Pulling the trigger in double action?

[emilianoksa]

I don't have much experience with revolvers, and have only been able to shoot them adequately in single action.

How do the principles of double action trigger technique differ from those of single action?

 

[dfariswheel]

Shooting DA is a technique that you have to learn.
It takes more practice than shooting SA, and a different set of skills.

There are a number of techniques, from "straight through" to "staging" to "Rolling" the trigger.
A good start might be to buy one of the videos from famed super-fast revolver shooter Jerry Miculek.

http://www.jerrymiculek.com/

The best way to learn to shoot DA is to SHOOT.

 

[roaddog28]

Practice and practice and more practice. Start by shooting a 7 to 10 yrds. Depending on how good your revolver is on the double trigger you can stage and then sqeeze the trigger or just pull straight. I would start with the staging technique first and then as you get better then you can try the straight through. Also, stay with lighter ammo while you are learning so you don't get into the habit of finching. This is usually the result of the recoiling of the revolver. Lighter ammo recoils less so you will finch less. This should result is better results.
But to get really good its practice and practice. It usually takes many hundreds of rounds before a you get good.

Good luck,
roaddog28

 

[sherman123]

Also dry fire practice is invaluable. Remove all live ammo from the room and practice dryfiring using snap caps. I find A-zoom to be good snap caps. Cheaper ones are known to fall apart quickly but I've dryfired the same A zooms in my .357 for over 6 months and they still hold up fine.

 

[roaddog28]

Also dry fire practice is invaluable. Remove all live ammo from the room and practice dryfiring using snap caps. I find A-zoom to be good snap caps. Cheaper ones are known to fall apart quickly but I've dryfired the same A zooms in my .357 for over 6 months and they still hold up fine.

Good point. I also dry fire alot. I have snap caps too. Dry firing is also good for breaking in a new revolver.

roaddog28

 

[ArmedBear]

Dry fire definitely helps.

Fundamentally, a DA trigger is no different from a SA trigger.

Don't sweat the different nuances of technique until you practice one thing first: squeeze the trigger all the way back while keeping the gun pointed in the same direction with the sights aligned. Follow through.

No matter what standard trigger you're talking about, that principle doesn't change. Your goal is to squeeze the trigger all the way until the gun fires, while keeping the gun aimed where you want it. A DA trigger just has more resistance and a longer travel than a SA trigger.

 

[9mmepiphany]

the DA trigger pull should be approached the same as a SA trigger pull...it's just has a longer travel before let off.

start the trigger stroke and pull slowly and smoothly to the let off point...all the time holding the aligned sights on the target. do not be tempted to hurry the stroke to "make" the gun fire...it will fire in it's own time. dry fire is your friend

slow is smooth, smooth is fast

 

[Publius1688]

I like this post-----this is an area where I'm weak and need improvement. At the range, I always pull back the trigger and shoot SA with my revolvers that can shoot DA. My personal defense weapons are all autos, revolvers are more of a 'love' thing than a 'duty'. However, I recognize that I need to get better shooting DA.

 

[ArmedBear]

My personal defense weapons are all autos, revolvers are more of a 'love' thing than a 'duty'. However, I recognize that I need to get better shooting DA.

IMHO with modern striker pistols like the Glock, XD, M&P, et al., it is very good training to be able to shoot different kinds of triggers well, even if you shoot autos primarily.

If you practice so that you can shoot a target-grade pistol, or a light revolver in SA mode, and switch over to shooting DA with a revolver, without much effort, then you're well-prepared to shoot all the other stuff out there whenever you need to.

DAO pocket autos and DAO snubbies, striker pistols, DA/SA pistols with decockers, traditional DA revolvers, XDs, Glocks, whatever you grab, you can shoot.

If anything, I think that DA training is MORE relevant today than it ever was before, due to the wide variety of triggers you might encounter in even a small collection of practical handguns.

