RE: My question concerning the 357 lever action rifles

[the357plan]

Originally posted by KimberLover:
Just think, if your magazine held 10 357's, how many 38 supers would it hold?
I know the ballistics on the bullets and there is very little difference depending where you look.

Although the 38 Super’s 124 gr ballistics get close to the run-of-the-mill (not heavy) 357 Mag ballistics out of pistol length barrels, I think you'll be disappointed if you're expecting the gain a 357 Mag gets when fired from a carbine length barrel.

However, I see nothing wrong with having a companion carbine chambered for any of your favorite handgun cartridges. It looks as though a Marlin, like 1858's, might work if you re-chambered it for 38 Super and everything that entails (or just let a gunsmith convert it).

 

[Leadhead]

I'm curious as well?
Why? I'm all for everyone doing as they see fit as long as it isn't negatively effecting others....but I'm curious what your motivation is?
Something to do is a good enough answer as far as I'm concerned but maybe there is another reason?

 

[KimberLover]

Re Leadhead and 1858.....

First, 1858: I got your message. You should have my email and when I get your answer, I will immediately follow up.
LeadHead: I have always been one to try something that interests me. Once I had a deep desire to learn how to cast. That itch came from a local machine shop that did brass and alum. casting. After I closed my business, I retired to Old Salem.org. I bought a 200 year old house there. (The Christoph Vogler House)
The symbol for OS was a coffee pot. I made my first christmas tree ornament out of wood and copper wire using my wood lathe.
It took two years of failures before I managed to perfect the casting dies for the 2 1/2" tall pewter coffee pots.
I made 600+ and donated the first 250 to Old Salem for a fund raiser as table gifts.
What I am getting at is: Why not try it if you have any idea that it just might work or that you can maybe achieve it. You see, taking a chance with the S&W's proved that it will work in a 357. But my curiosity does not end there.
I had no idea if the extractor in a Lever action would remove the spent shell and 1858 answered that along with solving the missed answer of "would it feed the 38 super" and I had never even thought of that.
I am very happy that there are others that are willing to take a chance to step up to the plate and say I'll give that a try too!
I can remember when the 357 came out and it was well after the 38 super. I'll never understand why the 357 would overtake the 38 super as the 38 super was shorter, you could pack more in a magazine and they were just short of the 357 on power.
I have nearly got down on my knees and begged Ruger to build a 38 super revolver.
Once I read where several gunsmiths were trying to convert the Browning Hi Power 40 caliber to 38 super. The failure was the spring that kept collapsing and that endeavor was lost.
I hope I answered you question.

 

[R.W.Dale]

You can have a fully functional 38 super long gun at your door in a few weeks with no modification required or questions about reliability.

Call MGM up and order an encore barrel in 38 super. I had them build a 9mm bbl that was tremendous fun to shoot




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[35 Whelen]

Forgive me if this has been addressed: headspace. The 38 Super headspaces on the mouth of the case, so even if it would chamber, it won't headspace properly.

I'm the first in line when it comes to trying new things and am an ardent experimenter when it comes to firearms, shooting and especially handloading. That said, it'd be folly to pay $380 for 1000 rounds of 38 Super ammo to shoot in a .357 rifle when for the same money, you can buy a good used reloading set up and enough components to load 1000 rounds of .357. Thereafter you can load .357's for under $10 a box.

35W

 

[MCMXI]

Forgive me if this has been addressed: headspace. The 38 Super headspaces on the mouth of the case, so even if it would chamber, it won't headspace properly.

The original .38 ACP that the .38 Super was based on headspaced on the semi-rim so why wouldn't it work the way it was originally designed? KimberLover has shot .38 Super rounds out of his S&W .357 Mag revolvers so the case would have to headspace on the semi-rim and clearly it worked. Also, couldn't a .38 Super reamer be used to cut a .357 Mag chamber such that a .38 Super round would headspace on the case mouth? The .357 Mag chamber tapers from .3809" to .3801" whereas the .38 Super chamber tapers from .3887" to .3870".

