Pulled over in VA, cop asked for my gun.

[bowfin]

Tell the cop "Since we both have guns, let's make a gentleman's agreement that we will both keep them holstered." Never trust a person who doesn't trust you. "All is yellow to the jaundiced eye", as the Bard used to say.

If a police officer is that paranoid of the citizenry, given no cause, he might need to consider alternative career options.

Anyhow, anytime you are dealing with a LEO, even if you called him, get a card and the name of his immediate supervisor. Just asking for it sometimes moves the encounter to a better level.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Been driving since I was 15.5 like most other male Americans. Drive every day. I've NEVER seen the flashing red lights in my mirror. Never even had a warning, much less a ticket.

No, that's not like most other male Americans. Most of us have racked up at least 3 or 4 tickets by the time we hit 30.

I'm the same age as you, and just recently (~2 yrs) realized what you've known all along - 10 mph over might get you there a minute earlier, but it's not worth the extra stress. Of course, it helps when the speed limit is 75. That's about fast enough for the cars I drive.

 

[saltydog]

Maybe you should learn to obey the speed limit. Then this wouldn't be an issue.

Good advice. I don't give police any reason to pull me over. I'm 53 and never had a ticket.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

This is for officer safety, so hand the gun over. The cop does not know whether you are dangerous - you could be one of the many thousands of firearms license holders in Virginia who shoot cops every year.

His fear is rational and justified.

 

[RealGun]

you could be one of the many thousands of firearms license holders in Virginia who shoot cops every year.

What the !#$@% are you talking about?

 

[tanksoldier]

Even here in Colorado, with some of the best RKBA laws in the nation, cops have the right to temporarily disarm you. OTOH we don't have to tell them we're armed, either... unless the specifically ask

Right or wrong, in the long run it's probably safer for you (if the cop is jittery about private citizens being armed) for him to have your gun for a bit. Keeps misunderstandings to a minimum.

 

[Lupinus]

should they be allowed to disarm you with no cause? No, they shouldn't for several reasons.

One- They don't know my firearm or how to operate it and if they go to unload it or some such, I don't trust them to be safe with it.

Two- I don't know what their gun handeling safty skills are. They may be a cop and trained in firearms but then I know a lot of people who are "trained" I wont go near when they have a gun because I don't feel like getting shot.

Three- I don't trust them to properly handel my firearm and not scratch, ding, drop, etc my firearm. Guns aren't cheap, even the cheap ones are not cheap, and I don't want my property damaged. I know a CCW gun should be expected to get worn and what not but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be worried about preventing it as much as possible.

Four- Because once a gun is out of the holster the chances of a ND or AD go through the roof and I for one prefer not taking that chance.

Five- Because I am an American Citizen, who will have passed a pretty good backround check that shows I haven't commited a violent crime, don't have mental issues, and a host of other things you should worry about. I am not going to shoot you, I have no plans to, so me keeping my gun doesn't effect your officer safty, if anything it effects mine for the duration of my disarmerment.

So should they disarm you? No. Should they be allowed to? If you have a valid CCW and there are not other circumstances present, then no. But am I going to argue with a cop on the side of the road after I just informed him I had a loaded gun? Hell no, it isn't the time nor the place and I don't feel like putting up with the BS.

 

[RealGun]

in the long run it's probably safer for you (if the cop is jittery about private citizens being armed) for him to have your gun for a bit. Keeps misunderstandings to a minimum.

Transferring a loaded and ready pistol is not "safe". The best situation is for all guns to remain in their holsters. A policeman's request for my gun would conflict with my resolve not be shot with my own gun. Some, perhaps many, do not have the ability to disarm without unholstering the gun.

 

[Phetro]

you could be one of the many thousands of firearms license holders in Virginia who shoot cops every year.

What the !#$@% are you talking about?

He's talking about a little thing called

 

[mtnbkr]

This is for officer safety, so hand the gun over. The cop does not know whether you are dangerous - you could be one of the many thousands of firearms license holders in Virginia who shoot cops every year.

Nevermind. My sarcasm gene isn't working too well today...

