Rail Light or Handheld?

[psyopspec]

Can you see where that might lead to a disasterous understanding?

I used to have to check all the city owned parking garages in Colorado Springs. I've never been in one that was so dark you couldn't see what that guy had in his hands. In fact I've never been in one that wasn't bright enough that you could sit in there and read a book at 3:00 in the morning.

Having said that, if I'm walking in your general direction and you shine a high lumen light in my face I'm going to consider you to be a threat. I would be very likely to seek cover until I found out exactly what the hell was going on.

Is he mumbling or is he telling you to get that ******* light out of his face?

I've noticed shining a flashlight in somebody's eyes in the dark tends to piss them off and escalate situations that don't need to be escalated.

You're right, not every parking garage is a dark parking garage. Not every stairwell is dark. Not every alley is dark. Some are well-lit until they're not, then they become dark. Just because you've never been in a dark parking garage doesn't mean that they don't exist.

I've not advocated for shining a light in anyone's face. If you've taken a quality low light class from a reputable instructor, hopefully he talked to you about controlling the light. This would include not pointing it at places where it shouldn't go, such as someone's face. It would also include "splashing" the beam to provide general illumination in a given space. But yes, shining light's in someone's face for no reason is rude. Which is why it's a good thing no one has advocated for that.

The example I threw out about object in hand + verbal threat was meant to set the initial conditions of the encounter. So no, he's not mumbling at me to get the light out of his face, which no one has said that one should have pointed there in the first place since there's no reason to do so.

 

[The Night Rider]

You're right, not every parking garage is a dark parking garage. Not every stairwell is dark. Not every alley is dark. Some are well-lit until they're not, then they become dark. Just because you've never been in a dark parking garage doesn't mean that they don't exist.

I've not advocated for shining a light in anyone's face. If you've taken a quality low light class from a reputable instructor, hopefully he talked to you about controlling the light. This would include not pointing it at places where it shouldn't go, such as someone's face. It would also include "splashing" the beam to provide general illumination in a given space. But yes, shining light's in someone's face for no reason is rude. Which is why it's a good thing no one has advocated for that.

The example I threw out about object in hand + verbal threat was meant to set the initial conditions of the encounter. So no, he's not mumbling at me to get the light out of his face, which no one has said that one should have pointed there in the first place since there's no reason to do so.

I understand the whole concept of Never Say Never but again going by my experience actually working in parking garages they hire maintenance people to go around and change light bulbs all the frigging time.

In all the parking garages in Colorado Springs I've ever been in there was only one, on the north side of the T. Rowe Price Building, that had a dark section. And as a matter of fact that's where I used to park so my coworkers couldn't see me getting in and out of the car.

So, if you get the chance, I'd like you to do an experiment for me. Go find a parking garage in your city. Park in it after dark. Shine a flashlight in the general vicinity of the first person that walks towards you in any context and get back to us on what happens.

I've never pointed a flashlight at another person outside of the context of being at work. Being hired to provide security for whatever location I was in and authorized to be checking people out who were there.

I've also never pointed a flashlight at another person and not received an immediate negative response.

I've never even seen a cop do it unless they were making an official contact with somebody.

I'm not saying it's not a legitimate technique. I am not saying that it's never necessary. I am saying that it's going to escalate whatever situation you introduce it into

 

[psyopspec]

I understand the whole concept of Never Say Never but again going by my experience actually working in parking garages they hire maintenance people to go around and change light bulbs all the frigging time.

In all the parking garages in Colorado Springs I've ever been in there was only one, on the north side of the T. Rowe Price Building, that had a dark section. And as a matter of fact that's where I used to park so my coworkers couldn't see me getting in and out of the car.

So, if you get the chance, I'd like you to do an experiment for me. Go find a parking garage in your city. Park in it after dark. Shine a flashlight in the general vicinity of the first person that walks towards you in any context and get back to us on what happens.

I've never pointed a flashlight at another person outside of the context of being at work. Being hired to provide security for whatever location I was in and authorized to be checking people out who were there.

I've also never pointed a flashlight at another person and not received an immediate negative response.