 

[KimberLover]

RE: 35 Whelen

You are surely advanced when it comes to reloading.
I however would be totally lost!
Why? Because I have never been associated with anyone that reloaded and know very little about it.
I want to enjoy my shooting experience and do not wish to get involved in something that is unknown to me, and reloading is just that.
I can't help but remember the 44 that exploded from an overloaded powder charge by a reloader.
Then to top it all off, our range owner will not allow reloads to be shot in his building along with those copper coated metal bullets that are sold.
Man! You talk about coming unglued, he can really get upset about that. Must be the damage that his backstop takes from that junk.
I know you could set me straight on reloading, but to be honest! I'm just not interested.
I love my 38's, 38 super's and 357's, I just wish I could get a good lever rifle that would complete my peculiar whim.
OK, so there is another reason I have for persuing this project, here goes....
I had 7 AR15's and sold them. Two reasons: One the range owner had to shut down his outdoor range due to complaints from the surrounding neighbors.
Two: My health took a change for the worst and my chest was opened up. The doctor said no more shooting high powered shoulder weapons unless I wanted him to put the staples back in for me.
I don't think 38 super is considered high powered for a shoulder weapon.
If it is, the doctor better get his staple gun ready.

 

[35 Whelen]

You are surely advanced when it comes to reloading.
I however would be totally lost!
Why? Because I have never been associated with anyone that reloaded and know very little about it.
I want to enjoy my shooting experience and do not wish to get involved in something that is unknown to me, and reloading is just that.
I can't help but remember the 44 that exploded from an overloaded powder charge by a reloader.
Then to top it all off, our range owner will not allow reloads to be shot in his building along with those copper coated metal bullets that are sold.
Man! You talk about coming unglued, he can really get upset about that. Must be the damage that his backstop takes from that junk.
I know you could set me straight on reloading, but to be honest! I'm just not interested.
I love my 38's, 38 super's and 357's, I just wish I could get a good lever rifle that would complete my peculiar whim.
OK, so there is another reason I have for persuing this project, here goes....
I had 7 AR15's and sold them. Two reasons: One the range owner had to shut down his outdoor range due to complaints from the surrounding neighbors.
Two: My health took a change for the worst and my chest was opened up. The doctor said no more shooting high powered shoulder weapons unless I wanted him to put the staples back in for me.
I don't think 38 super is considered high powered for a shoulder weapon.
If it is, the doctor better get his staple gun ready.

The rim on the Super appears to be quite a bit thinner which would put the primer further from the firing pin. Maybe if your firing pin protruded far enough it might work...who knows?

Yes, I've been loading for most of my life, but when I started I too was lost. Anyone who can read, can handload. Too bad about the idiot who blew up the pistol, but then again, there are far more dangerous things we do day to day.
I promise you're more likely to be injured in an automobile accident, lighting your barbeque grill, fueling your car while the moron at the next pump smokes a cigarette, or recieving anesthesia than your are shooting handloads.

The range owner of whom you speak is obviously very uninformed. You're telling me he comes unglued from copper jacketed bullets, or copper coated lead bullets? Jacketed bullets do WAY more damage than lead or copper coated lead bullets.

If you just WANT a .38 Super lever rifle, I have no doubt that somebody could build or convert one for you. Like others have said, feeding a short round such as that through a lever rifle would be a challenge.

35W

 

[CraigC]

I have a friend who went to great pains, labor and no little expense to build a Model 94 Winchester in 357SIG.

Which makes about as much sense as this idea here. It's rare that I try to talk somebody out of building a custom gun but it just makes no sense to me. I reckon there has to be something gained, other than just novelty.

 

[MCMXI]

Lever actions rely on the rim to interrupt cartridges feeding from the magazine. And trust me they are sensitive to undersized rims.

Cases jumping past the interrupter will result in a jam of epic proportion.

I was able to obtain some .38 Super ammunition yesterday. Even though this lot of Winchester ammunition (.3795" O.D.) chambered easily in my Marlin, once I loaded five or six rounds into the magazine tube and worked the action I did indeed have a "jam of epic proportion". Feeding from the magazine might be the single biggest challenge in using .38 Super in a .357 Mag lever action, but maybe KimberLover is up to that challenge.

 

[mavracer]

A good smith could probably modify a lever to feed 38 super but it would probably be at the cost of not being able to cycle 357s.
A good smith costs $$$ it's gonna take a lot of shooting saving a buck a box to pay a gunsmith for a couple hours.
Not trying to rain on your parade but it seams "penny wise and dollar foolish"

 

[R.W.Dale]

I thought about kimberlovers quest and if he just has to have a repeater (I still think an encore is his best bet) the best way to build one would be to take a Marlin camp 9 and 45 and combine them with a little machine work into a camp38.

Why?

