Pulling a bluff?

[LASur5r]

Here in soCal, I'm in L.A. county where they don't issue CCWs. That doesn't slow down the BGs though.
One day I was visiting with a high school friend in a neighborhood that went south a long time ago. We decided to go to a coffee shop about 8:00 p.m. and after catching up on history we drove back to his house. We are on the main drag (hardly any traffic) and all of a sudden we had a car running alongside, full of young men (5) who thought we were number one (showing us what they thought of us) We tried to ignore them but then they pulled out bats, etc. and started cussing us out. We tried to ourtun them but then they made handgun gestures with their fingers as they pulled up close.
Not being allowed by our illustrious county officials to carry, we figured, we were outnumbered and probably outgunned. These guys were flying their colors (gang members) and we figured that they were packing heat.
They were pulling up next to us again (I was driving at 60 mph at this time) when I yelled at my friend to reach for the water pipes that I had under the front seat. So he pulls out about a 2 1/2 length of pipe and pulled it up to his shoulder like it was a rifle and pointed it out the window.
The gang guys, pulled away so fast that they clipped the mail box on the curb corner and almost hit the nearby telephone pole as they skidded.
One of the few bluffs that was pulled to save some lives.

Anybody else had to bluff a gun to get out of a potentially deadly situation?

 

[treeprof]

Not to be too critical, but you figured they had guns, knew you didn't, and bet your life on a piece of pipe? It's gutsy, but I wouldn't risk it. If they started shooting, you're left swatting off bullets with a pipe, and they might well have now a legitimate SD shooting legal defense, since you escalated w/what appeared to be a real gun. A car is much better defensive weapon than a fake gun, and many real ones, if you were in direct fear of your life or safety. Driving to police station or populated area is prob a better idea as well. A bluff would be my last option.

 

[grnzbra]

Learn how to effectively run another car off the road. (Banging into them side by side isn't the way to do it)

 

[Penforhire]

Hmm, actually from your description I'd doubt they had guns. The dangerous gang bangers I know of don't make hand-gestures imitating guns, they go right ahead and point the real thing at you. I'd rather drive like a madman to escape than pull that bluff though.

 

[one-shot-one]

long a go

many years back i ended a road rage incident by simply leaning down, reaching under the seat and acting like i laid something in my lap, the guy who had been ticked at me and tailgating decided he was not that mad after all.

 

[CWL]

Don't know if this counts as a bluff but whilst driving home last year, I was exerting my legal right turn at the light when this upset the oncoming driver who had to slow down for me before he could make his left turn.

This resulted in him tailgating me, honking and yelling at me and finally charging up to me when we stopped at a light.

I was ready for him with my right hand holding onto my folding knife, which was still clipped to my right belt-it was ready to be drawn in self defense the second he tried to reach into my window (was planning my justifiable defense for the police report). When he ran up and saw my posture at the wheel with my right hand concealed and at 3-4 o'clock position. He held up both hands and backed away, claimed he was a 'reverend' and that I should be more careful driving. He backed to his car and drove in the other direction when the light turned green.

He didn't know what I had, but he knew that I was ready for him with something, even though I didn't have to show anything. I think that I was able to communiate to him that I was ready to respond in a manner not to his liking so he chose the smarter move.

 

[yotehunter]

Glad it worked out for you, could have gone wrong in a bad way.

 

[Hillman]

Learn how to effectively run another car off the road.

Could someone please elaborate?

 

[LASur5r]

Thanks

Thanks for the input guys.
I truly learn from your guys' opinions and criticisms.
I was just barely out of high school at the time...just got my car...couldn't have told you where the police or fire station was to save my life.
As it was, I did try to get away from these guys....made two 180's, even went down the wrong way on the main street. I had a 1958 Chevy that had seen better days....they had a much faster car and they knew the area well.
I made a lot of mistakes and you'll see in a lot of my posts, I really make a lot of mistakes, but thank the good Lord that he watches over idiots like me.
Thanks again for the good info, guys.

 

[grnzbra]

Could someone please elaborate?

It was covered by Discovery Channel in which they showed clips of a police car (I think it was when they were all using Chevy Impalas) running a straight truck (often referred to by truckers as 6 wheelers) off the road. It involves applying the heaviest part of your car against the lightest part of the target car. You must be ready to regain control of your vehicle; one of the clips showed the police car crashing because the driver didn't take corrective action.

Ayoob describes it in his book The Truth About Self Protection

Note: the Discovery Channel show pointed out that during a chase, police usually must request permission before using the techinque.

