Question of scope quality- Leupold

[igotta40]

I have two NIB scopes on two NIB rifles that I had been wanting to get sighted in since I bought them last summer. I'm planning a hog hunt in Florida next month.

The first is a Nikon Prostaff on a RAR .270. It has nice solid adjustment clicks and I definitely see the crosshairs move in graduations on the target.

The other is a Leupold VX-2 on a Tikka T3 Lite Stainless .270. The adjustment clicks are "mushy" and crosshairs seem to move little or not at all. This is surprising to me, as I may expect from a cheap Chinese scope or some such.

Both setups were put together at the gun counter where purchased.

Anyone have similar experience or advice?

At 50 yds the RAR made a 3 shot group of 1/2", the Tikka had 3 shots almost in one hole, both shooting cheap Monarch ammo. I just can't get them to the bullseye.

 

[Sniper66]

I presently have Leupold, Nikon, Burris, and Bushnell. In the past I have also had Weaver, Redfield and a couple of others I can't recall. In my experience, every scope adjusts a bit differently. If the Leupold will not adjust properly, send it back for repair.

 

[gamestalker]

That's just silly to worry about what the turrets feel like, or how they appear to move in correlation to adjustment. Take those rifles out and sight them in, then report back as to how they do.

I have a ProStaf, it's not bad glass, I also have multiple Leupold VX-II's and other higher end one's as well, all of which will give me under 1" groups all day long. My piece of junk Rem 710 shoots one ragged hole at 100 yds. with the el cheapo Leupold VX-II, ain't nothing lacking in quality with that 3x9x40 scope, and like I said, go shoot them and see for your self.

GS

 

[urbaneruralite]

If there really is something wrong with your Leupold, they will fix it. You just want to consider all the variables first.

Having accurate turrets is one of the features that you get when you pay for more expensive scopes. Less expensive scopes still hold zero when they settle, it's just that getting them to zero is more of an adventure sometimes.

It is possible to exceed the limit of adjustment of a turret. If the optical center of your scope is farther from point of impact than the turret can move, you hit the end and turning further won't help. It may even damage. I'm not saying that is what is going on with yours, but it may be. If it is the case you'll need an adjustable scope mount that moves the ring (Redfield-style or Conetrol) or has shims (Burris Signature).

Also, if the axes of the turret adjustment is not square to center of the bore and the grid of the target, windage adjustment will have a partial effect on elevation and vice versa. If the axes are square all around, making vertical adjustments will move groups straight up and down the target, even if the reticle appears out of plumb.

With scopes that I have not proven out the accuracy of turrets and shown the axes to be square, I like to use the one shot zero method. To use the method, shoot a three shot group. Arrange the rifle such that it is firmly held with the reticle locked on the bullseye. (I use a sight vise and a ratchet strap.) While looking through the scope, but not moving the rifle, adjust the scope to move the crosshairs to the center of the group. That's it. It's usually not exactly on when you shoot a following group, but it's close enough that fine tuning doesn't rely on possibly inaccurate turrets too much.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

the newest vx2s are in a different league then the prostaff. Prostaffs are more comparable to leupold rifleman scopes in optical quality and price. Even the newest vx1 will put a prostaff to shame in low light. Ill give the prostaff this though. There mechanical ajustments and tracking are very good if not one of the best in there price range.

 

[igotta40]

Gamestalker,

Good advice and I hope to be back at the Texas City Shooting range this weekend

 

[Skylerbone]

I've never experienced a Leupold with anything but positive clicks. Id suggest getting to the range sooner rather than later and proving it out or calling Leupold about the problem. My preference for which rifle and scope to take would be both, but that Tikka combo is the one I'd prefer to field. Always bring a backup rifle if possible.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

Leupold is really lagging behind no days quality and technology wise. They seem to live by their old reputation and the fact that they WERE the military issue sniper scopes. Now days the military has dropped them and they are just now catching up with the times in reference to high end long range scopes (matching turrets/reticle).

