RE: My question concerning the 357 lever action rifles

[KimberLover]

RE: MavRacer

I think My question was: "Could you put a 38 super into a 357 Lever rifle." as I had past experience in shooting the 38 supers in my S&W's.
I did not ask if the Marlin would feed it. I was mostly concerned if the casing would be ejected.
1858 Indicated that the 38 super would go into the barrel and the bullet would eject, but the feeder jamed because it was too deep for the short 38 super.
VA27 said it would possibly be a minor alteration to the feed mechanism to solve that problem, but once altered one could only shoot 38 supers in it.

Then I ask you: Where would MCgunner have been without grandpa showing him how to reload? Which is where I would be!
I got my answer from 1858 as he was willing to go the extra mile to help find the solution. I appreciate his help and I bet 1858 will soon let his curiosity get the best of him and shoot a 38 super in his Marlin.

 

[MCgunner]

I know lots of folks that started reloading by reading a lot. Self education is the way.

 

[BCRider]

.....What little time I have left, however short it may be is better spent doing things that interest me......

I can understand that. And at least you can't say we didn't try...

I'll just close off my own portion of this thread with encouragement to buy the lever rifle and enjoy it if you feel that you're at the point of not much time left on this plane of existence. They really are great fun regardless of which cartridge is needed to fit in the gun.

Since we know that the gun would need to be modified to handle the .38Super in the loading path in any event I'd suggest you simply buy and shoot it with .38Spl. Those loads from that rifle will be light for recoil but they still "hit" the shoulder harder than a .22LR rifle.

The REAL fun with lever guns of this sort is to set up two or more targets and alternate between then with reasonably fast but still well placed shooting. Cycling the lever and being back on target almost as fast as a semiauto is one of those magical moments.

 

[KimberLover]

I'll wait....

1858 told me he is going to shoot his 38 super in his Marlin this weekend.
Luck was with me today......
I bought a Rock Island 1911 in 38 super. He threw in 1400 rounds of Aguila in the factory boxes with the deal.
I was going to buy 20 boxes at the gun show this weekend, but no need for that now!
They would be $400/1000
It was loaded with big box of extra stuf.
Took me an hour to go thru the boxes.

 

[mavracer]

1858 told me he is going to shoot his 38 super in his Marlin this weekend.

I understand that KimberLover knows everything about shooting a 38 super in a 357 magnum chamber because he's got away with it thus far, but just in case 1858 doesn't I'll point out the problem. the case length of the .357 is 1.29" meaning that the chamber is roughly .380" dia to that point before the throat in the chamber narrows down to .358 usually. 38 Super's case length is .9" giving the bullet room to completely leave the case and obiturate to .380" diameter (given enough pressure and a soft enough bullet) and possibly leaving a chunk of jacket in the chamber and probably at the least fouling the foward portion of the chamber which would make firing 357s again without a thourogh cleaning rather dangerous.

 

[MCMXI]

obiturate

Is that an overly wordy obituary.

Seriously though, all of the .38 Super ammunition is metal case so I wouldn't expect excessive fouling before the throat but will check. The .38 Super is on par with the .357 Mag in terms of pressure with a MAP of 36,500 psi.

 

[KimberLover]

RE: MavRacer.....

I'll be the first to admit that that grove in the cylinder of the 357 did worry me at first.
You can bet I did check to see if any residue was left there after the first few rounds were shot.
I do not shoot wad cutters as they are always most always reloads.
The flat bullet should by your reasoning creat some serious fowling in the cylinder.
But that said, my shooting partner always manages to find some wad cutters to sneak in at the range and here is another question I have....
If the 38 super would fowl the cylinder, then why not the wad cutters?
Their total length is no more that one mm longer than the brass case and as flat as a flitter.
I have never seen his targets without a perfectly round hole in them, comming out of his 4" 686 S&W or his Colt Python 4", both in stainless and he hardly ever cleans them.
Meaning no tumble, even at 50 feet.
Back to your excellent logical comment and I am impressed, but how about explaining the wad cutter that has been used by shooters for many years.

