Rail Light or Handheld?

[JTQ]

I'll admit I don't know the answer, or if there is a right answer, and certainly the right answer may vary depending on your own particular circumstances.

I use a hand held light simply because until fairly recently, none of my guns had a rail.

For lots discussion about low-light tactics, techniques, and hardware, check out this sticky in S&T:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/low-light-tactics-techniques-and-procedures.788712/

From Jeff White's OP in that thread...

If you have 20/20 vision and are leaving a well lighted area and move into an area illuminated by starlight (defined as night sky with less then half moon and no direct artificial illumination, which is called scoltopic conditions) your vision will go from 20/20 to 20/800 instantly and will remain that way for approximately 2 minutes until your eyes adapt. 20/800 is four times worse then what would be considered being legally blind. That's less them 5% of your vision in daylight.

It takes 12 minutes of dark adaptation to raise your vision to 20/300, 15% of your daylight vision. After 30 minutes of dark adaptation your vision will reach a maximum of 20/180, only a little better then being legally blind.

In these debates, I often suggest folks do some at home exercises. Each of us may come to different conclusions based on how these exercises work out.

Pick a time of the day when it is at the darkest point. With the lights in and on your house off, is it brighter outside the house or inside the house?

Another exercise, put yourself in some central point in your house, like the kitchen/living room/dining room, where a late night intruder may be. Sit in a chair and have one of your most tactically sound buddies start in any bedroom he/she wants, and start a search using either their hand held or weapon mounted 1000 lumen light using their most tactically sound search technique. Can you track your buddy as he moves through the house?

The final exercise, with all the lights in your house out, walk from your bedroom to the kitchen/living room/dining room. Can you navigate your way to those locations without a light? Next, start again in your bedroom, but this time carry your 1000 lumen light, either hand held or weapon mounted. As you step out of your bedroom, engage the light for a quick search, and then turn it off. Now continue your movement to the kitchen/living room/dining room without turning the light back on. Which was easier to navigate, the first with no light at all, or the second with an initial search with the 1000 lumen light?

 

[C-grunt]

The correct answer is both. That being said **IF** I could only have one it would be a hand held. My main CCW guns ( a S&W 442 and a Glock 43x) dont have lights and I carry a handheld everywhere I go. But my work guns and main HD guns do.

I have been clearing buildings with lights for 20 years. My current hand held is a 1500 lumen Surefire and my pistol light is a 600 lumen Surefire. My rifle light is an Arisaka Modlite OKW that's only 680 lumens but 70k candela. It has amazing reach. Even with all of that light, Ive never been blinded or had issues searching and clearing buildings. Just this week I cleared a couple 600ish square foot apartments and a small house using those lights.

If Im clearing with my pistol Im using both the weapon light and the handheld. Handheld does the most of the searching and the weapon light comes on when a threat is discovered/suspected or I need to cover an area and look somewhere else. Ive searched many structures with just a weapon light and good technique is all you need to light up what you need to see and not muzzle everyone in the vicinity. A brighter light does this better. Ive also done many many searches (probably the majority) with the handheld where the weapon light was never activated.

When using my rifle Im obviously using the rifle light. But those circumstances are usually when searching for a know violent suspect or clearing a building/area for suspected felony suspects. The rifle doesnt usually come out when Im doing a more generic search such as an abandoned building or a construction site.

 

[WrongHanded]

The only issue I have with the potential of being blinded by my own light, is if I wake from sleep and immediately activate a very bright light. My understanding is that the pupils are generally fully dilated during sleep, which makes for great night vision, but also great light sensitivity.

My tolerance for this may be less than that of others. A good way to test it would be to take advantage of a midnight bathroom trip and shine a bright flashlight around on your way. You'll find out really fast if the handheld you have is too much for night-adapted vision to handle.

 

[mavracer]

My tolerance for this may be less than that of others. A good way to test it would be to take advantage of a midnight bathroom trip and shine a bright flashlight around on your way. You'll find out really fast if the handheld you have is too much for night-adapted vision to handle.

That's exactly what I've done and why I said something earlier in the thread.

 

[JR24]

Use both for nightstand, occasionally have one on my carry but always carry a light too.

I like options.

 

[JR24]

The only issue I have with the potential of being blinded by my own light, is if I wake from sleep and immediately activate a very bright light. My understanding is that the pupils are generally fully dilated during sleep, which makes for great night vision, but also great light sensitivity.