Chris

 

[Rockrivr1]

Last year I was careless and was speeding through a rural neighborhood and got pulled over for doing almost 20mph over the speed limit. It was the first time I was pulled over since I got my CCW and unforutunately I had changed my CCW location from my pants pocket to the front inside pocket of my jacket. Even worse was that it was formerly the place where I kept my wallet. When the officer, who was pretty pissed at how fast I was going, asked form my license and registration, I instinctively reached into my front jacket pocket for my wallet. I realized at the last instance that it wasn't my wallet my hand was on and immediately went to another pocket that my wallet was in. (Immediate cold sweat started) Mass doesn't have a law that states we have to disclose our CCW status, so I didn't tell the officer I was carrying. Got a big fat ticket though.

I posted about this and unfortunately the post turned into a HUGE flame war between me and several other members. Most who also indicated my stupidity for going so fast. (I'm giving the clean version) That in turn got other members involved about how people make mistakes, nobodies perfect. It was no surprise when the post was locked down. I'm pretty sure I made it to the ignore list of several members for that one.

Everyone speeds. Some only slightly, but others more frequently. I haven't been pulled over a dozon times, but I've had my fair share. It happens. If speeding is your only vise, that isn't so bad in my book.

The officer taking your firearm temporarily doesn't bother me so much though. I figure he's being overly safe, but in today's world, I don't blame him.

 

[bruss01]

Seriously, how many of you guys have never done 10 mph over the limit?
My biggest ticket, ever, was 77 in a 55. That's on our freeway, 264E, at night, sober(always), and just going home from work. That got me landed in a cell for reckless driving, because in VA, if you break the 20 over limit, you are a dnagerous criminal and must be locked up.
I've been pulled over lots of times, but mostly because I have always been driving crap cars with something or another wrong with them. My current car has 286k miles it, and I have a finnicky middle tail light. I've been pulled four times for that.
I have had NO tickets in five years, of any kind, and only three in ten years. I get pulled over a LOT more than I get ticketed. Having NY plates here in VA for a while was the biggest cop magnet. I switched it over, and now I have VA plates in NY pretty often, and get pulled over a lot up there. It's usually "easy money" on the part of the officer. He figures I don't live there, won't come to court, and will just send a check.
I got my gun back, and told him to have a nice day. (he didn't ticket me) and that's that. I just don't like the disarming routine.

HAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Around here, if you aren't doing at least 77 in a 55 you will get run over and cause a huge backup on the freeway. Assuming, of course, that there isn't already a huge backup on the freeway. Anyone doing 55 in a 55 is assumed to be drunk or toting drugs or other contraband and trying WAY TOO HARD to NOT get stopped. These people tend to get stopped for "tail light out" stops - when the driver points out that the tail light isn't out, they get told "then you have an intermittent problem, sir, better get that wiring checked out". Just going with the flow here, however much over the limit, will result in your probability of being stopped to ridiculously low odds. Driving in CA since 1998 I have been stopped a grand total of ONCE and for years I typically drove 75 or 80 on the 40 minute drive to work everyday. I looked at getting pulled over that once as the "permit fee" for having all those speedy miles and considered it worthwhile. I guess the officer appreciated my relaxed attitude and clean record because he let me off with a VERBAL warning, no paperwork. For doing nearly 80 on the freeway. Guess it's a regional thing.

Of course, this being CA if there'd been a loaded gun in the car at the time I'd be doing time in the Graybar hotel right now for using a fiream in the commission of a crime....

 

[Phetro]

I posted about this and unfortunately the post turned into a HUGE flame war between me and several other members. Most who also indicated my stupidity for going so fast. (I'm giving the clean version) That in turn got other members involved about how people make mistakes, nobodies perfect. It was no surprise when the post was locked down. I'm pretty sure I made it to the ignore list of several members for that one.

Pfft. Don't let the do-gooder busybodies get to you. Their self-righteousness ends the minute their computers shut down, and they get back in their cars, doing 15-30 mph over the limit because their lives are oh-so-important.

The question is not whether speeding is acceptable. The question is where and when one can safely speed, and by how much. Anyone who answers "nowhere and never" will be first in line to hand in their guns when they're told--remember that before you heed anything they say.