The honest salesmen, who actually know what they are talking about, even steer people away from Leopold. I actually was looking at getting a Leopold scope when I first started shooting long range, solely based on the old reputation that they were the best but was actually talked out of it and sold a cheaper, yet better scope. There has been some serious QC issues with them for the last few years. The turrets have been horrible and the tracking has been inconsistent. In my opinion Leopold scopes are absolutely nothing more than overpriced garbage. They only belong on a rifle brought out once a year for the 3 shot pre hunt zero check and not on a real hard use rifle. For a real hard use rifle or competition gun your money would be better spent on a Schmidt & Bender, Steiner, Nightforce or Vortex Razor Gen 2.

 

[RainDodger]

I borrowed a friend's Leupold Mark 4 LR/T, 8.5-25X a couple of months ago. When he pretty much demanded that I give it back to him, I bought one. First thing I did was "box" it... shoot, move x number clicks right, shoot, move x number of clicks down, shoot, move x number of clicks left, and then up x number... you get the point. in a box pattern. It returned exactly to the original point. The glass is nothing short of amazing as well. Very bright. Yes, it's an expensive scope, but I've done the same exercise with my older Vari-X-IIIs and come up with the same results.

So... I differ with your opinion that Leupolds are overpriced garbage, but that's what makes this country a great one! We can all have opinions and state them publicly!

 

[Skylerbone]

^^^mimics my sentiments about Leupold as well. I'm not over the hill yet, don't feel they're overpriced and hunting is what I use them for.

 

[redbullitt]

I have used quite a few leupolds, and still use a couple. They are good scopes and they have always had good customer service with me. Plenty of repairs, no questions asked, as I do not baby my scopes.

Sure there are better scopes out there, but if I had a leupold only I would use it and feel fine with it. Some scopes just do not have good tactile clicks. Just how it is. Ever feel the clicks on a leupold mk 6? They are mushy, BUT it is not a functional issue. I have used the heck out of that scope and it works great... Just does not feel like a night force. I know people who complain about the clicks on a US optics Erek knob lol. Personally I like the EREK and find it to be plenty solid... again not super positive, but it is a non issue.

All personal preference I suppose.

Shoot them a bunch and dial them and box test them. THEN pass judgement.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

I borrowed a friend's Leupold Mark 4 LR/T, 8.5-25X a couple of months ago. When he pretty much demanded that I give it back to him, I bought one. First thing I did was "box" it... shoot, move x number clicks right, shoot, move x number of clicks down, shoot, move x number of clicks left, and then up x number... you get the point. in a box pattern. It returned exactly to the original point. The glass is nothing short of amazing as well. Very bright. Yes, it's an expensive scope, but I've done the same exercise with my older Vari-X-IIIs and come up with the same results.

So... I differ with your opinion that Leupolds are overpriced garbage, but that's what makes this country a great one! We can all have opinions and state them publicly!

You're right its a great country we live in that lets me purchase better optics for the money so I don't have to own something I think is sub par. I'm glad you like your Leupold scope though as I could not bring myself to buy one unless they took about 50-60% off the price to bring them in line feature to feature with the rest of the market. The box test is where I've seen the Leupolds have issues. The tracking error really shows when your dialing 13 mils of elevation for your 1250yard shot then back down to zero then back down to 8 mils then to your zero. A small error you may not have noticed in your 100-300yd box test can be enough error to cause a fairly significant miss at 1200 yards. When I test a scope I box it at 100 then 500 then run it all over the place at various targets from 100 to 1250 yards just to make sure tracking is absolutely perfect.

The reticle offerings from Leupold are horrible you get the TMR, Mildot or Horus. With other brands you get way better reticle designs like the H2CMR, SCR, MSR, P4F, or GAP. Also, what is up with the magnification ranges offered by Leupold.... Really 8.5-25? What a waste of lower magnification allowing a greater field of view. The best offering they have is the MK8 and you still get a crappy reticle for $4300-4600. I can get a S&B 5-25x56 PMII with a H2CMR using top quality German glass for less. It's pretty bad when your top end scope offers nothing over your competition's scope that is known as "the gold standard." Especially when that "Gold Standard" S&B comes at a lower price point.

