Pulled over in VA, cop asked for my gun.
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5th, and actual most common reason.
They don't know any better.
I'm dead serious. This came up at the last state gathering of concealed weapons instructors and the state Bureau of Criminal Identification (which takes care of permits in Utah).
Most of the problem cops are relatively new. When informed about the gun, they don't know what to do, so they disarm the CCW holder. Usually out of ignorance about officer safety.
This problem has been getting steadily better in recent years as permit holders become more and more common. We pushed for a unit to be inserted into the police academy curriculum about it, but nothing resulted, mostly from lack of time.
That said, there still is that small percentage that are just doofuses that fit into your reason 1-4. PvtPyle got pulled over the other day by one who was a complete jerk. They are out there.
And in defense of the original poster, I've been pulled over seven or eight times in the six years that I've carried a gun here. Never for excessive speeding, but usually because the speed limit is about ten miles an hour less than it should be.
I've only gotten one ticket in my life and that was in California. (there is no way that a highway across the middle of the fricking desert should be 55 mph). Everytime I've been pulled over in Utah, I've been armed, usually much better than the officer, and I've only gotten warnings.
I was pulled over once in the middle of nowhere. 75 in a 65. (didn't even realize it was a 65). I had 2 guns on my person. Body armor on the seat next to me. A Wasatch plate carrier full of loaded magazines. And six rifles and shotguns in the back seat, all of them ARs, AKs, or Saigas.
Got a warning to slow it down.
I love Utah.
They don't know any better.
I'm dead serious. This came up at the last state gathering of concealed weapons instructors and the state Bureau of Criminal Identification (which takes care of permits in Utah).
Most of the problem cops are relatively new. When informed about the gun, they don't know what to do, so they disarm the CCW holder. Usually out of ignorance about officer safety.
This problem has been getting steadily better in recent years as permit holders become more and more common. We pushed for a unit to be inserted into the police academy curriculum about it, but nothing resulted, mostly from lack of time.
That said, there still is that small percentage that are just doofuses that fit into your reason 1-4. PvtPyle got pulled over the other day by one who was a complete jerk. They are out there.
And in defense of the original poster, I've been pulled over seven or eight times in the six years that I've carried a gun here. Never for excessive speeding, but usually because the speed limit is about ten miles an hour less than it should be.
I've only gotten one ticket in my life and that was in California. (there is no way that a highway across the middle of the fricking desert should be 55 mph). Everytime I've been pulled over in Utah, I've been armed, usually much better than the officer, and I've only gotten warnings.I was pulled over once in the middle of nowhere. 75 in a 65. (didn't even realize it was a 65). I had 2 guns on my person. Body armor on the seat next to me. A Wasatch plate carrier full of loaded magazines. And six rifles and shotguns in the back seat, all of them ARs, AKs, or Saigas.
Got a warning to slow it down.
I love Utah.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
I hadn't thought about that until now. That's my first instinct also. Dropping the mag and racking the slide (to clear the one in the pipe) might get you drawn down on or shot pretty quickly in low light.
I appreciate the argument for officer safety but what would someone who WAS a bad guy and WAS contemplating shooting you going to answer to the "do you have any weapons?" question?
Also, pulling a loaded gun out of the holster, either by myself or the officer, then having he/she clear it is probably the worst possible thing for BOTH of our safety you could possibly do. A lot of people leave their carry guns in the holster when they remove them at night to reduce the chance of a ND and these are people who are familiar with the weapon! "Oops, sorry" wouldn't make me feel better if I was shot with my own weapon because it made the officer feel safer. I'd feel better with "please keep your hands where I can see them" (which I do anyway the few times I've been stopped).
"I just don't like the disarming routine..."
You can NOT blaim any LEO for taking a weapon from an individual during a traffic stop, EVEN though it is legal, and I would argue that NOT taking it is STUPID on their part.
LEO's work for us, the good guys. They do the job I don't, and the VAST majority of us, don't want to do. What is that you ask? Deal with the absolute SCUM of our society on a DAILY basis at the risk of life and limb. And to make matters worse, they do so under a freaking microscope of scrutiny.