 

[GigaBuist]

The "PIT" maneuver.

I'm pretty sure I've seen the exact same Discovery channel episode. What "PIT" stands for I can't remember. Police consider this to be use of deadly force. It's not your GOAL to kill the person but you're intentionally throwing their car into an unontrollable state -- so it's considered deadly force.

Put the front 2-3 feet of your car against the back 2-3 feet of their car and push 'em over. The back wheels "break loose" of pavement and they're hosed. You're pretty screwed up too (driving wise) but in a better position to regain control.

If you're a video game guy this works well on GTA for me. It's quite fun.

 

[Diggler]

To see the PIT, just watch the Speed Channel when they're running reruns of old NASCAR races... keep an eye on the black #3 car...

 

[grnzbra]

When you shoot someone center of mass, you are not trying to kill them but to stop them even though death is the expected result. So the question becomes, are you justified in using lethal force to stop the attack?

We tried to ignore them but then they pulled out bats, etc. and started cussing us out. We tried to ourtun them but then they made handgun gestures with their fingers as they pulled up close.

Bats are deadly weapons and they were behaving in an agressive manner. The only thing missing was "ability"; it's kinda hard to hit someone with a bat when you are in a moving car and your target is in a different moving car. However, they did display the weapons in a threatening manner and by their actions implied an intention to use them when they got the opportunity (which, because they were chasing the victims as the victims tried to run away, one could assume that the group was trying to create). Then, after indicating their intention with bats, they implied that they had weapons which could be used between two moving vehicles.

Furthermore, he and his friend implies two people and a car full seems to imply at least four people. So you have a disparity in numbers which also can constitute ability.

Of course, since they were in a car, they were in control of what is in fact a deadly weapon and their behavior could lead a reasonable person to believe that they might use that to run their victims off the road.

So, should he have run them off the road? Well, the bluff worked and they drove themselves off the road so the PIT wasn't necessary, but it seems like it would be useful to know how to do it, especially in places where you can't have a real weapon.

Oh, yeah, there was mentioned in either that show or a different show, a company that creates "adventure vacations" where this is one of the things they teach you. I looked into it and found that for a little over $3000, you get a 2 or 3 day "adventure" in which they train you in some aggressive driving techniques, shooting and surveilance techniques etc and then you participate in a simulated spy scenario. I wasn't interested in an "adventure", just in learning to drive and they only provided a couple of hours of driver training. But they did teach this technique.

 

[bogie]

exerting my legal right turn at the light when this upset the oncoming driver who had to slow down for me before he could make his left turn.

Not to nitpick here, and not excusing the other driver's road rage, but if the other lane has an arrow to turn left, you're supposed to wait until the folks in the other lane who want to turn left have done so... Treat 'em like oncoming traffic that has the right of way, because they are, and they do.

 

[grnzbra]

exerting my legal right turn at the light when this upset the oncoming driver who had to slow down for me before he could make his left turn

sounds like they started out traveling in opposite directions. one person made a right turn and the other made a left turn, across traffic and came in behind him. Unless there was some other control (like a delayed green or something) the guy making the left turn should have waited.

 

[cidirkona]

After a homeless-looking man rudely asked for money while sitting on his butt as my fiance and I were entering a movie-rental business, I replied with a "no thanks" and entered.

Upon leaving he asked the same questions while still sitting, I again replied "no thanks" and walked the other direction. When I turned, he reached up to grab for my arm. I wouldn't have thought much of it, but I felt him grab and slip away from my left wrist as I pulled my arm back. A quick turn, aggressive stance and my weak hand up in a "stop" position and my strong hand behind my 4 o'clock (but not touching my firearm) was enough to get his hands back and an apology (which I wasn't expecting, but was probably a good idea to him - who had no idea if I was going to retaliate or not).

-Colin

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Weapons/lethal force bluffing is a bad idea, IMHO, unless you have the benefit of some form of ultimate safety from retribution when the 'bluff' is believed and your opposition takes appropriate action against you and is not bluffing.

Quote:
"When you shoot someone center of mass, you are not trying to kill them but to stop them even though death is the expected result."

The location of the shooting does not support nor refute the claim. It is a good PC claim, but I really doubt people buy it. Of course the same goes for shooting somebody in the head. You aren't trying to kill them, just provide the best assured stop possible. No really. That is what a head shot is, especially one that scrambles the brain.

 

[4v50 Gary]

What yotehunter says. Good that it worked but it could have backfired.