Also, why is it only 2% of the top 50 PRS (Precision Rifle Series- AKA: The Major League of Tactical Precision Rifle shooters) use Leupold scopes? If they were so good wouldn't more guys want to use them to get that extra advantage over the rest of the competition?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.... Sad, because if they lowered the prices by half they probably would be the absolute best value in the scopes then. Especially if they update their reticle options.

Keep in mind we are talking high end stuff and not the typical hunting stuff. Maybe only 2% of the shooters on here would even have use for the high end glass I'm talking about as this is not exactly the forum for that crowd. Leupold seems to raise prices 200% for anything "Tactical" for whatever reason putting them out of reach of the rest of the market on a feature-value basis. The hunting scopes they offer are really not bad and the price point is a actually more competitive to the rest of that market. So, you may be doing alright going with a Leupold for your hunting rifle.

 

[nettlle]

Leupold has been around a long time so they must be doing something right. Weaver, Redfield, and Tasco didn't fare so well. I have four Leupolds and if I were to buy another scope it would be a Leupold.

 

[PowerG]

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/09/19/tactical-scopes-field-test-results-summary/

Can't say I've ever been disappointed in any Leupold I've ever owned. If I was going on an exotic hunt where scope failure was not an option it would be one of the top three brands I'd choose.

 

[taliv]

i missed where he said he box tested at a particular yardline. i do all my box testing at 100. this is what the target looks like. (I have since found a source for much bigger sheets of paper, so i can test more travel than pictured)



generally PRS shooters don't use leupold because of lack of features, primarily FFP.

mushy clicks are a problem if you aren't sure where to stop. when you can't tell if you added a click or not, or maybe half a click. Yes, the EREK suffers from this as well, but it's usable. I really don't have experience with the mk6 or 8 so i don't know how mushy they are

Although the scopes I have typically have a lower end around 3-4x, I rarely go below 8x anyway. In fact, almost never because they tunnel and so even though the mag is going down, the FOV isn't getting bigger. e.g. on my S&B PM2 5-25, it started tunneling around 7x. so even though it goes to 5x, why would you dial it?

 

[PowerG]

No box testing, he did an elevation-only test simply to compare the accuracy of the adjustments.

There are several pages of comparisons, interesting reading...the links are near the bottom in "Other Posts in this Series".

 

[taliv]

powerG, i was responding to colo's quote of raindodger. i haven't read the blog

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

PowerG, If you look at the fine print one of those Leopold scopes, and the Kahles I believe, had to be sent back due to a very large amount of error with tracking. The second Leupold did track well though (Kahles 2nd did not to be fair).

I agree Taliv I never really am under 8x either even though my particular scope does not tunnel at low magnification as it really is not needed. It's still weird to have a 8.5-25 2.94x magnification ratio. One of the guys I know who works in the optics industry told me that the 4x ratio is the easiest range to work with while maintaining optical quality and a 2.94x ratio just doesn't seem to make sense to me. I know the box test distance was never claimed by him but just assumed it was between 100-300 yards like most. I usually do an initial box at 100/200 myself but I like to take large pieces of cardboard out and have do a tracking test at 500 yards (more of a mini box test as the cardboard only allows so much adjustment at that range). I have not currently done it with my new scope but I've only been out to the range a couple times since I purchased it with one being a zero day so tracking tests will need to be completed soon.

The lack of FFP is a big deal and is a serious reason why they have not been seen in the tactical/practical world. Also, the fact they just recently started selling mil/mi, moa/moa scopes instead of ones with a mil reticle and moa turret. The thing is they now offer those features and have less shooters in 2014 at 2% than they did at 5% in 2013. It may just be the price at that point as a Leupold MK8 costs more than a S&B 5-25x PMII with your choice of reticle.

I don't know what it is, I used to have a lot of respect for Leupold and have seen a lot of good scopes produced over the years. The problems I observed first hand with them were about 4 to 5 years ago and they possibly could have been corrected. It was just so bad that the guy selling them actually talked me out of the Leupold and into buying a Bushnell (from someone else as he did not carry the model I wanted) because he was having a lot of them come back including several from a LE Contract. Maybe it is a combination of the problems I've seen and heard about as well as the ridiculous price they want you to pay for anything "Tactical" that gives me a sour taste about Leupold.