I've never even seen a cop do it unless they were making an official contact with somebody.

I'm not saying it's not a legitimate technique. I am not saying that it's never necessary. I am saying that it's going to escalate whatever situation you introduce it into

It sounds like you're speaking out against randomly shining lights on people and object for no reason. While I happen to agree, I'm a little confused. Are you sure you're meaning to respond to my post? If so, can you highlight the part where you thought that's what I was recommending? I'd very much like to clarify if I misspoke in some way.

Flashlights are like guns in a way. They should only be used under certain circumstances, when needed and when appropriate. If you thought I was saying otherwise, I apologize for not having been clearer.

 

[The Night Rider]

It sounds like you're speaking out against randomly shining lights on people and object for no reason. While I happen to agree, I'm a little confused. Are you sure you're meaning to respond to my post? If so, can you highlight the part where you thought that's what I was recommending? I'd very much like to clarify if I misspoke in some way.

Flashlights are like guns in a way. They should only be used under certain circumstances, when needed and when appropriate. If you thought I was saying otherwise, I apologize for not having been clearer.

Let me say it this way the impression that I got from what you said is if some person is walking in your direction and you shine a light in their Direction not in their face to see what's in their hands.

You didn't mention anything in what you were saying that led me to believe that the person had already engaged you or was speaking to you or otherwise interacting with you.

Based on what you wrote I got the impression that you're just randomly lighting people up in the parking garage

Under what circumstances would you illuminate another person in public?

 

[psyopspec]

Let me say it this way the impression that I got from what you said is it some persons walking in your direction and you shine a light in their Direction not in their face to see what's in their hands.

You didn't mention anything in what you were saying that led me to believe that the person had already engaged you or was speaking to you or otherwise interacting with you.

Based on what you wrote I got the impression that you're just randomly lighting people up in the parking garage

Under what circumstances would you illuminate another person in public?

Oh wow. Yeah, I definitely didn't do a good job of conveying my point. To nutshell it: A handheld light should be used as a data gathering tool when one reasonably believes that more data is warranted to help them gain information that could greatly impact their safety.

 

[The Night Rider]

Oh wow. Yeah, I definitely didn't do a good job of conveying my point. To nutshell it: A handheld light should be used as a data gathering tool when one reasonably believes that more data is warranted to help them gain information that could greatly impact their safety.

As long as you understand that regardless of what the situation is, there's a high likelihood that shining a light on somebody's going to escalate the situation.

I've never taken a tactical flashlight class. As I said I worked as a security guard for 15 years before I retired but that's not the same thing as being a random person.

If you're walking towards me in a parking garage and I'm working there I every right to stop you and ask you what you're doing. Of course if I was off the clock it was none of my business and it was liable to start an altercation.

I will say that every single time I had to approach a vehicle at night I lit it up. But as I mentioned in my other post even though I was within my rights I always got a negative reaction.

One night I was walking along the fence line after dark and I caught my supervisor trying to sneak up on me to make sure I was doing my rounds. I lit him up good and he got pissed off too.

But I just cannot come up with a single time in those 15 years did I needed a flashlight to identify a threat. And what I mean by that is that I knew they were a threat before I needed my flashlight.

I can only think of one time and I was out in the middle of nowhere that I had to draw my gun and there wasn't sufficient ambient light for me to see the sights

 

[psyopspec]

As long as you understand that regardless of what the situation is, there's a high likelihood that shining a light on somebody's going to escalate the situation.

I've never taken a tactical flashlight class. As I said I worked as a security guard for 15 years before I retired but that's not the same thing as being a random person.

If you're walking towards me in a parking garage and I'm working there I every right to stop you and ask you what you're doing. Of course if I was off the clock it was none of my business and it was liable to start an altercation.

I will say that every single time I had to approach a vehicle at night I lit it up. But as I mentioned in my other post even though I was within my rights I always got a negative reaction.

One night I was walking along the fence line after dark and I caught my supervisor trying to sneak up on me to make sure I was doing my rounds. I lit him up good and he got pissed off too.