The more I, the good guy who may have been speeding or doing something stupid, cooperate with the officer, the faster I can make him available to deal with the bad guy, who may have been speeding or doing something stupid with a kilo of heroin in the trunk.
You can NOT blaim any LEO for taking a weapon from an individual during a traffic stop, EVEN though it is legal, and I would argue that NOT taking it is STUPID on their part.
LEO's work for us, the good guys. They do the job I don't, and the VAST majority of us, don't want to do. What is that you ask? Deal with the absolute SCUM of our society on a DAILY basis at the risk of life and limb. And to make matters worse, they do so under a freaking microscope of scrutiny.
The more I, the good guy who may have been speeding or doing something stupid, cooperate with the officer, the faster I can make him available to deal with the bad guy, who may have been speeding or doing something stupid with a kilo of heroin in the trunk.
bamawrx
Member
Lupinus wins
My buddy had a young buck deputy take his 1911 during a stop. Turns out he had NO CLUE how to use the handgun and was trying to "decock" the firearm with his finger on the trigger and depressing they thumb safety.
My buddy was alert and gave the instructions to the officer to operate the weapon. The stop did not go well and resulted in a letter to the chief. The chief spoke to my buddy later about incident and told him his CCW was no good here.
If the chief isn't aware of AL/FL reciprocity, and deputy can't operate non-glock, then I think I'll keep my mouth shut around here.
My buddy had a young buck deputy take his 1911 during a stop. Turns out he had NO CLUE how to use the handgun and was trying to "decock" the firearm with his finger on the trigger and depressing they thumb safety.
My buddy was alert and gave the instructions to the officer to operate the weapon. The stop did not go well and resulted in a letter to the chief. The chief spoke to my buddy later about incident and told him his CCW was no good here.
If the chief isn't aware of AL/FL reciprocity, and deputy can't operate non-glock, then I think I'll keep my mouth shut around here.
I am a licensed instructor in a state with mandatory disclosure, I have never had an officer ask for my handgun......
If you think about it, disarming someone that tells you they have a permit and a loaded handgun is plain silly.......if I had the inclination to shoot an officer.......I would shoot him when he walked up to the door.....NOT after telling him I have a gun!!!
If you think about it, disarming someone that tells you they have a permit and a loaded handgun is plain silly.......if I had the inclination to shoot an officer.......I would shoot him when he walked up to the door.....NOT after telling him I have a gun!!!
Lupinus
Member
sweet whats the prize?
I wonder what would happen to you though in all seriousness if the officer was stupid and ended up shooting himself in the foot (or someplace worse) or something like that.
Gon-
Thats why as has been said it doesn't make the officer safer, it just makes him feel that way and/or gets to a part of his brain that wants some control over the sheep. If I (or anyone else) wanted to shoot the officer it wouldn't be after informing them I had a gun.
I don't like people handeling my guns, esspecialy ones with no idea how to properly use them but try to anyway.
auschip
Member
Must have been the noise causing you to miss the sarcasm in his post.
Molon Labe
Member
Sure you can.
If an LEO pulls me over for a simple speeding violation, and he takes my weapon so he can feel "secure" or whatever, then he is entirely to blame.
Any cop who routinely takes guns from CCW holders during routine traffic stops, including minor traffic violations, has a mental problem.
stillamarine
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When I was in MI and the CCW laws changed a couple years ago, a buddy and I decided that if we were ever asked to hand over our weapon that we would politely ask the officer to radio his dispatcher that he was doing so. This creates a time stamp of the incident and he can't turn around and say you drew on him.
Not all LEOs are nice guys. But most of them are trying. I think it was said earlier, not everyone with a CCW is law abiding. People with CCWs do kill people, true it may be a small minority but it happens.
Not all LEOs are nice guys. But most of them are trying. I think it was said earlier, not everyone with a CCW is law abiding. People with CCWs do kill people, true it may be a small minority but it happens.
Wow, sure living Free aren't you!? Got a permit to carry your gun (Big Government said you can - that's cute) and you let a Cop walk away with your gun.
Wow... I'm sure Jefferson and Washington would have done the same, and I bet all the Minutemen would have too.