 

[Moondoggie]

Look at it this way...if you raise a stink about relinquishing your firearm because you're primarily concerned about overall safety (stranger handling an unfamiliar weapon, possible AD/ND) what's probably going to happen is that ALL the weapons present are going to get unholstered. The risk factor has increased significantly. How do you think your firearm is going to be handled by the officer after he cuffs you and removes it from your holster?


Once an officer takes a position with a "client", and the law supports that officer's decision, he's NOT gonna back down. You're NOT going to talk him into changing his mind. If you don't go along with the program, you're going to have a very negative experience. What would YOU do as a LEO after someone informed you that they were armed and then copped an attitude about surrendering the weapon??? Could even lead to revocation of your CHL if the officer wants to make a big deal out of it. Could lead to a felony conviction (resisting/obstructing) if the moon and planets align against you. Buh bye all of your firearms for life. Hello to almost being able to claim an atty as a dependent on your 1040.

The question is....."Does it ever happen? Can it happen to you?"

One of the primary tenants IMHO of concealed carry is to avoid/defuze conflict. Behavior that you should realize by now is likely to bring you into contact with LEO should be avoided.

When you took your training for your CHL, I'm sure they covered the part of the law that said a LEO has the right to disarm you during contact. You signed an application stating that you understood the laws pertaining to CCW and agreed to comply....just go along with the program.

Sometimes discretion really is the better part of valor.

 

[AirForceShooter]

First rule of LEOdom. "I will go home tonight".
It's that simple. The LEO making the stop wants to be safe.
And if you were in his/her shoes so would you.

AFS

 

[Molon Labe]

The LEO making the stop wants to be safe.

But... there are many cops who do not take the weapon. Your argument implies that an LEO who does not take the weapon is not concerned about his safety, which is obviously not true.

There is a reason some cops take the weapon for minor infractions (e.g. speeding), and others do not. What is the reason? I can think of a few:

1. The cop is a JBT, and doesn't like the idea of "civilians" bearing arms. Taking the gun is his way of showing his contempt for civilians who have the nerve to carry guns. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.

2. The cop is paranoid. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.

3. The cop is inherently distrustful of people. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.

Suffice to say, a cop that always takes a weapon regardless of the offense (even for speeding) has a mental problem, and hence should not be a cop.

 

[Byron Quick]

Well, I'm well between the perfectly safe, law abiding drivers among us and that irresponsible scofflaw driver. Much closer to him than the 'never been stopped' crowd.

I've never been stopped in a 'duty to inform' state. I have, on occasion, told the officer I was legally armed or included my CHL with my driver's license. The officer has never even asked where it was located.

I dropped my license one afternoon after receiving a warning ticket. My weapon was exposed as I bent down to retrieve it. The trooper asked if I had a permit. I answered in the affirmative. He did not ask to see it and we stood on the shoulder for thirty minutes talking about shooting, hunting, and guns.

I've been stopped a few times coming back from an all day trip to the range over the years. The answer to "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle?" was darned amusing: "10 long guns, six handguns, a submachine gun, several throwing knives, and a 400 year old samurai sword, officer." On a couple of these occasions, the officer wished to take possession of the weapons and clear them during the stop. Now I had no basic problem with the officer doing so. Traffic stops would be extremely nerve wracking if I were in his position...I prefer to do my part in keeping Officer Friendly-Officer Friendly and not overly nervous. Only problem is that each and every time this has occurred, it was obvious that the officer had no clue as to how to safely clear some of the weapons and I was covered at least once each time by a muzzle of a weapon. A couple of times more than once.

The only problem I have with an officer taking possession of my weapon(s) during a stop is that, based on personal experience, I have little confidence in his ability to safely handle the weapon(s). The officers need to be trained to not attempt to clear weapons they are unfamiliar with and to obey the four safety rules at all times.

 

[RealGun]

So tell us how disarming actually occurs. Do I get out of my vehicle at gunpoint and put my hands on the roof or hood? Is the officer's safety the only real concern? I think if I was an officer I might want to leave well enough alone if presented with an authentic carry license.

An honest citizen with no ill intentions will inform an officer, if the law so requires. A criminal will not, so only the good guys get treated poorly here.