But I just cannot come up with a single time in those 15 years did I needed a flashlight to identify a threat. And what I mean by that is that I knew they were a threat before I needed my flashlight.

I can only think of one time and I was out in the middle of nowhere that I had to draw my gun and there wasn't sufficient ambient light for me to see the sights

Escalation -- Depending on context and use, it may indeed be a move to gain more control over a situation in a way that's reasonable and appropriate. It's not completely dissimilar to the notion that introducing a gun into an encounter is an attempt to gain control over a situation, fight back against force, or monopolize force in a given encounter.

Training -- I tend to advocate quality training. It's not my place to tell you how to conduct your life. For me, if I worked security at night I would to have the knowledge and tools that allowed me to live with a reasonable degree of safety and do my job well.

Negative reaction -- Now that you mention it, I believe the use of a light may have been instrumental in heading off one or two potentially negative encounters over the years. Walking down a dark sidewalk in Mexico with foot traffic coming the other way tingled the spidey senses, I once shined a bright light just a few feet in front of me as if I were making sure the path were clear. The other party crossed the street. But yes, the fact there is generally going to be a response to a stimulus is not only expected, but counted on. All the more reason to use a given tool reasonably and not randomly. (Are you as glad as I am that no one has advocated for such?)

 

[The Night Rider]

Training -- I tend to advocate quality training. It's not my place to tell you how to conduct your life. For me, if I worked security at night I would to have the knowledge and tools that allowed me to live with a reasonable degree of safety and do my job well.

I mean, I'm alive and I made it to retirement.

The best way I can describe what I did for a living is to say I spent six or seven years driving around Colorado Springs in the middle of the night alone , interacting with Petty Criminals and crazy homeless people.

This might surprise you but I learned a thing or two along the way.

You do you Boo

 

[psyopspec]

I mean, I'm alive and I made it to retirement.

The best way I can describe what I did for a living is to say I spent six or seven years driving around Colorado Springs in the middle of the night alone , interacting with Petty Criminals and crazy homeless people.

This might surprise you but I learned a thing or two along the way.

You do you Boo

Why would you say that?

 

[The Night Rider]

Why would you say that?

It would help if you were more specific about what you're asking.

You made specific comments about getting training to help me stay alive and do my job better.

I worked in low-light conditions almost my entire "career", I stayed alive doing it. Never took a low-light class or a WML class or used a WML. I didn't die and I was never seriously injured.

I would call that a success

 

[CDW4ME]

My thoughts, after what I do.
I do not have a light on my EDC, it (usually) does have a red dot.
The Glock I carry (Glock 17/22/34) is what is handy at night; I also have a flashlight handy.
The gun I carry outside the house is what I would rely on inside the house; incapacitation difficulty of threats not perceived to be less/more based on location.

I think there are some* that select a carry gun based mostly on whether it fits into a pocket; like my Glock AIWB they probably don't have a light mounted on it.
Unlike me some* of those may be inclined to post, "a handgun is for fighting your way to a rifle or shotgun" Maybe in their house that might apply, but...
Same as me, when they are out in public shopping, at a restaurant, in a parking lot, they will successfully (or not) defend themself with the handgun they have on them.

*Some - if one pocket carries and my comments don't apply to you then you were not included in some; no need to quote and correct me.

 

[The Night Rider]

no need to quote and correct me.

That takes all the fun out of it

 

[tactikel]

Ideally I’d use both. Hand held to locate intruder (held in weak hand, off body). My only concern with a WML is that to see your intruder you have to point your weapon at him. Imagine hearing a door being kicked in at 3am, running downstairs with a WML and lighting up a LEO responding to a “Swatting” bogus call.

 

[Space Ghost]

Both.
Weapon mounted for the obvious + you can search with the spill.
Hand held for all the times (way more often) you'll need a light, but not the weapon.

 

[roo_ster]

ASSSUMING HOME DEFENSE WITH PISTOL
1. Hand held > WML

2. 100 lumens is about tops for a HD light, weapon-mounted or otherwise.

