Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
I think it's much more probable he was throwing around his authority.
Problems at a Gun Show...
- Thread starter Nugilum
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I think it's much more probable he was throwing around his authority.
RoostRider
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Is it legal/legit to sell band T-shirts, on your own, in the parking lot for that bands show at the *YourAdHere* Arena?
From my perspective- Assuming the cop is hired as security- and keeping in mind that I didn't read every response and haven't thought about this a whole lot, so I could be way off base- please feel free to counterpoint me....
The cop doesn't have an obligation answer your inquisition as to why the rule is the way it is ... he doesn't have to know the answer even (sure, he should, but thats just a bad employee, not akin to a violation of your rights)... and he doesn't have to stand there and be asked again and again either.... had you asked to speak to his supervisor, and he walked away, I am betting he would be violating a policy of his employer... but I bet policy says it's acceptable to just walk away from anyone who is- a jerk/degrading/smelly... you get the point.... there is likely nothing illegal or wrong about what he did...
As to being followed around by a cop from that point on (assuming it wasn't the same cop)... are you sure you aren't paranoid?...
Are you sure you weren't just going through the place in the same manner he was?.... did you maybe think he was following you and then act strangely, thus legitimizing his following you? Who knows... or, maybe he just heard from his buddy that "that guy is a freak", and decided to make his rounds with you... you know, there could be any number of reasons...
Doesn't sound to me like anyone violated you in any way (yikes!), but I understand why it would make you feel uneasy... it sure would me...
From my perspective- Assuming the cop is hired as security- and keeping in mind that I didn't read every response and haven't thought about this a whole lot, so I could be way off base- please feel free to counterpoint me....
The cop doesn't have an obligation answer your inquisition as to why the rule is the way it is ... he doesn't have to know the answer even (sure, he should, but thats just a bad employee, not akin to a violation of your rights)... and he doesn't have to stand there and be asked again and again either.... had you asked to speak to his supervisor, and he walked away, I am betting he would be violating a policy of his employer... but I bet policy says it's acceptable to just walk away from anyone who is- a jerk/degrading/smelly... you get the point.... there is likely nothing illegal or wrong about what he did...
As to being followed around by a cop from that point on (assuming it wasn't the same cop)... are you sure you aren't paranoid?...
Are you sure you weren't just going through the place in the same manner he was?.... did you maybe think he was following you and then act strangely, thus legitimizing his following you? Who knows... or, maybe he just heard from his buddy that "that guy is a freak", and decided to make his rounds with you... you know, there could be any number of reasons...
Doesn't sound to me like anyone violated you in any way (yikes!), but I understand why it would make you feel uneasy... it sure would me...
damien
Member
This is why I say that all on-duty cops should be required to wear an A/V recorder that records everything they and everyone around them says plus wide angle video at their 12-oclock. Cops need to know someone is always watching them and their actions can be scruitinized after the fact.
doc2rn
Member
Sidewalks are public and transactions that are face to face if legal in the state can be done on them.
bogie
Member
They were probably cops -getting rented to provide security- and part of the security that the show's promoter wants, and you can't really fault him, because renting a facility that size costs some pretty decent cash, is that he doesn't want folks -taking money away from HIS paying customers (the folks who rent the tables) by hanging outside the doors trying to hawk crap.
Personally, I hate running a gauntlet of "hey, you wanna buy my granddad's thutty-thutty for more than wally world wants for a new one?" every time I go to a show...
Personally, I hate running a gauntlet of "hey, you wanna buy my granddad's thutty-thutty for more than wally world wants for a new one?" every time I go to a show...
If it is a city rule, (and not in voilation of some other rule set, fine)
Otherwise, you can hang whatever sign you want. Free speech and all that. Doesn't mean you have to obey the sign. Heck they could hang a sign saying you have to speak in pig latin if doing a parking lot deal.
I understand what they are trying to do. It is like bringing your own beverage to the movie theater. However it isn't illegal, the worst they can do is ask you to leave. If you don't leave, then it is tresspassing, not "Illegal beverage"
However company provided parking areas are generally considered 'for your convenience' and you retain most of your rights and responsibilites. No movie theater would be able to say "No drinking beveages in the parking lot!" even though the people who slam the last half of a bottle of coke before going into the theater are less likely to buy overpriced theater beverages
jrfoxx
Member
I dont have any issue with those running the show, who either own or are renting the property, from saying if you want to do a transfer on their property, it must be done indoors. You can just go off thier property to make the sale, if you dont like it, and all they could do is not let you back in, so....