 

[sacp81170a]

Okay, fine. Then we get to disarm the cops too. Why do our guns put them in danger but theirs don't have the same effect on us?

*Sigh* I've heard that line of thinking dozens of times(notice I did not say reasoning). If there is a deadly force confrontation, you as a non-sworn citizen may not have a duty to retreat, but neither do you have a duty to stick around. The best tactic in such a situation may be to get out of the area as quickly as possible. The LEO, on the other hand, has sworn that he or she *will* stick around and has a positive duty to do so. That is why LEO's are given so much discretion in the use of physical force.

You can back down, exit, flee, beat feet, etc. and you will be praised for your common sense. The LEO who does so will be villified and most likely lose their job. We really don't get paid enough to put our lives on the line on a regular basis, but then neither do firefighters and military personnel. When I'm on duty, no way in h311 am I gonna surrender control of my firearm to anyone but a supervisor or fellow officer. Law and common sense are on my side, your opinion has no bearing on the matter.

 

[Smurfslayer]

L&P board full of sheep?

This is for officer safety, so hand the gun over. The cop does not know whether you are dangerous - you could be one of the many thousands of firearms license holders in Virginia who shoot cops every year.

I swear I can hear bleating...


First, statistically speaking automobiles present several factors of magnitude more risk to traffic officers than firearms. Second, and more important, I frankly couldn't care less about his/her safety over my own. Mine is more important. As some others have pointed out there is a wide disparity in policies by state. By and large, when you are stopped for a traffic offense in Virginia, it's a misdemeanor. 10 over is not, in and of itself anything worse than a fine, however the traffic stop *IS* a detention and potentially an arrest. The test is if you are not "free to go"- you're in custody. In custody, the officer has discretion to either issue a citation or take you before a magistrate if for some reason you are presenting a threat, etc. In fact, in Virginia they are required to issue the citation by statute unless you are posing a threat, or you may in the officer's opinion be a flight risk, not show up for court, etc...

If you got a warning, or citation you were clearly not a threat. In VA, you can only resist an unlawful arrest, not a lawful one and in your case more than likely your arrest was lawful. Even so, the facts don't support this kind of stupidity.

The only way the officer's approach gets changed is to file a complaint with the department. It may sound like a whiny reaction but think about it - it's the only legitimate recourse you have to have the department ACTUALLY THINK about this practice.

As for what to do - Think about this: There have been several innocent citizens killed in VA in the last 15 years at the hands of law enforcement. The court standard for prosecution of LE here is "gross negligence". Your death would not be gross negligence, even if the cop shot you with your gun under these circumstances. Added on top of this extremely high burden to overcome is that most of the Commonwealths Attorneys will not prosecute a law enforcement officer. Ever. It's also the department's discretion who investigates a citizen fatality - most of the time it's the same department.

Hey - Former PWC sheriff Stoffgren just got a deal for swindling that AR15 when he left office - was in the Freelance Star and Richmond Times Dispatch. Now, do you seriously believe you'd get the same sweetheart non felony deal (despite being WAY over $200) ?

Definitely talk to the department chief; formal complaint or not.

 

[XavierBreath]

Once an officer takes a position with a "client", and the law supports that officer's decision, he's NOT gonna back down. You're NOT going to talk him into changing his mind. If you don't go along with the program, you're going to have a very negative experience. What would YOU do as a LEO after someone informed you that they were armed and then copped an attitude about surrendering the weapon???

Moondoggie....... Post #39. Excellent!

Okay, fine. Then we get to disarm the cops too. Why do our guns put them in danger but theirs don't have the same effect on us?

No double standards.

This course of action is ill advised.

There are many reasons an officer may want to temporarily disarm a law abiding private citizen. The law gives him that right, despite your clearing a background check that allows you to carry concealed. If you refuse his lawful request to be disarmed, you have just committed a firearms violation. Your experience will quickly go South, and you will not have a pleasant evening.

Just because a person qualified for a CHL three years ago does not mean he is not now engaged in criminal activity. It does not mean he is not dangerous. It does not mean he is not now a fugitive from justice. It simply means he was not convicted of a disqualifying offense when he applied for the CHL. That is all a CHL tells an officer, other than the fact you are likely armed.