They may make decent stuff but I still stand by my opinion that you can do much better for the money as they have not seemed to keep up with the times very well and are lagging behind technology wise just riding on their old reputation.

 

[RainDodger]

Yep, I'm obviously not as knowledgeable as you guys regarding what I view as really long distance shooting. Yes, I did the box test on my Mark 4 at 200 yards. For my shooting, the Leupold optics are totally fine - for your extreme range stuff, perhaps you need better, I don't know. I do know that I can move this Leupold between rifles and re-set it each time and be within an inch or so at 100 yards after re-seating it on a rail base.

Regarding more of a general purpose hunting scope, I was considering a basic Leupold 3-9X and was instantly (and correctly) talked out of it in favor of a Zeiss in the same mag range. Much brighter and crisper picture. I'm very happy with the Zeiss.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

I really like Zeiss scopes the glass is absolutely amazing! The price tag on the high end ones is downright scary but the glass quality is second to none.

 

[Skylerbone]

I'm just not picturing the OP shooting Florida hogs at 600 yards. I'd still opt for the Leupold for the task at hand, assuming it can be repaired before the hunt. A lot of great things being mentioned but in the end you don't need $1,000 glass for the intended purpose. I place my Leupolds well above the Nikons I own and I have a number of both.

 

[igotta40]

OP here reporting back from yesterday's range trip.

My Nikon Prostaff to Leupold VX-2 comparison was interesting. The Nikion performed as I indicated in my first post, and the dials on the Leupold were not as crisp but both performed just fine.

Before going out I set mech. zero on both scopes and boresighted both rifles at 25 yds. Setting up to adjust for 100 yard both scopes worked well and I got dialed in with no issues.

I haven't shot at dawn yet, so light gathering aside, I still have to give it to the Nikon. Both performed well but the Nikon crosshairs are thinner. And the scope cost less. Just wish it was USA made.

 

[jrdolall]

For hog hunting in Florida I doubt there will be any appreciable difference in quality. The hogs I hunt in central Florida are more likely to be taken at 25 yards.
I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 500 yards anymore if I had the Hubble telescope.

 

[2000Yards]

I've put my Leupold Mark 4 through.... a lot. It's a fantastic tool - extremely reliable, repeatable, and very high quality. I'd buy another if I were in the market, without hesitation. I used customer service once and they were very thorough, completely checked out the scope and repairing the issue that I was having (faltering electronics after hard use), and they did it fast.

My 0.02.

And I've shot at 1000 yards, then in the 400's then at 800 then at 1100, then in the 200's, etc. The scope never failed to click in exactly the number of MOA's I dialed.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

They may make decent stuff but I still stand by my opinion that you can do much better for the money as they have not seemed to keep up with the times very well and are lagging behind technology wise just riding on their old reputation

sounds like an internet expert. I use my guns and scopes. there not decorations in the safe or at a fancy range. Ive been using them for 40 years. I may not be an optics expert but I know what has worked through the years. Yes the older leupolds lagged in optical performance in there price catagorys. The new ones are a different story. Id put a vx1 or vx2 up against ANYTHING in there price range for optical performance tracking, low light, ANYTHING. Lagging technology???? Where have you been. They've been upgraded at least 3 times in the last 10 years. My newest vx2s are every bit as good as my ziess conquests if not better. Now compare them in there price range and your looking at those new entry level ziess terra scopes and it doesn't take much searching to find out that optics experts don't think much of them. If ever there was a scope that road on its name its zeiss. I chuckle at guys who think that there 500 dollar conquests are somehow in the same league as real ziess optics let alone these newer terras. Problem with leupold bashers is they want to compare leupolds against the 2000 dollar high end zeiss and kalhes scopes. A 300 dollar scope isn't going to be what a 2000 dollar scope is. But what you get for your 300 bucks in a leupold today is amazing. Its as good optically as a 1000 dollar scope was 10 years ago and you also get a scope with a reputation as good as the high dollar scopes have for reliability and a warrantee that is the best in the industry.