My tolerance for this may be less than that of others. A good way to test it would be to take advantage of a midnight bathroom trip and shine a bright flashlight around on your way. You'll find out really fast if the handheld you have is too much for night-adapted vision to handle.

Good point.

I have the advantage (if it is such) of having small kids that sleep in our bed often enough that we always have some type of nightlights in pretty much every room, so there's lots of ambient light in my house.

 

[C-grunt]

I get up before sunrise. Very dark. I walk into my bathroom and turn the light on and have 5 bulbs that instantly turn on. Each light bulb produces somewhere around 800-1000 lumens. I don't have an issue because Im not looking directly at the light source. Same reason why my flashlights don't blind me.

 

[WrongHanded]

I get up before sunrise. Very dark. I walk into my bathroom and turn the light on and have 5 bulbs that instantly turn on. Each light bulb produces somewhere around 800-1000 lumens. I don't have an issue because Im not looking directly at the light source. Same reason why my flashlights don't blind me.

You and I have very different eyes. I can barely keep mine open in that kind of brightness. It's painful.

 

[C-grunt]

You and I have very different eyes. I can barely keep mine open in that kind of brightness. It's painful.

Obviously medical issues make things different and people with issues need to cater to their needs.

But as a general rule, bright flashlights don't cause issue. I work patrol for a department that has roughly 1400 officers that actually are out doing searches and what not. I'm leaving the detectives out because in reality they aren't doing this stuff on a regular basis. As a firearms trainer and the training that I am required to take regularly, I get to be around a lot of officers that I don't work around normally. Everyone is running high powered lights. Blinding yourself just isn't an issue.

 

[jeepnik]

A long time ago I ws taught a simple technique. Shoot the light. The odds are good you'll hit the guy behind it, even if only a little bit. So, put a light on my handgun with my head right behind it? No thanks. Most of the later hand held techniques also put the shooter directly behind the light. The idea of holding it up and away from the body seem sensible to me.

 

[shoobe01]

Just another to say:

1. BOTH.
   1. Handheld for searching. WML for shooting.
   2. Backups to critical things, always. Two is one. One is none.
   3. I have a few 30 minute (shorter time is brighter, they also make 5 minute) cyalumes at hand for tertiary backup for home defense.
2. No upper limit on brightness.
   1. I have mostly 500 - 1000 lumen lights. Anymore, 200 l feels weak. I wouldn't do anything under 500 today.
   2. Smarter people than me (who run 200 days of shoot houses a year, who raid for real hundreds of houses a year) have tried this and there is no such thing as too bright. Nope, not even white walls or mirrors. IIRC, it is that you have a light which is This bright but reflection is never 100% (household mirrors are rarely better than 90%) and much worse than that because you are usually hitting at an oblique angle, there are things in the way, etc.

To add on: sure, people might shoot at lights. So... shoot them faster and more accurately because you have a light on your gun. They are shooting at a glare. Oh, and most people aren't insane and shoot randomly at lights, so this only matters once the shooting starts and you have really bad people who don't care about Rule 4 anyway. Also AFAIK (I am sure, but have no references at hand) it's a myth. Shooting at the light doesn't seem to work for handguns at least, no correlation between light position and incoming fire such as back when people even taught (I had to learn it!) the arm's length light position.

 

[shoobe01]

...I often suggest folks do some at home exercises....With the lights in and on your house off, is it brighter outside the house or inside the house?...

Also fun to do this with ALL the lights off. Next time there's a power outage, try to get around the house like that, see how badly it goes (hard to test it as the neighborhood lights, streetlights, etc.).

I mean, my house has tons of lights, I have dimmers everywhere so practically the whole house is dimly lit, but following some power outage work, aside from flashlights and cyalumes, I've added glow in the dark tapes here and there (and UV flashlights strategically positioned to recharge them for long outages), so I don't fall down stairs, etc.

Also, getting further off target, look close at exterior lighting. "Security lights" are anti-security, as they are so bright they make dark spots, or if you have them sensor-on the whole area is BRIGHT then dark etc. We've got nice accent lighting that makes the house and landscaping look good, but ALSO, means all the entries (including windows, etc) are calmly lit so it's absolutely impossible to hide around the edge of the house. Not unlike the indoor night light thing, exterior threats are easy to address — and opportunistic burglars, etc. are not going to bother.