On the other hand..... There was one night that I called in a complaint from my home at 2AM. When the responding officers arrived, I handed them my driver's license as well as my CHL. They asked if I was armed. I responded affirmatively. I was carrying a 1911 under my jacket. They disarmed me on my own front porch. After the encounter, the responding officer returned my weapon and thanked me. I told him no worries. Afterall, I had a shotgun leaning against the wall inside the front door.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I've been stopped a few times coming back from an all day trip to the range over the years. The answer to "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle?" was darned amusing: "10 long guns, six handguns, a submachine gun, several throwing knives, and a 400 year old samurai sword, officer."

That's nothing. When I moved from Tennessee to Minnesota a few months ago, I loaded all my firearms and ammo in my car for the trip (the movers wouldn't take ammo, and I didn't trust them with the guns). We visited my in-laws in Michigan first, and then took the SS Badger car ferry across Lake Michigan to Wisconsin.

When I drove up to the gate where you turn over your vehicle to be loaded onto the ferry, the nice lady asked me whether I had any firearms or ammunition in the car. Um, yeah. "What do you have?" she asked. "Rifles, pistols, shotguns, ammo, you name it," I replied. "I need you to list them for me," she said. "How many sheets of paper do you have?" I asked. She looked at me for a minute, realized I wasn't kidding, and called for a supervisor.

Thankfully, the supervisor was very matter-of-fact and not at all alarmist. He didn't blink at all at the long list of firearms, but I think I saw an eyebrow get raised at the 8,000 rounds of .308 and 5,000 rounds of 7.63x29.

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Around here, if you aren't doing at least 77 in a 55 you will get run over and cause a huge backup on the freeway.

I agree with you on that. Living in California sucks, but one thing I worry very little about is being pulled over for doing 80 on the freeway (w/ speed limit 50-65). I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but when everyone is going that fast, the chances are slim to none unless you are doing something else wrong or look suspicious. Most often, when you see CHP, they are doing 90, without any lights on. The only person I know who got pulled over by the CHP for speeding was doing 95 in a 65.

That being said, I keep it at 70 when driving with guns, but that is probably being over cautious. And I got pulled over for doing 81 in a 70 on a rural state highway with virtually no traffic by Nevada Highway Patrol--dude stopped and flipped a u-ie just to catch up to me. He also added driving without insurance to it because there was a typo on the VIN of the insurance card. He knew it was a typo and that the car was insured, but he said, "Sorry, if I see it I have to cite it". So I got a $75 speeding ticket and a $750 driving without insurance ticket. Thankfully, the courts in that county dismissed the insurance bit after the insurance company sent them a letter letting them know it was a mistake.

Regarding cops taking away the firearms of obvious law-abiding people on the pretext that they want to go home, that doesn't make sense. If cops were truly concerned about their safety when they did this, they'd make everyone get out of the car, at gunpoint, then lie face down and spread eagled.

Regarding the argument that cops have a special duty to stay around when something dangerous happens (whatever, I've seen this "duty" broken or followed in only the most cautious way in many dangerous situations) may give them the right to cary a firearm in general, but it does not give them the right to disarm civillians, just because they have the option of fleeing.

 

[glummer]

What would YOU do as a LEO after someone informed you that they were armed and then copped an attitude about surrendering the weapon???

If he informed me, I wouldn't ask for the weapon, so there would be no "attitude."

First rule of LEOdom. "I will go home tonight".
It's that simple. The LEO making the stop wants to be safe.
And if you were in his/her shoes so would you.

Everybody wants to go home tonight. What makes LEO's any different from cab drivers?

And, feeling safe is not the same thing as being safe. Trying to disarm the driver may make you feel safe, if all you're doing is pulling rank on a law-abiding citizen. Bullying is one way to feel in control.
But if the subject IS armed and dangerous, and you don't know it, you're probably going to precipitate the very thing you fear.

 

[baz]

I haven't been stopped since I started carrying. I'm not too concerned about having to turn over my weapon during a stop if it comes to that, but my first instinct would be to unload it first. I always do that before I relinquish a weapon to the hands of another person.

What would an LEO think about that?