full power .500 loads. You need a lead, coated lead, or jacketed bullet with a real crimp groove. The plated bullets will work fine with a midrange load using a medium speed powder.

 

[snuffy]

Okay, now we know the rest of the story! The Berrys round shoulder, (which is normally called round-flat nose), has just a suggestion of a cannelure.

https://www.berrysmfg.com/item/bp-50-cal-500-350gr-rs

I have some extreme, (well they are in a west coast box), 357 158 SWC plated bullets that have just such a crimp grove. Not deep enough for much of a crimp at all!? They just cannot go very deep with the cannelure tool, they would penetrate the plating.

Here's a couple of different powder loads with longshot and tight group. Both with the Hornady 350 XTP.
longshot 21.0-1482 fps---start load, col: 1.985,41,400 psi
longshot 23.0-1602 fps---max load, col:1.985, 50,000 psi

tight group 11.0-1032 fps start load, col 1.985, 23,000 psi
tight group 18.5-1461 fps, max load, col 1.985, 50,000 psi

All of the above loads are re-printed from the Hodgdon pistol data manual. The load data website re-prints a lot of powder and bullet companies data, along with time tested loads from the rifle/handloader magazine put out by Wolf publishing. It's a yearly membership IIRC is 25 bucks.

https://www.loaddata.com/

ALL of the loads call for the Winchester large rifle primer. Use of another brand of LR primer MAY not get the powder going quite as good as the Winchester LR. The WW LR is a bit stronger because of the well known fact that ball powder CAN be difficult to ignite. AND most if not all of the Winchester powders are ball powders. Since Hodgdon is just the distributer of the former WW powders, they carry on the use of the WW-LR primer.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The myth that you have to use a magnum primer with ball powders like H110 is, well, just a myth. In using several ball powders including that one, I have NEVER had ignition problems related to the use of a standard primer with ball powders.

Unburned powder is also usually a sign of a load that is too light. In fact, in my personal experience, that has ALWAYS been the cause but I'll grant that someone may have had a different experience.

I'll admit though that I've never shot in Antartica. In very cold weather, maybe a magnum primer would help.

You are of course entitled to your opinion on magnum primers slow ball powders but you really shouldn't give out incorrect information to newer reloaders as if it were fact.

The fact is W296/H110, W540/HS-6, W571/HS-7 and the like benefit greatly from the use of a magnum primer. Under many circumstances will standard primers work, yes but magnum primers will always work better.

Faster ball powders like W231/HP-38, AA#2 and the like don't require magnum primers but the slower ball powders are a different matter.

 

[evtSmtx]

+1 to what gromulkin said I use H-110 in 44 magnum pretty much exclusively. Some load data calls for magnum primers some(ex: Hodgdon) not. So unless Hodgdon is putting out bad load data ...

 

[Cheesemaker]

+1 to what gromulkin said I use H-110 in 44 magnum pretty much exclusively. Some load data calls for magnum primers some(ex: Hodgdon) not. So unless Hodgdon is putting out bad load data ...

The Hodgdon site does call for Large Rifle Magnum primers for the 460 and 500.

 

[evtSmtx]

good golly mr cheesemaker sir, my post right above yours clearly says 44magnum. For anybody who really cares there are plenty of sites that show pix of regular, magnum and match primers so you can see the difference. Plus Hodgdon is not the only source of load data.

 

[Grumulkin]

You are of course entitled to your opinion on magnum primers slow ball powders but you really shouldn't give out incorrect information to newer reloaders as if it were fact.

The fact is W296/H110, W540/HS-6, W571/HS-7 and the like benefit greatly from the use of a magnum primer. Under many circumstances will standard primers work, yes but magnum primers will always work better.

What you need to understand is:

1. A new reloader is not going to get hurt by going against the myth and using a regular primer for a ball powder. Reloading is about experimentation (yea, really). If a load doesn't give satisfactory accuracy, nothing is hurt and something may be gained by trying a different primer.