Because a camp 45 uses 1911 magazines




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[KimberLover]

Mixing in the feed tube..

I spoke with 1858 and asked if he would try to mix some 38 supers with just plain 38's, or mix 38's with 357's.
There is a reason for my request....If one can mix 38's and 357's in the feed tube then one might possibly mix 38's and 38 supers.
If one can shoot 38's and 357's in the Marlin, then I'm wondering if a little smithing would not make the 38 super an acceptable round.
Shucks, I'd be happy if I could alter the transfer mechanism to just feed 38 supers. Maybe I should have asked 1858 to fill the feed tube with 38 supers by themselves.
I am sure I could smith that Marlin to accept 38 supers on my own.
The most that could be lost would be the transfer piece.
Problem is....I can't seem to locate a 1894CSS Marlin right now.
Then again I don't want to get to hasty until 1858 finishes his test run on the mix of bullets.
The box of 38 supers that I sent 1858 has some Remington and Winchesters mixed with the Aguila's. I could find no difference in the diameters of and of them.
I read where one person testing the speed of the 357 found that there was an increase of 300 fps when a long barrel was used in testing.

 

[CraigC]

...it seams "penny wise and dollar foolish"

I agree.

 

[MCMXI]

Maybe I should have asked 1858 to fill the feed tube with 38 supers by themselves. I am sure I could smith that Marlin to accept 38 supers on my own.

I tried that and had R.W.Dale's "jam of epic proportion". I picked up some .38 Spl 158gr ammunition and will try alternating .38 Super and .38 Spl. I have a Marlin 1894CSS but other than being stainless it's the same as other 1894s chambered for .357 Mag so you can expand your search. By the way, have you SEEN the price of Marlins on GunBroker? Who would pay so much for an 1894CSS?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=330834352

 

[mavracer]

I'd start with a Rossi that way it'll be easier to clear the jams do to the larger top opening and more direct access to the magazine and the saddle ring will give you a place to keep the screwdriver to clear jams, plus when you figure out that it was a really bad idea to start with, and now it won't feed anything right, you'll have only screwed up a Rossi.

 

[VA27]

The hang-up (a little joke, there) with the Marlin action is that the shell lifter doubles as the cartridge stop. Too short of a cartridge allows the head of the next round in the mag to protrude out of the mag and thus block the lifter from rising to feed that round into the chamber. It might be possible to drill and tap the lifter for a set screw that would stop the Super at the correct position. Of course mixed feeding would be impossible, it'd be an either/or proposition.

 

[MCgunner]

Because it's there. I have a friend who went to great pains, labor and no little expense to build a Model 94 Winchester in 357SIG. He got it to work, but never got it to match 357 Mag ballistics out of the longer barrel. Some folks just have to have a quest.

Well, duh. LOL It's got half the powder capacity and shoots faster powders. That's the whole reason a hot loaded .357 magnum simulates a weak loaded .30-30 from a 20" rifle barrel, it's the powder burn rate.

Out to 50 or 75 yards, the .357 is like shooting a .35 Remington light. It's really a whole nuther gun than from a Revolver. I get up to 1900 fps from a 165 grain bullet using Lil Gun. I've not played with 158 grainers, but Buffalo Bore lists one at 2200 fps from an 18" Marlin! That's barkin' at the heals of the .35 Remmy/.30-30, but the bullet doesn't have a very good BC, so it falls off quick making it a 100 yard deer/hog gun for me.

You ain't gonna get that sort of power from a .38 super, either. Not nearly enough case and too fast a powder.

 

[KimberLover]

Jam of epic proportion....ugh!

Re 1858's jam: Sorry about that my friend. I guess that without a mod like VA27 thinks may be possible, maybe this is better left alone for now.
At least we have learned something.
Most of us know now that the S&W 357's will handle the 38 super.
I have a SS 22 pump that has a bullet lifter that will only deliver a 22 LR to the barrel.
Without seeing the 1894 lifter, I bet they are similar, so I can invision VA27's idea and I can certainly understand how the jam would occur.
I get 1858's message, the 1894's are to expensive right not to experiment with.
Maybe I'll find one at an auction or somewhere, but I will certainly not give up completely.
Hey! It was interesting at best. We managed to get to this point and make some friends to boot!
Thanks guys!
1858: What is the angle of throw that the lever has on you 1894?