I'm truley amazed that at least 80% of gun owners don't live a free lifestyle, or even know what freedom is. And this isn't just a jab at YOU, it's a jab at 99% of so called "Patriots".
mtnbkr
Member
So what have you done in those situations? Don't tell us what you would do, what HAVE you done? Your example could embolden the rest of us.
Chris
Chris
RealGun
Member
That's if old enough to drive.
"If an LEO pulls me over for a simple speeding violation, and he takes my weapon so he can feel "secure" or whatever, then he is entirely to blame.
Any cop who routinely takes guns from CCW holders during routine traffic stops, including minor traffic violations, has a mental problem."
I would highly recommend trying to get in on a "ride along" with your local police, if available. While the night may prove to be boring, you may have the opportunity to actually talk to a seasoned officer who may or may not enlighten you on the true nature of human beings.
YOU carry a gun for protection, and an LEO will take that gun for the same reason. Protection. Whether right or wrong, I'm sure the LEO would much rather hurt your feelings by taking your gun and giving it back, than get in a gun fight with a potential CCW carrying criminal. I would, and I bet YOU would do the same.
Any cop who routinely takes guns from CCW holders during routine traffic stops, including minor traffic violations, has a mental problem."
I would highly recommend trying to get in on a "ride along" with your local police, if available. While the night may prove to be boring, you may have the opportunity to actually talk to a seasoned officer who may or may not enlighten you on the true nature of human beings.
YOU carry a gun for protection, and an LEO will take that gun for the same reason. Protection. Whether right or wrong, I'm sure the LEO would much rather hurt your feelings by taking your gun and giving it back, than get in a gun fight with a potential CCW carrying criminal. I would, and I bet YOU would do the same.
Lupinus
Member
No I wouldn't
because I have the common sense to relize that if someone wanted to shoot me they aren't going to fist tell me they have a gun and Me, You, and everyone else in range is much safer if the gun stays in its holster then in my hands when it is a model I am not familer with :banghead:
because I have the common sense to relize that if someone wanted to shoot me they aren't going to fist tell me they have a gun and Me, You, and everyone else in range is much safer if the gun stays in its holster then in my hands when it is a model I am not familer with :banghead:
12-34hom
Member
Tripe is a dish best served cold?
There is a reason some cops take the weapon for minor infractions (e.g. speeding), and others do not. What is the reason? I can think of a few:
1. The cop is a JBT, and doesn't like the idea of "civilians" bearing arms. Taking the gun is his way of showing his contempt for civilians who have the nerve to carry guns. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.
2. The cop is paranoid. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.
3. The cop is inherently distrustful of people. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.
Suffice to say, a cop that always takes a weapon regardless of the offense (even for speeding) has a mental problem, and hence should not be a cop
Thank you Dr Phil...
- Your response has all the hallmarks you attribute to this so called "JBT".
Molon Labe, is that the brand of beer you currently drink?
12-34hom.
There is a reason some cops take the weapon for minor infractions (e.g. speeding), and others do not. What is the reason? I can think of a few:
1. The cop is a JBT, and doesn't like the idea of "civilians" bearing arms. Taking the gun is his way of showing his contempt for civilians who have the nerve to carry guns. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.
2. The cop is paranoid. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.
3. The cop is inherently distrustful of people. If this is the case, he shouldn't be cop.
Suffice to say, a cop that always takes a weapon regardless of the offense (even for speeding) has a mental problem, and hence should not be a cop
Thank you Dr Phil...
- Your response has all the hallmarks you attribute to this so called "JBT". Molon Labe, is that the brand of beer you currently drink?
12-34hom.
This is what I did
I live in Ohio, where your chl comes up as soon as they run your license plate and you are required to notify the officer as soon as he approaches your car. When our chl law was passed the State Patrol were ordered as a matter of Standard Operating Procedure to always disarm the driver at traffic stops. Specifically they would order the driver to keep his hands on the steering wheel and he would reach in and pull the weapon from the holster. Trust me I am as negative about this as anyone here. Not only does this procedure violate a fundamental civil right, but it inherently endangers both parties when the leo handles a weapon, often in the dark, that he likely has no knowledge of whatsoever, and all this in the name of officer safety!