 

[JR24]

To add on: sure, people might shoot at lights. So... shoot them faster and more accurately because you have a light on your gun. They are shooting at a glare. Oh, and most people aren't insane and shoot randomly at lights, so this only matters once the shooting starts and you have really bad people who don't care about Rule 4 anyway. Also AFAIK (I am sure, but have no references at hand) it's a myth. Shooting at the light doesn't seem to work for handguns at least, no correlation between light position and incoming fire such as back when people even taught (I had to learn it!) the arm's length light position.

This is how I’ve always felt, looking at a bright light in the dark is pretty disorientating anyway, add someone shooting at you and you’re likely more worried about cover or bleeding than “shooting the light”.

 

[Anchorite]

For me, HH. I’ve read arguments for and against either, but I just can’t get past the idea of don’t point your gun at something you’re not prepared to shoot. Seems pretty darn intuitive to me. So, I can’t bring myself to use a WML. But to each his own. No criticism of others intended.

 

[C-grunt]

For me, HH. I’ve read arguments for and against either, but I just can’t get past the idea of don’t point your gun at something you’re not prepared to shoot. Seems pretty darn intuitive to me. So, I can’t bring myself to use a WML. But to each his own. No criticism of others intended.

What happens when you actually find the bad guy? You have a gun in one hand and a light in the other. How are you going to corral family members, open doors, dial a phone, etc..? Do you lower the gun and keep an eye on him unchallenged? Do you lower the light and not be able to see what they are doing?

 

[JR24]

For me, HH. I’ve read arguments for and against either, but I just can’t get past the idea of don’t point your gun at something you’re not prepared to shoot. Seems pretty darn intuitive to me. So, I can’t bring myself to use a WML. But to each his own. No criticism of others intended.

Pulse the light to the ground to get ambient light to illuminate briefly, or leave it on (again pointed safely down) to see more.

Sure, you only actually point it when you want to shoot, but it’s not hard to illuminate an area while keeping your weapon pointed on a safe direction, or at least the direction you were likely pointing it anyway while you had your handheld light looking around.

But, as you say, to each their own. I like having both available.

 

[shoobe01]

For me, HH. I’ve read arguments for and against either, but I just can’t get past the idea of don’t point your gun at something you’re not prepared to shoot. Seems pretty darn intuitive to me. So, I can’t bring myself to use a WML. But to each his own. No criticism of others intended.

Asked and answered.

1. Search with handheld.
2. Find bad guy
3. Point gun at him, WML comes on automatically for me so no step 3a there
4. Aim at bad guy, easily since he's lit up
5. Do as needed (low ready and call for surrender etc, fire as an imminent threat, whatever your UOF policy or personal risk assessment is)

In this case I indeed pointed a weapon mounted light at him because:
I am pointing a gun at him because:
I am prepared to shoot.

Sorry if I sounds snippy, but I've had this argument for 20 years and too many cannot get over it. Is it me?

Have. >1. Flashlights.
Do not point guns at things you are not prepared to shoot because they have a light on them. True. Good advice.
DO point guns at things you want to shoot in the most effective way possible. When dark and you didn't set up for a mission so don't have night vision on, that means weapon mounted white light.

(Low ready and alternative threats is why we care about the characteristics of a light, such as having adequate spill outside the hot spot, so you can aim at their waist or legs and still see their face etc. There are options, decide your expected ranges, etc).

 

[luzyfuerza]

Another exercise, put yourself in some central point in your house, like the kitchen/living room/dining room, where a late night intruder may be. Sit in a chair and have one of your most tactically sound buddies start in any bedroom he/she wants, and start a search using either their hand held or weapon mounted 1000 lumen light using their most tactically sound search technique. Can you track your buddy as he moves through the house?

This is a terrific recommendation. Those who are considering what equipment is needed to search inside their homes in low light conditions will learn a lot from it.

Inside dark dwellings, a lone defender cannot search a room or slice a pie using a flashlight without being detected. WML or HH doesn't matter. You give up the element of surprise. Searching a home, by yourself, after a "bump in the night" is the definition of a poor tactic. You only do it if you absolutely must to save human life, and you have to recognize that doing so alone puts you at real risk.