The main thing I have an issue with here, and I have seen it more than a few times, and not just at gun shows, is cops, in thier officail police uniform, being hired by private individuals to work as security. I have no problem if a cop or anyone else wants to have a second/part time job doing security, but I dont think they should be allowed to wear thier police uniform when doing it. When in uniform, but being paid and under the orders/control of the private party that hired them, one could easily argue that they are no longer representing and beholden to the citizens that that uniform represents as an official, taxpayer funded, LEO position, working for the people, but are now acting for a private person, and enforcing thier rules and wishes, not just the law. I dont think people would be all that keen seeing 30 Marines in full battle rattle, with M4's (issued or even privately owned) working security for some indiviadual in thier free time, looking "official" guarding somebody's house or business. Again, the uniform implies you are working for, and beholden only to, The People, not "a person". Even if the cops and Marine's I mention were 100% above board, at all times, in every action, it's still the impression that the uniform gives.
Hopefully that makes sense. NOT a "cop bash" at all, and I'm guessing law and department policy allows LEO's to wear the uniform during private work, or it wouldnt get done very often at all, I'm just saying I dont think it should be allowed for the above reasons.
The main thing I have an issue with here, and I have seen it more than a few times, and not just at gun shows, is cops, in thier officail police uniform, being hired by private individuals to work as security. I have no problem if a cop or anyone else wants to have a second/part time job doing security, but I dont think they should be allowed to wear thier police uniform when doing it. When in uniform, but being paid and under the orders/control of the private party that hired them, one could easily argue that they are no longer representing and beholden to the citizens that that uniform represents as an official, taxpayer funded, LEO position, working for the people, but are now acting for a private person, and enforcing thier rules and wishes, not just the law. I dont think people would be all that keen seeing 30 Marines in full battle rattle, with M4's (issued or even privately owned) working security for some indiviadual in thier free time, looking "official" guarding somebody's house or business. Again, the uniform implies you are working for, and beholden only to, The People, not "a person". Even if the cops and Marine's I mention were 100% above board, at all times, in every action, it's still the impression that the uniform gives.
Hopefully that makes sense. NOT a "cop bash" at all, and I'm guessing law and department policy allows LEO's to wear the uniform during private work, or it wouldnt get done very often at all, I'm just saying I dont think it should be allowed for the above reasons.
coloradokevin
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johnbt]They rented the building and the parking lot said:
^^^ Exactly what these guys said.
Many of the gun shows I have been to have similar signs, and I don't think it is a problem. The promoter doesn't want you making money off of his event without even paying to get into the event. They are paying for the show, so it is their show!
I don't know why everyone always seems to get their panties in such a twist about their assumed "rights" around here... Why would you call your state's attorney general's office on this? What would that possibly accomplish? Essentially we are looking at a situation where a private landowner leases his/her venue to a gun show promoter, who chooses not to allow sales outside of the show. Where is the crime on the part of the promoters? There isn't one.
coloradokevin
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jrfoxx said:
Actually, when we work off-duty we are bound to the same requirements that we have on-duty.
We only enforce law, not policies of the employing third party. We are forbidden from enforcing management rules, unless they revolve around law violations (like a trespass issue). Thus, we are in no way under the "orders" of the employing third party.
Officers who violate this type of policy are often disciplined in the same manner that they are for on-duty conduct.
Every event that I work off-duty requires the signature of my Sgt and Lt, and a form is filed at HQ indicating where, when, and for who I worked. The places that hire us MUST be on contract with our city, and the contract explains these requirements. Additionally, I have to call out at the location on radio with dispatch.
Think of it as an on-duty officer being paid to remain stationary at that location. It really works well for the community, because they get extra policing for free (this is the case at many airports, bars, night clubs, sporting events, etc).
Just so you CO guys know, every officer working at a Rockies or Broncos game is also an off-duty officer... and their services are not being billed to the tax payer!
After about a half an hour with the clown on your tail you should have stopped , looked him dead in the eye and said " I have to go to take a leak , you gonna come hold it for me or just watch ?" .
I bet he would have left you alone the rest of the day .
I bet he would have left you alone the rest of the day .
86thecat
Member
If your shadow was concerned you would conduct a sale outside the building then following you INSIDE makes no sense other than harassment. Asking a uniformed officer questions about law/policy does not excuse harassment. Too bad your shadow wasn't babysitting some mall ninga who would have handled every firearm and swept him with the muzzle of each.
jrfoxx
Member
coloradokevin-
thats what I assumed was the case for the most part, and wasnt trying to really say that I think LEO's are actually generally acting as "hired cops", it was more along the lines that when they are in uniform, but working private security, that is just an impression it gives me, and likely others, and I think the impression alone could cause people concern.
I also mention it, as it seems the LEO that the OP had a "run in" with WAS acting as a "hired cop", while in uniform, as he seems to have been enforcing the private owner/renter's POLICY as opposed to any law. So, it seems to me that based on what I get from the OP, at least 1 LEO was enforcing private business policy and not just the law, while in uniform, but wotking an "off duty" security job.That, and the impression of possible impropriety, is why I was saying I dont think LEOs should be wearing thier uniforms while working in a private capacity.If they are sent there by thier department to "keep an eye on things", while on duty, in an official capacity, thats a differen, and understandable thing altogether, and I have no issue with that.