Naturally all this weighed heavily on my mind after I got my CHL and found out what was being done to permitees at traffic stops. As has been pointed out on this thread, a point blank refusal to be disarmed could ruin your whole day and possibly the rest of your life.
Sure enouph, on a trip to the VA hospital in Cincinnatti, I got clocked doing
72 on the Interstate, and yup the Patrol Officer informed me, that he was going to disarm me. In my best, nonconfrontational manner, I asked "Why, have I threatened you or given you reason to believe that I was dangerous?"
The officer was distinctly displeased and growled "No, just standard procedure." "I replied, so you're planning to handle a gun you haven't even seen yet, and dont even know what kind it is(it was dark and in my IWB right side, he would have had to go to the other side of my vehicle to see it), I know you have the legal right to do so, but did you ever consider thats a really bad idea? I really dont want to get shot with my own gun! He drew back and asked " Are you refusing to allow me to disarm you"? I quick replied,
Not at all, I'm just questioning why you're going to endange my safety." Look, I am going to disarm you whether you like it or not! I said Okay, but if I even remotely believe you pointed my gun at me, I will bring you up on charges! At this point I was betting, I would definitely miss my appointment. Anyway to make a long post shorter, the officer called for backup, his supervisor showed up, ordered me out of vehicle and pulled the gun out of the holster and proceeded to chew me out, or at least tried to. I wasn't having it, I just kept asking them how having an ND or AD was making anybody any safer. They didn't have an answer for that and finally wrote my ticket and let me go. And yeah I was late for the appointment. Lessons learned, ask for business cards and keep repeating that you'll be happy to comply while reminding them that an accidental shooting is not in their best interest. I believe if more of us did so they would be less willing to follow this dangerous practice.
I live in Ohio, where your chl comes up as soon as they run your license plate and you are required to notify the officer as soon as he approaches your car. When our chl law was passed the State Patrol were ordered as a matter of Standard Operating Procedure to always disarm the driver at traffic stops. Specifically they would order the driver to keep his hands on the steering wheel and he would reach in and pull the weapon from the holster. Trust me I am as negative about this as anyone here. Not only does this procedure violate a fundamental civil right, but it inherently endangers both parties when the leo handles a weapon, often in the dark, that he likely has no knowledge of whatsoever, and all this in the name of officer safety!
Naturally all this weighed heavily on my mind after I got my CHL and found out what was being done to permitees at traffic stops. As has been pointed out on this thread, a point blank refusal to be disarmed could ruin your whole day and possibly the rest of your life.
Sure enouph, on a trip to the VA hospital in Cincinnatti, I got clocked doing
72 on the Interstate, and yup the Patrol Officer informed me, that he was going to disarm me. In my best, nonconfrontational manner, I asked "Why, have I threatened you or given you reason to believe that I was dangerous?"
The officer was distinctly displeased and growled "No, just standard procedure." "I replied, so you're planning to handle a gun you haven't even seen yet, and dont even know what kind it is(it was dark and in my IWB right side, he would have had to go to the other side of my vehicle to see it), I know you have the legal right to do so, but did you ever consider thats a really bad idea? I really dont want to get shot with my own gun! He drew back and asked " Are you refusing to allow me to disarm you"? I quick replied,
Not at all, I'm just questioning why you're going to endange my safety." Look, I am going to disarm you whether you like it or not! I said Okay, but if I even remotely believe you pointed my gun at me, I will bring you up on charges! At this point I was betting, I would definitely miss my appointment. Anyway to make a long post shorter, the officer called for backup, his supervisor showed up, ordered me out of vehicle and pulled the gun out of the holster and proceeded to chew me out, or at least tried to. I wasn't having it, I just kept asking them how having an ND or AD was making anybody any safer. They didn't have an answer for that and finally wrote my ticket and let me go. And yeah I was late for the appointment. Lessons learned, ask for business cards and keep repeating that you'll be happy to comply while reminding them that an accidental shooting is not in their best interest. I believe if more of us did so they would be less willing to follow this dangerous practice.