Better to use these facts against the bad guy. Hole up in a defensible place, and wait for the bad guy to come into your "Alamo". If the bad guy doesn't come in, life is good.

But if he does come in, you have to 1) quickly identify the threat he poses, and if he presents a deadly threat, 2) put rounds on target quickly. A bright WML is the right tool for this job. HH lights much less so (especially if you choose a long gun for home defense).

And mastering this simple process is actually pretty easy.


Now, teams of searchers, working together, in different environments, having access to different tools (e.g. body armor, qualified immunity, shields, flashbangs, gas, etc.) can use other tools and tactics. Having lots of low-level 24/7 lighting or being able to turn room lights on remotely changes things. Being able to see remotely via video changes the situation. Searching in bigger indoor spaces or outdoors is a completely different game. Choosing the right tools and tactics for these situations is (and has been) a topic for other threads.

 

[golden]

I have been in LE for 32 years and am still waiting for my agency to issue me my first flashlight. I got fed up and bought my own and they can be a lifesaver. Now the down side. I have never found a completely satisfactory way to use them. My agency trains you on 5 different methods to use with the gun and light held together.. None works well for me. Out in the field, I would carry my gun in frount of me in my strong hand and search with my flashlight in my week hand.
You have to be careful and not backlight yourself, so keep the light away from your body.
On my house gun, I like a light. I have some powerful flashlights and the more powerful, the better. They really can blind someone on a temporary basis when you point it in their face.
At home, I use a 3500 lumen rechargeable flashlight. At night quals, I use a 1000 lumen light and it lights up the range. It is a huge improvement over the old discount store, 2 d cell loner lights they gave out to qualify with.

Funny story. When I went through the academy in the bad old days, we were still issued revolvers, but at least they were .357 magnums. For out night training, we stood in our both, oriented ourselves and drew our revolvers, then the lights went out. No flashlights, red dots or night sights. We were told to fire one shot and the flash lit up the area ahead of us enough to see the target.
We then did it again and after sighting fired 2 more shots! Still in the dark.
While you can laugh at this, I know that it was used out in the field.

My advice, get the brightest quality flashlight you can afford and then add a gun light for your house gun. For everyday carry, get something compact, but as powerful as you can as you never know.

Jim

 

[Anchorite]

I have been in LE for 32 years and am still waiting for my agency to issue me my first flashlight. I got fed up and bought my own and they can be a lifesaver. Now the down side. I have never found a completely satisfactory way to use them. My agency trains you on 5 different methods to use with the gun and light held together.. None works well for me. Out in the field, I would carry my gun in frount of me in my strong hand and search with my flashlight in my week hand.
You have to be careful and not backlight yourself, so keep the light away from your body.
On my house gun, I like a light. I have some powerful flashlights and the more powerful, the better. They really can blind someone on a temporary basis when you point it in their face.
At home, I use a 3500 lumen rechargeable flashlight. At night quals, I use a 1000 lumen light and it lights up the range. It is a huge improvement over the old discount store, 2 d cell loner lights they gave out to qualify with.

Funny story. When I went through the academy in the bad old days, we were still issued revolvers, but at least they were .357 magnums. For out night training, we stood in our both, oriented ourselves and drew our revolvers, then the lights went out. No flashlights, red dots or night sights. We were told to fire one shot and the flash lit up the area ahead of us enough to see the target.
We then did it again and after sighting fired 2 more shots! Still in the dark.
While you can laugh at this, I know that it was used out in the field.

My advice, get the brightest quality flashlight you can afford and then add a gun light for your house gun. For everyday carry, get something compact, but as powerful as you can as you never know.

Jim

Interesting Jim, thanks. Reminds me that I’ve never seen a patrol deputy (Sheriff) with a WML in the 25 or so years I’ve been going to the courthouses in south Alabama (Baldwin and Mobile counties aka the “Redneck Riviera”).