 

[R.W.Dale]

A steady diet of 38 wadcutters or many other cast loads will foul a 357 chamber with lead that will require cleaning.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

 

[BCRider]

KL, the full wadcutters don't have the same problem because they are supported by the casing while entering the throat area of the chamber. The short .38Super bullets won't have that same luxary as the casing is short enough that the bullet will be flying free within the chamber for a short ways before the bore riding skirts of the bullet seal off in the throat or enter the rifling depending on the style of firearm.

Speaking of wadcutter rounds I tried ONE in my Rossi and it fed fine. So like a dummy I loaded up a full tube worth. Yep, I got the infamous "Jam Up Of Epic Proportions" noted earlier I figure that the interrupter that is supposed to stop the next round coming could not sense the break between one round and the next due to the blunt end being just too close to the following rim. If I had some .38Super I'd try it again to see if the interrupter is length critical or simply needs to see a longer opening created by the proper nose shape.

 

[mavracer]

Shedding the jacket and fouling are separate issues. 38 wadcutters will indeed cause fowling of course it only fouls .1" where as supers are going to foul .4". The problem fouling causes is that the 357 cases aren't able to expand and release the bullet at least with the fouling from specials it only affects about 25% of the bullets surface. As to all 38 super being metal case I'd be real careful making that assumption as a lot of factory ammunition that is marked FMJ is actually plated.
Just as with reloading if you're going to go outside the box you really need to know more than "Well it hasn't blown my gun up yet".

 

[MCMXI]

As to all 38 super being metal case I'd be real careful making that assumption as a lot of factory ammunition that is marked FMJ is actually plated.

What I meant was all of the .38 Super that I have on hand is metal case ... and yes, I know the difference between plated and metal case. Also, I have to wonder if a .357 Mag round would chamber in a rifle that has been heavily fouled from shooting .38 Super rounds.

I have a Python, two GP100s, an SP101 and a Marlin all chambered for .357 Mag. I don't shoot .38 Spl at all for the same reason that I don't shoot .44 Spl in my 629 or .45 Colt in my SRH "Alaskan". However, I'm curious and would like to help KimberLover with his endeavor even if it's to convince him that the view isn't worth the climb. I work as an R&D engineer and you never know what you might learn when you step outside the box. I think my interest here is partly due to my desire to have a Marlin chambered in .454 Casull. Yes, I know the 1894/95 actions aren't strong enough but that doesn't dampen my desire.

 

[KimberLover]

Oh Me! I could not help myself today...

I was at the C&E gun show in Winston Salem this morning.
First thing I bought was a set of pearl (actually plastic) grips for the RAI 38 super 1911 I bought yesterday.
Then I started looking for 38-357 lever action rifles.
There were no Marlins to be found, but I spied a hex barrel in a stand and after looking over all the inventory I went back to the seller.
Course you know it was a Rossi, but it was new and I inquired about the tag price and haggled with the seller. I was not really feeling that good about buying a Rossi.
He finally agreed to my offered price which I thought was a good buy.
There were a ton of people there, but no one was buying.
It had case hardened ware on every metal part, even the butt plate.
It was top eject and I had to settle for that.
Felt like it weighed about 6 pounds.
I am going to ask a one question about one thing I missed when I read the posts above, so here goes:
I understand what BCRider is saying and I agree but.....
As mentioned I said I was shooting the 38 super in a 357, so if I shoot a 38 in that cylinder, how much shorter is the 38 than the 357?
Should there be residue from that?
Obviously 1858 thinks that because he does not shoot 38's in his 357, or is that the reason behind his statement.
I think 1858 knows my feelings on this and like him I have not lost my desire to try it.
My old expert gunsmith buddy says he can alter the 357 to shoot 38 supers, but once done it will be a 38 super only.
Truth is, I don't want to do that.

 

[mavracer]

"I have to wonder if a .357 Mag round would chamber in a rifle that has been heavily fouled from shooting .38 Super rounds."
"I work as an R&D engineer and you never know what you might learn when you step outside the box."

What you do on your dime is up to you. Just be careful stepping outside the box as one of the things you can learn is that you can actually blow up a gun.

As mentioned I said I was shooting the 38 super in a 357, so if I shoot a 38 in that cylinder, how much shorter is the 38 than the 357?