Steve in PA
Member
So what "charges" would you have brought him up on if the officer did laser you with your gun??
gunsmith
member
I speed all the time
all the time, unless I am in a residential or school zone I'm over 10 above.
speed laws are an extortion racket...but at the same time I have excellent relations with LE and I always apologize for making them stop me, I am always polite...even friendly.
I have not been caught since I've gotten out of the motorcycle messenger biz.
My last ticket i was caught doing between 90 and 110 in a 65mph zone...the cop let me have a "over 65 ticket"....I didn't reveal i was packing heat because i was in Marin county CA and didn't have a ccw
I treat LE like they are family because I have family in LE & I want them treated good too.
I know I can not change traffic laws so I try not to get caught and I try to stay away from anal retentive traffic control areas.
Northern NV and northern CA are great compared to some of yer east coast anal retentive driving attitudes.
SLOWER TRAFFIC MUST MOVE RIGHT!
all the time, unless I am in a residential or school zone I'm over 10 above.
speed laws are an extortion racket...but at the same time I have excellent relations with LE and I always apologize for making them stop me, I am always polite...even friendly.
I have not been caught since I've gotten out of the motorcycle messenger biz.
My last ticket i was caught doing between 90 and 110 in a 65mph zone...the cop let me have a "over 65 ticket"....I didn't reveal i was packing heat because i was in Marin county CA and didn't have a ccw
I treat LE like they are family because I have family in LE & I want them treated good too.
I know I can not change traffic laws so I try not to get caught and I try to stay away from anal retentive traffic control areas.
Northern NV and northern CA are great compared to some of yer east coast anal retentive driving attitudes.
SLOWER TRAFFIC MUST MOVE RIGHT!
carpettbaggerr
Member
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- 1,676
What "charges" would you bring a motorist up on if they were to laser you with their gun?
And assuming the facts Makarova related are correct, how safe do you think it is to disarm a motorist in that fashion?
Reaching in through a window to remove a Glock or 1911 with a light trigger from a strong-side IWB holster? And getting your head and throat that close to a subject you consider dangerous enough to disarm? With no way to draw your service weapon, since you're reaching for his pistol with your strong hand?
Doesn't sound very bright to me.....
xd9fan
Member
I would drop the "courtesy line". This just makes it an issue for them to deal with.
Im an LEO and have only taken two Pistols from a CCW holder. Both were DUI though. A female and a male. I pulled a guy over the other night who had his 1911 cocked and locked between the seats. I gave him a warning and then the converstion turned to pistols and shooting. No problem. Its the ones that start raising hell about pulling them over that raise an eyebrow. I clocked a guy one night at 106mph who threw a friggin fit. He said his car cuts off at 100 so there was no way he coulda been doin 106. Almost had to arrest him. If the person isnt getting all riled up then i see no reason to take the gun. If they start with the JBT pig comments , punching the steering wheel etc. then im taking the gun til the stop is over. People GENERALLY look at stops two ways. One they realized they were speeding, late for work, not paying attention, etc. The other just flat out refuse to take responsibility and want to blame the cops for harassing them UNTIL someone comes speeding past their house in a residential neighbor hood while their kids are riding their bikes THEN we become no good lazy doughnut eaters who will not enforce the law and do their job. So either way we lose.
Smurfslayer
Member
Well, while the deck is heavily stacked against you it *IS* possible to get a warrant and successful prosecution on an officer in VA.
http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2006/052006/05032006/188250
I talked to the reporter, and he confirmed that it was the citizen who got the warrant on this miscreant. Sure he only got humiliated, but I'll bet the Caroline deputies are much more careful drivers now.
So, my suggestion would be brandishing, a class 1 misdemeanor
Bill St. Clair
Member
carpetbagger:
Indeed. If the driver is actually a danger to the cop, that behavior is a good recipe for a broken elbow or a crushed windpipe.
Indeed. If the driver is actually a danger to the cop, that behavior is a good recipe for a broken elbow or a crushed windpipe.
I wonder how many cops are shot during encounters with law abiding armed citizens versus cops shooting law abiding citizens by mistake or otherwise.
The problem is that so called "officer safety" has become more important than citizen safety and citizen rights.
The problem is that so called "officer safety" has become more important than citizen safety and citizen rights.
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