 

[VA27]

Well, duh. LOL It's got half the powder capacity and shoots faster powders. That's the whole reason a hot loaded .357 magnum simulates a weak loaded .30-30 from a 20" rifle barrel, it's the powder burn rate...

I don't think the case capacity is half, but it probably is smaller. I don't know if he messed with trying some different powders in the SIG round, but I'd think it would help. A little experimentation with 2400, 4227 or H110 might improve velocity out of a longer barrel.

 

[BCRider]

KimberLover, excuse me if I simply don't understand why you're so dead set against learning to reload your own ammo.

You mentioned that you're paying $380/1000 for your .38Super. Yet you could reload that same 1000 rounds for only $150 for the primers, powder and bullets. For a difference of $230/1000 it certainly won't take long to pay off even a pretty nice reloading setup. Then from that point on you're shooting either for half the cost or twice as much for the same.

Perhaps rather than dismiss the reloading your own option out of hand you might want to begin studying the equipment and methods. Very likely you'll soon find out that it's not as mysterious as you appear to believe.

 

[KimberLover]

Re: Reloading

BCRider: I know you are right about the cost savings which occurs after you buy the reloading equipment, dies, powder, measuring devices, shells, primers, and bullets. Then there is the cost to set up a reload station.
However, I am not aquainted with anyone that reloads and I do not wish to take on the challenge of that endeavor.
What little time I have left, however short it may be is better spent doing things that interest me.
I can say, this exercise has been a really eye opening experience.
Thank you for your advice and all that contributed to my questions.
Thank you George for your help!

 

[MCgunner]

You are surely advanced when it comes to reloading.
I however would be totally lost!
Why? Because I have never been associated with anyone that reloaded and know very little about it.
I want to enjoy my shooting experience and do not wish to get involved in something that is unknown to me, and reloading is just that.
I can't help but remember the 44 that exploded from an overloaded powder charge by a reloader.
Then to top it all off, our range owner will not allow reloads to be shot in his building along with those copper coated metal bullets that are sold.
Man! You talk about coming unglued, he can really get upset about that. Must be the damage that his backstop takes from that junk.
I know you could set me straight on reloading, but to be honest! I'm just not interested.
I love my 38's, 38 super's and 357's, I just wish I could get a good lever rifle that would complete my peculiar whim.
OK, so there is another reason I have for persuing this project, here goes....
I had 7 AR15's and sold them. Two reasons: One the range owner had to shut down his outdoor range due to complaints from the surrounding neighbors.
Two: My health took a change for the worst and my chest was opened up. The doctor said no more shooting high powered shoulder weapons unless I wanted him to put the staples back in for me.
I don't think 38 super is considered high powered for a shoulder weapon.
If it is, the doctor better get his staple gun ready.

I've been reloading successfully for 50 years, now. I started with my grandpa at age 10. Now, if I never wanted to do something I knew nothing about, I'd never learned to read or write! There are those that are better off NOT reloading, however. Same sort of folks that can't change a sparkplug in a lawn mower. If you're not a logical thinking, mechanically minded type, well, maybe it ain't for you. I think the subject matter of trying to fire a round that's totally NOT the round the rifle has been designed for sorta would tell me you might not be ready for reloading. So, I suppose I understand your feelings on the matter.

Be safe! That's the deal, guns can be dangerous if you don't follow the rules and don't respect them. They can bite you. Your question, all these "can I fire a .45 colt in my H&R .410" questions, well, I'm wondering how many folks wind up in surgery from such experiments. At least all THESE posts have seeked advice. How many just do it and find out the hard way?

 

[KimberLover]

RE: MCGunner

MC, you obviously have not read the posts from beginning to end. Your post irks me!
You indicate that you are at least 60 years old. I have 10 plus on you. You should not assume that when one wirtes a question in this forum that he is not capable and can't change a spark plug.
My shop equipment has long been sold, but you can bet I know exactly how to use it.
My post does not say anything about my past experience.
At my age, I am not going to try to learn how to reload anything that can blow up in my face.
I like buying my bullets and I 'll leave the loading to Remington and Winchester. You will very soon learn what I am saying.
OH! About shooting a 45 colt in a 410, I do it all the time.
My Judge is right handy by the bed.

 

[mavracer]

KL it's damn hard to take anyone serious who claims to be sure that they could get a Marlin to feed 38 supers while stating that they are unsure as to their ability to reload ammunition safely.
And your Judge isn't made by H&R so try again with the SA comment that one was a dud.