Super is .9", Special is 1.155" , Mag is 1.29"

Should there be residue from that?

Yes there will be.

 

[KimberLover]

Lesson learned...

Friday I bought a gun that had 1500 rounds of factory ammo and a bag full of reloads with it.
I checked the factory boxed ammo and put it away.
Today I checked the reloads and here is what I found:
100+ cases were a little out of round as you could see it with the naked eye.
Many rounds had the primers half way in the cases.
More rounds had a 38 slug pressed into a 9mm case.
Several had no primer, but had slugs in them.
Truthfully, nearly all of the reloads had a problem with then.
I removed the slugs from the ones that I though I would trash and found that the powder had mixed trash inside of them, looked like floor sweepings.
Although the 100+ rounds are slightly irregular, They will chamber in the 38 super. I'm going to try some of them just to see if they are any good.
After this experience, I'll never trust reloads again.
It is not a good feeling to take a misfire out of a gun and handle it.
I have experienced that once or twice in my time. Kinda gives you the willies as you wonder if it is going to be a delayed fire or not.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Ya know Kimber. Griping about the quality of reloaded ammunition obtained in the way you're getting them is akin to complaining about the quality of marriage you get from a wife you met at a house of ill repute




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

 

[MCMXI]

KimberLover, I have to agree with Mr. Dale re the reloads you purchased and I had to laugh at his analogy.

OK .. now to business. I've been unwell this weekend but managed to upgrade my Marlin 1894CSS with Wild West and Longhunter parts. Here's the rifle.




I was also able to conduct a test with three types of ammunition, namely Remington .357 Mag 125gr JSP, Remington .38 Spl 158gr LRN and Winchester 130gr FMJ. Here's the ammunition in question along with the velocity data for five rounds from each type.






Finally, I tried to shoot a mixed magazine of .38 Spl and .38 Super. I loaded a .38 Spl, .38 Super, .38 Spl, .38 Super .... until ten rounds were in the magazine. I was able to feed all of them into the chamber, fire and extract without any major issues. Extraction of the .38 Super works best at speed and I was even able to rechamber fired .38 Super cases. The .38 Super fired cases and primers look fine.



I hope this helps you in some way but I won't mislead you and claim that I would consider shooting .38 Super in the Marlin on a regular basis or ever again for that matter. As you now know, it won't feed from the magazine with more than one round loaded, it doesn't extract as well as .357 Mag or .38 Spl and shooting .357 Mag is just way more fun. A lever action rifle chambered specifically for .38 Super could be interesting but I wouldn't buy one. .45 Auto and/or .454 Casull ... heck yeah!!

 

[KimberLover]

Re: 1858 .....

Geesh! That is a great looking Marliin!
Wish it were mine.
I'd have to drool all over it. Might even have to move the wife in the spare bedroom for a night or two.
I'm impressed with the results.
Honestly, I never expected the Marlin to feed the 38 super much less a mix.
Have to say I never thought of that. I was expecting the chronograph to give better results for the 38 super. What a revolting development I must say.
So I can see that there is not much gained in shooting 38 supers over 38's and your results prove it.
I cannot thank you enough for helping me, and the others involved in this post.
You surely proved that your experience as an engineer was valuable in getting to the bottom of this endeavor.
No guessing, just fact and that I do appreciate.
Of course, I'm a little let down as your tracking chart makes shooting 38 supers in a 357 not what I had expected.
Thank you! my friend.
G

 

[MCMXI]

KimberLover,
The .38 Super doesn't seem to make as much use from the longer barrel compared to the .357 Mag or .38 Spl. Here are the published MVs for the loads used from 4" barrels.

.357 Mag 125gr JSP > MV = 1,450 fps
.38 Spl 158gr LRN > MV = 755 fps
.38 Super 130g FMJ > MV = 1,215 fps

When you consider the velocity increase from the longer Marlin barrel compared to a 4" barrel, the .38 Super doesn't seem to benefit much at all.

.357 Mag 125gr JSP > + 43%
.38 Spl 158gr LRN > + 35%
.38 Super 130g FMJ > + 15%

 

[MCMXI]

I did learn another interesting thing today that pertains to the data above. The .357 Mag and .38 Spl MV data is obtained from a vented test barrel to more accurately duplicate velocities from revolvers that have a cylinder gap. The .38 Super data is not generated with a vented test barrel so we don't see such a significant improvement.