 

[FL-NC]

Both, sort of. Unless you are very accustomed to firing a pistol with 1 hand. There's really no great way to hold anything else in a hand while you are trying to fire a pistol- also, it may be good to have that non-firing hand free to do things like use a phone, close doors, etc when you are not actually in the act of firing. Also, a secondary hand-held light source is needed too. Otherwise, everything/everyone you point your light at, you will also be pointing your pistol at. Sometimes its not appropriate to flag the world with your pistol. And, if the light on the pistol stops working, the hand held light is there as a not-ideal solution, but a better solution than not being able to see anything to shoot at. Night sights, red dots, and lasers won't help you see anything better except the sights themselves, but I definitely believe in night sights- they should probably be called "dim light sights".
On the other hand, my approach to carry outside the home is different. I carry a small handgun because in Florida its always warm, so we tend to wear jackets and such less often than most other folks. SInce I carry a small handgun, adding a light to it makes it start to grow in size. So yes, outside the home I carry a small but very bright light. Inside the home, at night, I am likely to be asleep. If something crazy happens, I will be working in near total darkness, and my eyes will not have adjusted to anything at all. Not so much the case outside of my house, even at night.

 

[Rexster]

I have been considering adding a rail light to my nightstand gun and/or carry pistol. How many lumens? Does the plusses out weigh the disadvantages?
I have night sights on one handgun and a red dot on another.

Your thoughts?
I have several handheld lights.

1. About 60 lumens will do. 1000 lumens can be better, depending upon the totality of the circumstances. The more white or other reflective surfaces are present, the less light seems to be necessary, in my opinion.

2. Having light available is a plus, if one knows how to use it. The only disadvantage of a weapon-mounted light is its bulk and weight.

3. Night sights do not help me to identify a target. If an opponent/enemy is behind me, he can see my night sights. I did not learn this from books or the internet, but, from seeing my colleague’s duty pistols’ night sights, during building searches.

3a. Red dot optics do not help me to identify a target. Moreover, with my eyes, many illuminated red dots are not dots, but a flaring, smeared mess. (Astigmatism.) Plus, if my opponent/enemy is behind me, well, he might be able to see the glow. (Red dot optics were not approved, for duty firearms, until after I retired from the PD, so, I never saw them being used, in the wild.)

One does not use a weapon-mounted light for general illumination. That is the job of the hand-held light.

My favored WMLs are the Surefire X200b and the X300-series. I keep one of my former duty pistols, a Glock G17 Gen4, near my sleeping area, with a Surefire X300 on the rail.

 

[psyopspec]

Handheld and rail mounted lights serve different purposes.

A handheld is a data gathering tool. What was that noise? Who's over there? That guy walking toward me in the dark parking garage -- what's that in his hand? Oh gosh, the dog's toy rolled under the couch again.

A WML is a threat engagement tool. Someone is breaking the door down, or shooting up the movie theater, or that same guy is coming at me in the parking garage, but I can hear him mumbling about how he's about to kill me.

A handheld can be an okay threat engagement tool, but it's suboptimal for a variety of reasons -- it takes away a hand meaning you don't get a full two-handed grip, can't easily manipulate doors, call 911, or pull loved ones to safety. Conversely, most reputable instructors would advise against using a WML as a data gathering tool without an apparent threat.

All of my HD guns wear a light. My primary carry guns each wear a light. And, I keep handheld flashlights handy at home, in my car, and on my person most of the time. I want to cover all of the purposes above, so for me the answer is "both."

I go for high lumen lights. I want the power of the sun on tap. My WMLs are a TLR 7 Sub, Modlite P350, Surefire M600 scout. Handhelds are Surefires or Modlites -- I work a job where flashlights are life saving equipment that absolutely MUST work so I don't muck about with cheap Amazon lights. I prefer simple interfaces without a lot of multiple modes or switching.

 

[drobs]

Home Defense / Wilderness - WML + handheld.
CCW handheld. I keep flashlights in each vehicle. I've given up on carrying them unless I will be out after dark.

 

[The Night Rider]

That guy walking toward me in the dark parking garage -- what's that in his hand?

Can you see where that might lead to a disasterous understanding?

I used to have to check all the city owned parking garages in Colorado Springs. I've never been in one that was so dark you couldn't see what that guy had in his hands. In fact I've never been in one that wasn't bright enough that you could sit in there and read a book at 3:00 in the morning.

Having said that, if I'm walking in your general direction and you shine a high lumen light in my face I'm going to consider you to be a threat. I would be very likely to seek cover until I found out exactly what the hell was going on.

That same guy is coming at me in the parking garage, but I can hear him mumbling about how he's about to kill me.

Is he mumbling or is he telling you to get that ******* light out of his face?

I've noticed shining a flashlight in somebody's eyes in the dark tends to piss them off and escalate situations that don't need to be escalated.