========

WML ADVANTAGES: APPLICABLE FOR HD?
Let me get the WML advantages out of the way, first. Yes, in shoot houses & especially outside at longer ranges, high-lumen (>100 lumen) WMLs are superior. As the round count goes up, and the distances get farther, the WML rises to the top. The WML will generally help with precision at distance and be more forgiving of shooter fatigue when many rounds are fired. Maybe I am just too poor for this ride, but most shoot houses I have run have LARGER rooms than any I live in and their ceilings are higher, if they exist at all. Shoot houses are designed according to requirements and one of those requirements is usually to accommodate a TEAM of shooters.

Thus, the powerful (high lumen) hand-held or WML advantages are not needed/critical for my HD tasks. And the likelihood that I am shooting so much as to become fatigued and require numerous mag-changes approaches zero. Those who live in mansions or warehouses or want to use their WML to scan large bits of property may come to another conclusion.

Of course, "Both" gives maximum flexibility & options, but hand-held light by itself is much more flexible than a WML by itself. Now you have to buy two lights that are reliable enough for the task.

My everyday after-dark utility light is also my weapon light (Streamlight Polytac X USB). Matter of fact, that make/model is my go-to light for my automobile emergency kit, too. Just good bang/buck & convenience. I wake up in the night to check things out, head out to the shed, let the dogs out, etc. so many more times than I get up with any worry necessitating a firearm that it is probably 100:1. Dragging a pistol or shotgun with WML on those excursions is contraindicated.

HIGH LUMEN DISADVANTAGES
There can be too much of a good thing (lumens). Too many lumens in close confines will not only cost the user his night sight, but the reflected glare can blind the user when placed on-target or anywhere near horizontal. Even if the high lumen light is directed at floor/ceiling most time and only brought on target to fire. I found this out when I bought my second Surefire TLR-1 WML for shotguns. The first TLR-1 I bought Lo, more than a decade ago. It was hot stuff at 100 lumens. The second I bought more recently and is around 800 lumens. I slapped it on my second HD shotgun and proceeded to practice clearing the house..for a few seconds until I found the reflected glare of the 800 lumens was blinding me. That was cured with the Streamlight red filter flip-cap (flick of a thumb and you get usual light), which moderated the output. Lesson learned. The same thing is a problem with hand-held lights. My preferred light (see above) is set up such that the switch will cycle first to LOW and go to HIGH on the second tap (I eliminated flashing function). I also have a green filter flip cap for it (max lumens in the 500 range). When I am poking around the house/yard at night, LOW+green or red filter preserves my night sight while letting me avoid tripping hazards, etc.

=======

HTH. Plenty of other good pro/con points made by other posters. YMMV, and all that jazz.

 

[psyopspec]

It would help if you were more specific about what you're asking.

You made specific comments about getting training to help me stay alive and do my job better.

I worked in low-light conditions almost my entire "career", I stayed alive doing it. Never took a low-light class or a WML class or used a WML. I didn't die and I was never seriously injured.

I would call that a success

I see. I didn't mean to rag on you whatsoever. I think we have differing thoughts on training and when it's useful. I've survived 3 deployments and a couple of civilian incidents in the states. Yet I still train every year, because I still have curiosity and a desire to learn. Perhaps one day that will change, but at my current rate no number of years or experiences will get me to the point where I know it all.

 

[The Night Rider]

at my current rate no number of years or experiences will get me to the point where I know it all.

Are you trying to be deliberately antagonistic?

 

[psyopspec]

Are you trying to be deliberately antagonistic?

No, but I see what you mean. If you'll let me rephrase -- I have yet to reach a point where training has such a diminishing point of return that it's no longer worth my while. First hand experiences sometimes solidify existing views that I have, and other times they change my mind on things. Aside from check-the-block CCW courses, I've never found training to not be worthwhile as long as it was properly matched to my skill set.

I took the gist of your comments to mean that bc you've never experienced a certain pattern IRL, it wasn't worth pursuing further with training. Perhaps I've read that wrong. In my case, simply bc I have real world experience with a given thing does not preclude my getting further training related to that same thing.