 

[KimberLover]

RE Ventilated test...

I have a Dan Wesson with four interchangable barrels in 357.
I set the gap between the cylinder and the barrel at .002".
Is this considered a ventilated barrel because it has a .002" gap?
You show:.38 Super 130g FMJ > + 15%
Really?
What would you think the outcome would be with a vented barrel?

 

[BCRider]

KL, I've found that it takes a pretty good amount of the shorter ammo before it creates a crud ring that can become a problem if you suddenly put in some longer rounds. So don't feel like you can't shoot a mix of Super to Special to Magnum all over the course of a session. It simply doesn't build up that fast. IME it takes a good hundred or more rounds of the shorter stuff before you can't let a magnum round fall into place like a fresh caught fish on a wet board...

Rossi rifles seem to generate a wide range of feelings. Yes, they are a little rough in spots. But then we tend to get what we pay for. And last I saw the Rossi rifles cost a LOT less than true Winchesters or the fine older Marlins. But if we see the Rossi as a cheap way into the rifle then spend a little time or money getting it slicked up a little then you end up with a very nice shooting rifle for still less than the cost of the higher priced options. So I would not regret getting the Rossi at all. Instead send it off to get slicked up a little.

I would not go to the extent of getting a full cowboy action works job done. They tend to set them up almost sloppy to get them to cycle super fast. Instead I'd opt for getting the basic smoothening up done and switch out the hammer, trigger and ejector springs. Leave the stock lever latch spring in place. The result will be a slick handling rifle which still has the good manners to stay shut when you carry it around.

As for accuracy I've always found that my Rossi makes me look like a better shooter than some of my other rifles. And that's about all I can ask for.

 

[Zeke/PA]

I did a Model 92 build to .357 Magnum doing my stint at TSJC.
Never had a feeding problem with .357 or 38 Specials shooting Semi-Wadcutter Reloads

 

[MCMXI]

Is this considered a ventilated barrel because it has a .002" gap?

The term "vented barrel" is just a way to conduct a test that better approximates the actual use of a particular cartridge. .38 Spl and .357 Mag are shot in revolvers that have cylinder gaps rather than semi-autos that don't. If you're in the business of selling ammunition and you provide data such as MV, you may upset a number of customers if you publish data obtained from a standard SAAMI test barrel that doesn't account for the geometry of a revolver. If you consider the published MV of the .38 Super ammunition, realize that it was generated in a non-vented barrel and therefore may be higher than what you'd see shooting it out of a revolver. This helps to explain in part why I saw significant velocity increases for the .357 Mag and .38 Spl ammunition and not for the .38 Super. The .357 Mag and .38 Spl were sandbagging because their MVs were obtained from vented barrels.

 

[KimberLover]

RE; BCRider...

I have already looked at the possibility of slicking up the Rossi...
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/rossi.htm
This guy wrote an in depth article on doing just that.
But let me tell you, his article will take some close study before I get too hasty.
To tell you the truth I really like the feel of the hex barrel Rossi, but the extractor puzzles me.
It has a mechenism in the lower half of the breech that just blows my idea of how it works.
You are very correct in that the new 357 is tight, very tight.
I have put the light grease and "Marvel Mystery Oil" to it and it is smoother.
Thank you for the good report on your Rossi.

 

[KimberLover]

Re: 1858...

I swear, every time you post I am amazed...Where was my brain when you said not vented.
I guess I was not thinking when you said an auto was just that, non vented.
Oh well, goes to show you one is never to old to learn.
At least I'm paying attention!:banghead:

Zeek/PA: I wish I had you here to lend a hand, I'l start tomight.

Oh! here is something I think you will all appreiate. This guy must be the worlds greatest collector and he is only a few miles away.
He has 6 Winchesters listed as Numbers 185-190 all have the same serial numbers but end in a,b,c,d,e,f. The auctoneer says they will sell them as a group.
He has 270 guns for auction on the 16th.
Here is the link:
http://www.myersauctionservice.com/
Look to the right under "Listings"