2. I have plenty of different primers to choose from and have have tried magnum primers with a variety of loads and you know what? I haven't found that magnum primers have ever benifited "greatly" any ball powder I've ever tried (and I've used a number of those as well). Where a magnum primer did benefit greatly was in a 357 Herrett load with IMR 4227 which isn't a ball powder, in which I use CCI 250 large rifle magnum primers.

3. I use H110 in my 500 S&W Magnum with large rifle primers and believe with that cartridge 1.5 inches at 100 yards for 3 shots is OK.

 

[TimSr]

The myth that you have to use a magnum primer with ball powders like H110 is, well, just a myth.

Not really, but is taken out of context and misinterpreted a lot.

H110 is thought of as a magnum pistol powder. When using PISTOL primers as was originally assumed, always select the magnum primer if one is available. If the MFG (Rem, Win) does not offer a specified magnum primer, it means their primer is suitable for standard or magnum applications.

Then these high pressure pistol rounds came along that started using rifle primers to handle the high pressures. H110 is a very slow pistol powder, but rifle primers are made with rifle powders in mind, where 110 is on the opposite end of the spectrum, so standard rifle primers typically burn hotter and longer than magnum pistol primers, so using a "magnum" rifle primer in a pistol powder application is not nearly so critical. There are sometimes benefits from doing so, in low for rifle pressure, straight wall cartridges, so they are often recommended. 110 powder is unique in that the consequences (squibs) of insufficient ignition is a greater risk than the consequences of "over-ignition" (if there is such a thing), so the default position for 110/296 is that you will never be worse off by using the hotter primer.

Handloading does involve a lot of experimentation, but when you are just getting started, I highly advise ONLY loading published loads using ONLY the EXACT components specified, meaning bullets, primer type, and powder until you are confident you know what you are doing. Your first loads are a bad place to be using 3rd party plated bullets and making primer substitutions.

As for the OPs problem, try some name brand bullets specified in the load data, start increasing your charge, crimp firmly in the cannalure, and go with the magnum verison of your primer (if there is one) and your problem will go away.

A new reloader is not going to get hurt by going against the myth and using a regular primer for a ball powder.

Depends on the application, and whether its really needed. Squib never hurt anybody, but what some do after one might.

 

[Grumulkin]

Well, I have nothing against magnum primers and try them frequently. The only thing I always use them in are loads for my 375 H&H Magnum, 458 Lott (of course that's not a magnum), 378 Weatherby and 460 Weatherby. For those cartridges I wouldn't know if other primers are better because the case size seemed to make it imprudent to try them. Sometimes magnum primers make a load better, most of the time they make it no worse and sometimes, including with ball powders, they make a load worse.

By the way, I've never had a squib in loading thousands of rounds and that includes those loaded with H110 and nonmagnum primers.

I know. Myths die hard. It's hard to let go.

 

[buck460XVR]

I suspect it was not any one thing. but the combination of two or more. H110/W296 needs two things for good ignition, a sufficient charge and a heavy crimp. This helps to build early pressure making the powder burn completely. One reason I suspect most folks recommend a magnum primer is to help ignition in the case either of the former two things are not there. While the OPs charge rate was within published specs, the bullet used is probably the culprit, not the primer. Tough to get a firm crimp with a plated bullet, cannelured or not. The lead used in plated bullets is very soft while the plating is harder. A heavy crimp would compress the lead core and loosen it's adhesion to the copper jacket. The copper jacket will spring back a tad where as the soft lead will not. I wonder which round in the cylinder the squib was. I suspect that there may have been some bullet jump from previous rounds fired which help loosen the crimp and significantly lower the pressure.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I just love how people online get so nasty when their opinion is challenged. Seems to be a character flaw of a whole generation. I guess it comes from not being face to face with the person they are "talking" with. What a shame.

 

[TimSr]

By the way, I've never had a squib in loading thousands of rounds and that includes those loaded with H110 and nonmagnum primers.

I suspect it was not any one thing. but the combination of two or more.

These two quotes go hand in hand. Rarely, if ever, does the wrong primer alone cause failure to ignite, but squibs do frequently occur when that error is combined with others, such as an insufficient powder charge, insufficient crimp, or all 3.