 

[Rodfac]

I have a mounted light on my Sig P226 (TLR-1 IIRC) which works well with indirect lighting of potential threats; i.e. you don't need to point it directly at an area. The pics are a good representation. Rod

 

[luzyfuerza]

I first responded to this thread over a month ago. I realized that it had been quite a while (maybe a couple of years) since I've practiced shooting at night with a handgun. I also realized that I hadn't yet shot my new green-dot-equipped EDC at night. So, I took advantage of the recent super-moon nights and went to my range for a little practice in the dark.

I do not use a rail-mounted flashlight on my EDC, but I do carry a handheld. So, if I were to need to use my EDC out and about in low-light conditions, I would have to use the Harries or Rogers techniques. I practiced both. Of course, they're a little better than shooting one-handed, but not by much.

I started with the gun at the low ready with the light off. Then, turn the light on, quickly identify the threat in the spill, point in, align sights, and fire.

After shooting, I practiced keeping the light on the target, following the "bad guy" to the ground, checking for other threats six feet to the right and to the left, and then turning the light off and then MOVING!

In general, many of my shots went low. I found my eye focusing on the front sight rather than seeing the dot. And the improvised Harries and Rogers grips were less than perfect. I need more practice here for sure.

I also found that when the handheld was on, the daytime intensity setting of the green dot was just right.


I then installed a rail-mounted light on my EDC. I believe that HD guns should have a mounted light. Compared to the Harries and Rogers, using a rail-mounted light is so easy that, like @Chuck R. wrote:

It's like cheating.

With the better grip, my splits were much faster and holes in the target much better centered.



I then practiced searching. With both handheld and mounted lights, the procedure is like this: light on, search right-to-left or left-to-right (one direction only) for two seconds or so, turn the light off and MOVE! With a handheld light, your search should center the light at about waist level. With a weapon-mounted light, the beam should be centered lower, so your pistol doesn't cover anything that shouldn't be shot. Look for weapons in the waist and in hands.

While searching, do NOT start the flashlight at your feet or the ground in front of you and bring it up to the line you're searching. This would paint a line directly to your location. Moving after you turn your light off is essential.


I also practiced administrative tasks.

To verify the gun is unloaded, I lock the slide back, and check the chamber and mag well by feel to make sure they're empty.

To perform a chamber check, I pull the slide partially back with the non-dominant hand, thumb pointing toward my body, and feel for a brass case in the partially-open ejection port using my pinky finger. This takes a little practice. The first few times, do it in the light.

To get an idea approximately how many rounds are left in a magazine, I check its weight (learn what a full and empty magazine feel like), and also push down on the top round (the top round will go down easily if the mag is about empty, and will be difficult to press down if it is full).

Clearing malfunctions in the dark is not much different than clearing them in the light. Except that you have to differentiate between type II and type III malfunctions by feel.


It was great to get out to practice these techniques! Like I wrote before, fighting at night with a handgun is much more than just answering "handheld or WML?"

Disclaimer: don't try any of these activities in the dark until your trigger and muzzle discipline are 100% automatic. And, the first time, go with someone who has already mastered these skills.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Freebie bonus training/practice points:

If you need to quickly stow your HH, put it in your armpit.

If your HH has a push-button on-off switch, turn it on either using either a partial depression of the button, or click it twice and hold after the second click. If you drop the light, you don't want it to stay on, potentially illuminating you.

Shooting at night is a good opportunity to see the muzzle flash of your carry ammo. Muzzle flash can be disorienting. But it also illuminates the alignment of your iron sights at the moment the shot breaks (a "flash sight picture"?). I think that less flash is better.

Take a low-intensity flashlight (maybe a headlamp with a red led setting?) to the range to use while hanging, checking, and pasting targets, etc. It won't ruin your night vision like a powerful light would if used for these tasks. As an alternative, cover the lens of your powerful light while your partner does these tasks.

If you're shooting with a group, hang glowsticks on all participants.

Be at the range as the sun sets or as dawn breaks to test the utility of tritium night sights. My experience has been that tritium sights by themselves are only useful for about ten minutes in the morning and ten minutes in the evening away from the light pollution of civilization. In more urban environments, they may sometimes provide a little more benefit. But they never take the place of a HH or WM light.