 

[danbrew]

I thought what you thought for the last twenty years. I rarely shot a revolver in DA mode, until I decided to buy a bunch of new revolvers. I've purchased all sorts of interesting revolvers in the last two years and - to my chagrin - found that I mostly shot in SA only. Hmmm. How to solve? I tried shooting DA mode with .44s and .45s and got nowhere. I then bought a S&W 617 (10-shot 4" .22 revolver) and almost exclusively shoot that in DA mode. That practice (about 5000 rounds in two months) has taught me how to shoot in DA mode and I'm now getting better with DA on the big bores.

My suggesting? Get a small caliber .22 and practice in DA only.

 

[9mmepiphany]

you might find this thread a bit interesting as the advantages of the DA trigger pull...being able to shoot a DA trigger will make your SA shooting better

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=479645

 

[jad0110]

Dry fire practice is invaluable. Without resulting recoil, you can see EXACTLY what you are doing wrong during the trigger squeeze and, at least as important, the release. IMHO, the release is probably the trickiest part of trigger control to master, regardless of the gun. I believe this because that is where I am weakest.

If you have more than one revolver to choose from for dry fire practice, choose the one with the longest barrel. The longer barrel highlights mistakes more clearly than a shorter barreled guns. I haven't put live ammo through my 6" .38 S&W Model 14 in almost 2 years, but she gets dry fired with snap caps on an almost daily basis.

Trust me, it makes a difference. The ultimate goal is to shoot DA better than SA. It is very possible. The big advantage to DA shooting, assuming you just squeeze it (no staging), is that you are less likely to anticipate the recoil of the shot and dip the barrel of the gun, or lean into the shot, just before release. I suppose you could also call that flinching. I find it more difficult to control flinching when shooting SA for this very reason.

I always pull back the trigger and shoot SA with my revolvers that can shoot DA. My personal defense weapons are all autos, revolvers are more of a 'love' thing than a 'duty'. However, I recognize that I need to get better shooting DA.

And once you master DA shooting, like me there is a possibility that you might prefer a smooth, DA revolver trigger to all others. Not to offend Glock and XD owners, but after shooting/dry firing smooth DA revolver triggers for years, when I fire a friend's Glock or XD, I always wonder to myself that the feeling of pulling one of those comparatively mushy triggers must be similar in feel to squeezing a 2 day old cat turd .

Just my opinion, I'm not knocking anyone's gear.

 

[Wedgester]

I have some ? What are snap caps and were do you get them. Why use them over just dry fire. Thanks.

 

[Claude Clay]

it would be helpful if you had a knowledgeable shooter try your gun and than let you know hoe it stacks up. any quirks & what to expect. most at the range like to be helpful.
with time & knowledge--it will than be your turn

 

[emilianoksa]

Wow. Thanks for the great response to my enquiry.

Dry firing seems to be the way to go.

 

[Oro]

I have some ? What are snap caps and were do you get them. Why use them over just dry fire. Thanks.

if you have a firearm that has a weak firingpin design, it will prevent them breaking (like a Winchester .30-30). A 1911 or a S&W centerfire revolver do not require them for dry firing them. All rimfire firearms are going to require them.

I read about 10 years ago that one top competitor - and I can't recall who know, maybe Rob Leatham - say that of the 10,000 rounds he "fired" each week, 80% were dry fires. A light bulb went off in my head. This is the virtue of a "couch gun" - keep an empty revolver near the couch, and when relaxing at night, do 50 or so dry fires against a clear background to observe your results. You will improve very quickly.

 

[Gunfighter123]

Dry fireing your revolver at home etc. is the single best thing you can do outside of a fireing range to get better.

IMHO , useing a quality .22 revolver at the range is the second !!!!


Edit ---- A VERY OLD "trick" to shooting a DA better is to glue a cut down pencil eraser between the back of the trigger and the inside of the trigger guard ---- you want just enough of the eraser to "slow" down the last 1/4-1/8" of trigger travel before the hammer drops.