 

[grnzbra]

The location of the shooting does not support nor refute the claim. It is a good PC claim, but I really doubt people buy it. Of course the same goes for shooting somebody in the head. You aren't trying to kill them, just provide the best assured stop possible. No really. That is what a head shot is, especially one that scrambles the brain.

You're right. I wouldn't try to use it in court. However, that is the case; I want to stop him asap. If he survives, that's fine with me, but I must be justified in killing him. If he dies and I wasn't justified, I definitely won't get away with saying that I was just shooting to wound him.

In any event, I was leading into the fact that a baseball bat is a lethal weapon and, while the attackers didn't have opportunity at that point, their chasing their victims would indicate that they were trying to gain it. So, at some point, the victims would have been justified in using a gun. At the point where they are justified in using a gun, they are just as justified in using the car as their lethal force.

 

[artherd]

You 'pit' the car by hitting it aft of it's rear wheels.

It's akin to shooting someone. Once. With a low powered gun. They might be stoped, but if they're not, they'll be PISSED!



I think the ultimate moral of the story here is, learn the locations of the pollice and fire stations, and hospitals, BEFORE you start driving! Teach your kids folks!

I've driven to the pollice station twice now with some road-rager idoit behind me.


I would never try a 'bluff' unless I was absolutely certin that I had no other means of defending myself from certin death. (Ie, they're going to kill me anyway for absolute certin, and are raising the knife.)

 

[HBK]

Instead of a bluff, try the PIT maneuver.

 

[tyme]

Hey, we can armchair quarterback all day. I'd have tried to evade them, but LASur5r is alive and unharmed and the gang bangers have to pay for a new paint job (or steal another car).

Running them off the road for having bats and acting aggressively may not be the best idea. If you screw up the maneuver and end up with your car off the road and disabled, you'd be on foot against five angry gang-bangers. That's not to mention what a jury might think about running some people off the road.

 

[Firethorn]

Problem with the 'PIT' manuever

I did a little checking up, and the police perform the pit manuever using cars with special bumpers/reinforcement.

I'd really not recommend trying to force another car off the road if you aren't in a vehicle designed for it and have the training to do it. For one thing, you're almost guarenteed to cause several hundred dollars of damage to your car, and you have a good chance of disabling yourself instead of them.

I've been followed all the way to the police station before. They were tail-gating and following me. This was before cell-phones, so I changed my destination to the police station.

They usually pull off when they realize where you are, but they once got out of the car as I headed inside, looking all angry. They stopped when they realized where I had stopped. They didn't even recognize the station at first...

 

[biere]

I have a few comments on the PIT stuff.

If you watch a few episodes of cops you will see the car usually doing any banging is a crown vic if there is one around. This is a bigger and heavier car than the current smaller front wheel drive stuff becoming common at some police places. They do indeed tend to add some sort of bumper to the factory bumper, most of these still allow the air bags to work and are simply bolted on to give the bumper more area to work with rather than making it handle a hit better.

If you have some of the old battle tank cars, like 70s and older with real metal and a v8 and what not then you can play bumper cars and not have too many problems.

Many of today's cars will have problems with the radiator if you damage the grill by getting a vehicle's bumper up over yours, this is one reason the police bolt on the push bar thing to some vehicles.

I recall seeing a crown vic or something trying to spin out a big dually pick up on cops or something, the cop car spun out because he was trying a light hit instead of a serious hit.

As for being on topic, I have had to pull into either crowded lots or the police station on a few rare occasions, all road rage problems. On another occassion simply showing my cell phone and hitting 3 buttons worked, the phone was off since I was busy figuring options instead of paying attention.

The reach under the seat or to a glove box is also useful, I often do it when anyone seems to be watching me while I wait in a parking lot for someone to come out of the mall or whatever. I consider this to be acting nervous and criminals seem to dislike fidgity and nervous marks.

Overall, I have never trained on playing bumper cars but I know enough physics and enough about all the vehicles I drive to know the best way to hit something. Of course this means I think I know, never proved it and hope I never find out I was wrong.

Oh, one reason for hitting at the rear axle is because it is solid and will move the vehicle without crumpling sheet metal. If you are not careful it is possable to have two cars become attached due to crumpled sheetmetal and it is really easy to cut a tire or otherwise disable your car when hitting anything. You also are messing with the rear traction area of the vehicle, disrupt this and it becomes a spin with ease.

I prefer a big pickup with a proper home made bumper made out of c channel steel or something that will not bend easily. This works well if you should hit a deer as well which is my main concern in most cases.

I also agree with not bluffing, I only do it to make someone think a little harder about how serious they are about watching me.