If the people running the show want you to not make deals outside the building the show is in, thats fine, but they should not have LEOs enforcing that policy, the owners, rentors, and/or vendors should be doing it themselves.
thats what I assumed was the case for the most part, and wasnt trying to really say that I think LEO's are actually generally acting as "hired cops", it was more along the lines that when they are in uniform, but working private security, that is just an impression it gives me, and likely others, and I think the impression alone could cause people concern.
I also mention it, as it seems the LEO that the OP had a "run in" with WAS acting as a "hired cop", while in uniform, as he seems to have been enforcing the private owner/renter's POLICY as opposed to any law. So, it seems to me that based on what I get from the OP, at least 1 LEO was enforcing private business policy and not just the law, while in uniform, but wotking an "off duty" security job.That, and the impression of possible impropriety, is why I was saying I dont think LEOs should be wearing thier uniforms while working in a private capacity.If they are sent there by thier department to "keep an eye on things", while on duty, in an official capacity, thats a differen, and understandable thing altogether, and I have no issue with that.
If the people running the show want you to not make deals outside the building the show is in, thats fine, but they should not have LEOs enforcing that policy, the owners, rentors, and/or vendors should be doing it themselves.
tinygnat219
Member
Shoot,
I would have had a good time with it. Ask his opinion on certain firearms, ammunition loads, and whether a Dillon really is the "best" press out there for reloading.
The key here is to always be polite. Ask if he's comfortable, if he'd like a drink or a burger (saying you'll fly if he buys). From there, I'd ensure that I got his name, badge number, etc.
Then, once all was said and done, this is where FOIA is your friend. FOIA ALL communications between deputy blank and his superiors on what guidance was given to forbid private sales during a gun show, then do a separate FOIA for the Police Report that deputy such and such was doing following you.
Should make for interesting reading.
I would have had a good time with it. Ask his opinion on certain firearms, ammunition loads, and whether a Dillon really is the "best" press out there for reloading.
The key here is to always be polite. Ask if he's comfortable, if he'd like a drink or a burger (saying you'll fly if he buys). From there, I'd ensure that I got his name, badge number, etc.
Then, once all was said and done, this is where FOIA is your friend. FOIA ALL communications between deputy blank and his superiors on what guidance was given to forbid private sales during a gun show, then do a separate FOIA for the Police Report that deputy such and such was doing following you.
Should make for interesting reading.
Hk91-762mm
Member
As a former gun show dealer I say YEEaaaaaa!!!
When I pay Big money for 4 tables [up tp $100.00 each plus travel expense ]and walk out to the car for somthing and see a second gun show going on in the lot -I think why did I spend all this money -Just go set up in the lot!
What cranks me the worst is I never get a shot at purchasing anything good someone wants to sell as the lot boys are all over it 5X before it gets inside !
Good for them! Im betting the dealers were asking them to stop lot sales!
In NY its ILLEGAL to sell a gun in the lot As all sales have to go through an FFL,,Frankly If someone is selling a gun we walk to the potty and someone else carries it out.
When I pay Big money for 4 tables [up tp $100.00 each plus travel expense ]and walk out to the car for somthing and see a second gun show going on in the lot -I think why did I spend all this money -Just go set up in the lot!
What cranks me the worst is I never get a shot at purchasing anything good someone wants to sell as the lot boys are all over it 5X before it gets inside !
Good for them! Im betting the dealers were asking them to stop lot sales!
In NY its ILLEGAL to sell a gun in the lot As all sales have to go through an FFL,,Frankly If someone is selling a gun we walk to the potty and someone else carries it out.
redneck2
Member
Suppose you own a carpet store. Somebody pulls up in a van and starts selling rugs in your parking lot. After all, it's a free country. Bet you'd have them run off.
There was a show on TV about the Barrett-Jackson car auction. One of the attendees had a sign around his neck about a collectable car he had as a private sale. He got booted in a hurry, but couldn't seem to understand why. Idiot.
I agree with the above post. IMO, the original poster is dead wrong. Also, some of the replies here make you look like jerks. The cop was just doing his job. As noted previously, they don't go to all the time, work, and expense of putting on a show so you can have your own private (free) playground.
There was a show on TV about the Barrett-Jackson car auction. One of the attendees had a sign around his neck about a collectable car he had as a private sale. He got booted in a hurry, but couldn't seem to understand why. Idiot.
I agree with the above post. IMO, the original poster is dead wrong. Also, some of the replies here make you look like jerks. The cop was just doing his job. As noted previously, they don't go to all the time, work, and expense of putting on a show so you can have your own private (free) playground.
El Tejon
Member
I wish a cop would follow me around at a gun show. I'd make him carry my ammo.
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