 

[Sunray]

"...have only been able to shoot them adequately in single action..." That's not unusual. Not a bad thing either. DA shooting is just different.
How well does your revolver fit your hand? To shoot DA, well, the revolver has to fit your hand better. Your finger reaching the trigger the same way it does on SA with no stress.
Had a trigger job done? The trigger job needs to be different too. A DA trigger will be heavier than the SA trigger even with a top notch trigger job. Smooth is more important than the weight, but you don't want it to be too heavy. Couple more pounds than the SA trigger.
Like dfariswheel says, it's a technique you have to learn. It doesn't work well with a heavy or rough trigger. A rough trigger feels gritty. It's actually unpolished metal moving on unpolished metal. Lube doesn't make any difference.
Changing the springs can help. Have a Ruger GP100 that I put dandy SA trigger for Bullseye shooting (it's purpose at the time), but too heavy for good DA shooting. Needs a change of springs.
Dry fire practice is a very old sight picture, trigger control and breathing training technique. Door knobs make good aiming points for either SA or DA practice. Just be sure your revolver is empty.

 

[Rexster]

Dry firing is indeed good, if done well. I have seen folks dry-firing, and doing it wrong; muzzle dipping and wavering during the stroke. Try googling: ernest langdon fear not the DA shot.

Keep in mind that the experts do not all agree on the best way to shoot DA. Some believe in rolling the finger across the face of the trigger during the stroke, and some do not. The former may prefer a narrower trigger with rounded contours and no serrations. The latter may prefer wider, flatter-faced, or serrated triggers.

I am no expert. I consider myself somewhat above average. I like the narrower, rounded trigger, no serrations, and like to be able to roll my finger across the face of a trigger.

I do think of SA and DA shooting as different skill sets, with certain principles in common.

 

[Oro]

Edit ---- A VERY OLD "trick" to shooting a DA better is to glue a cut down pencil eraser between the back of the trigger and the inside of the trigger guard ---- you want just enough of the eraser to "slow" down the last 1/4-1/8" of trigger travel before the hammer drops.

You do this to practice dry or in live fire? Presumably this is to make your last stroke harder in practice so in "live" fire you are stronger/smoother? I see how this would train you well...

Keep in mind that the experts do not all agree on the best way to shoot DA. Some believe in rolling the finger across the face of the trigger during the stroke, and some do not.

I don't think this matters that much if you are consistent and your platform is stable - what I think makes the biggest difference is this: fore-aft tension in the grip. I learned this a few years back from actually reading what Jack Weaver said about his stance from his own words, and not relying upon magazines or teachers to interpret it. He stressed a concentration upon an isometric fore-aft tension in the grip vs. "all around" or side-to-side. Press forward with your palm, and backward with your fingers on the front strap of the grip. When they are equal ("isometric"), your "platform" becomes very, very stable and more forgiving of your trigger finger pull. Practicing dry firing concentrating on these two things (fore/aft tension and consistent, linear trigger pull rearward) will dramatically stabilize your results dry or live shooting.

This works for da or sa, and with revolvers or autos. Another "Ah ha!" moment for me was when 1911 shooters kept saying they shot better with slim grips. I didn't buy this. But being scientific about it, I tried shooting with them. I shot a little better and quickly realized it was because the slim grips kept you from translating your grip pressure side-to-side, it focused it fore-aft. Slim grips were doing for us what Jack Weaver was telling us to do 40 years ago but people weren't paying enough attention to it.

Getting back to the original quote, I believe in keeping a steady contact on the trigger and bringing it back linearly - which would conflict with "rolling" it off. But you could get away with that if your grip was strong and stable enough. To me, it's all about the interaction of the two - the trigger action and the stable grip.

 

[Jim K]

Same basic rule as single action - Concentrate on the sights and squeeze the trigger.

One factor is that some makes of guns just cannot be fired well in DA. The pull is just too hard, the trigger too sharp, the action too rough, the pull weight too changeable. Some of those guns can be worked on, and some can be gotten used to, but generally a bad action is a bad action and it is best to trade it off.

Jim

 

[jad0110]

I don't think this matters that much if you are consistent and your platform is stable - what I think makes the biggest difference is this: fore-aft tension in the grip. I learned this a few years back from actually reading what Jack Weaver said about his stance from his own words, and not relying upon magazines or teachers to interpret it. He stressed a concentration upon an isometric fore-aft tension in the grip vs. "all around" or side-to-side. Press forward with your palm, and backward with your fingers on the front strap of the grip. When they are equal ("isometric"), your "platform" becomes very, very stable and more forgiving of your trigger finger pull. Practicing dry firing concentrating on these two things (fore/aft tension and consistent, linear trigger pull rearward) will dramatically stabilize your results dry or live shooting.

This works for da or sa, and with revolvers or autos. Another "Ah ha!" moment for me was when 1911 shooters kept saying they shot better with slim grips. I didn't buy this. But being scientific about it, I tried shooting with them. I shot a little better and quickly realized it was because the slim grips kept you from translating your grip pressure side-to-side, it focused it fore-aft. Slim grips were doing for us what Jack Weaver was telling us to do 40 years ago but people weren't paying enough attention to it.

Interesting.

I'll have to watch my copy of Ultimate Advanced Revoler with Jerry Miculek again sometime soon. IIRC, he practices the "all around" method of grip pressure. I wonder if either can work, depending on the anatomy of your hands and arms (shape, size, strength).

I seem to shoot about the same with either Weaver's "isometric" method or the "all around" method. Your comments about 1911 slim grips are interesting, as I shoot the 1911 platform most often using isometric push/pull technique (you really are kinda forced to), whereas I often alternate between the two with my revolvers, again, with about equal results.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Suggest you get a DA/SA 22 LR revolver. Concentrate on the sight picture as you squeeze. It'll take some practice, but you'll get the hang of it. Then go back to a bigger bore revolver.

I learned on a heavier gun. I borrowed a relative's 6" Colt Python to learn to shoot DA. The heavier barrel helped a lot for me.

Get some snap caps. Put a dot on a wall and put a dime on the top strap. Cycle the DA with your finger and try to keep the dime on it.

 

[BCRider]

I have to agree with Jim Keenan's comments a couple of posts above this one. If the trigger is smooth, like found on S&W's, Rugers or Colts, then all the comments from everyone else apply. But if this is on a cheaper brand of gun that has a hard pull and is rough then it's going to be hard to maintain a good sight picture during the pull. The hints will certainly help a lot but in the end if it's got a rough and grabby trigger pull then it will be tought to shoot well.

I'll add my own hint to help while I'm at it since in looking down the posts quickly I didn't see it. Trigger finger placement. On revolvers you want a lot of finger on the trigger. I found I end up with the trigger sitting on the folds of my last joint to pull the DA well.

Also when dry firing the goal is to keep the sight picture stable for the entire pull and final hammer fall. In particular pay serious attention to any sideways flick of the sights as the hammer releases. If the sights jump left then put your finger further through the guard. If the sights jump right then use a little less finger on the trigger. The trigger should end up pretty close to your last finger joint. If it doesn't then you may want to look at getting smaller or larger grips that allow you to hold the gun so that the trigger falls in that area of your trigger finger. I believe that Jerry Miculek commented on this aspect in one of his videos.

 

[danbrew]

Do this... load up your revolver to capacity. Shoot one or two rounds. Open the cylinder, spin in, close it, and resume shooting. You'll be *amazed* at how you flinch.

One of the great benefits of the new S&W lightweight revolvers is that they fail to fire quite frequently. Instead of getting mad, I just look at this as a bonus from the old farts at S&W and continue to fire and advance the cylinder. Hopefully (eventually) it goes boom instead of click. I've really been able to concentrate on my DA pull on a new S&W 310. And, damn, I was so ready to really love that little gun. Was out shooting it yesterday and had at least a 25% FTF result. That blows.