Re-seating 9mm loads

[Lee Q. Loader]

As I've stated in prior threads I bought the new Ruger PCC 9mm. I'm disappointed that many of my 9mm loads that I loaded prior to the purchase of the carbine won't "plunk" in the carbine. I have about 700 rounds, I loaded for my handgun, the load is 124gr RMR MPR with 5.6 grains of BE-86 with OAL of 1.10. I give these a very light crimp, really just enough to remove the belling.

My whole thought process when I purchased the carbine was how great it would be to have another weapon that would shoot my 9mm reloads. It's not working out like that right now.

Here's the question: Can I safely seat these loads deeper without a problem? I need to get them to 1.08 about so they will run in the carbine. I realize this will increase the pressure but I've already loaded some new rounds to this OAL with 5.6 and 5.7gr BE-86 and they run fine in the carbine. Will this damage the bullet? As stated above they have a very light crimp.

 

[Tilos]

It would depend on how much "crimp" you did.
If over-crimped, the case would scrape the bullet when pushing the bullet deeper.
Re-seating a round and inspecting the bullet/case juncture for scraped bullet material is what I'd do/try.
Depending on what you will accept, you could remove any material that has built-up and shoot it in the carbine.

 

[LiveLife]

Good advice.

Ruger PCC 9mm ... my loads ... won't "plunk" in the carbine. I have about 700 rounds ... 124gr RMR MPR with 5.6 grains of BE-86 with OAL of 1.10.

Can I safely seat these loads deeper without a problem? I need to get them to 1.08 about so they will run in the carbine. I realize this will increase the pressure

As to load data, if my working OAL is shorter than published OAL, I reduce powder charge by .2-.3 gr. Alliant lists the following for BE86 and 124 gr JHP loaded to 1.120" (And JHP used for testing could be of different nose profile from RMR MPR like JHP bullet second from left in below comparison picture) - http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...wderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=38&cartridge=23

9mm BE-86 124 gr JHP OAL 1.120" Max 5.9 gr 1,175 fps

Published max charge of 5.9 gr is with 1.120" OAL so I think you may be OK with using 5.6-5.7 gr with 1.080" OAL especially for blowback action carbine which will lose more pressure than locked breech pistol (and as you already tested in your new load rounds).

I've already loaded some new rounds to this OAL with 5.6 and 5.7gr BE-86 and they run fine in the carbine.

As to seating the bullet deeper, I would adjust the dies so you are seating the bullet deeper only and not applying more taper crimp (Your taper crimp should be around .377"-.378" at the case mouth). I would also test some of 700 loaded rounds for bullet setback by loading/chambering them from the magazine (Point muzzle in safe direction, pull bolt back and release without riding the bolt) and measure OAL before/after. If finished rounds don't experience bullet setback, I think you should be OK.

For me, RMR 124 gr MPR (If you look at comparison picture below, looks like RMR RN with tip cut off) worked at 1.125" for my older Lone Wolf barrels with longer leade, 1.120" worked for KKM barrel but for my newest Lone Wolf barrel with shorter leade, I need to use 1.050".

 

[Bat Rastard]

Re-seat a few, then pull them and inspect. If they look okay, shoot a few. If they shoot okay, drive on!
If they don't look good, shoot those 700 in the pistol and load them shorter next time around.

 

[Walkalong]

From 1.100 down to 1.080 is .030 difference. At 5.7 Grs of BE-86, it will, IMHO, push pressures up too much.

Shoot them in your pistol.

 

[Walkalong]

Published max charge of 5.9 gr is with 1.120" OAL so I think you may be OK with using 5.6-5.7 gr with 1.080" OAL especially for blowback action carbine which will lose more pressure than locked breech pistol (and as you already tested in your new load rounds).

bds may be right, but I think 5.9 Grs of BE-86 is too much with a 124 Gr bullet in the first place, so I would be very leery of doing it.

 

[LiveLife]

From 1.100 down to 1.080 is .030 difference. At 5.7 Grs of BE-86, it will, IMHO, push pressures up too much.

But OP already tested new 5.7 gr loads loaded to 1.080" and they shot fine in the carbine

I need to get them to 1.08 ... I've already loaded some new rounds to this OAL with 5.6 and 5.7gr BE-86 and they run fine in the carbine.

I already suggested OP reduce max charge if using shorter than published OAL.

if my working OAL is shorter than published OAL, I reduce powder charge by .2-.3 gr.

bds may be right, but I think 5.9 Grs of BE-86 is too much with a 124 Gr bullet in the first place, so I would be very leery of doing it.

Very good point.

But I believe OP is using 5.6 gr (not 5.9 gr) for 700 rounds already loaded at 1.100".

Still, I WOULD NOT shoot 5.7 gr loads loaded to 1.080" in PISTOLS without doing chrono testing first.

FYI, my blowback carbine loads are worked up so they will be safe to shoot in my locked breech pistols.

Be safe.

 

[fxvr5]

From 1.100 down to 1.080 is .030 difference. At 5.7 Grs of BE-86, it will, IMHO, push pressures up too much.

When I do the math 1.100 - 1.080 = 0.020 difference.

How much will pressure go up when seating the bullet 0.020" deeper?

 

[fxvr5]

Still, I WOULD NOT shoot 5.7 gr loads loaded to 1.080" in PISTOLS without doing chrono testing first.

A chrono will tell you velocity. What will you learn from this related to safety?

 

[LiveLife]

Relative velocity increase from 1.100" load which OP already has 700 rounds loaded at 5.6 gr.

OP already tested 5.7 gr at 1.080" in the carbine but AFAIK, not in the pistol.

So if OP wants to use one load for both pistol and carbine, the 5.7 gr load at 1.080" should be tested for pistol.

Perhaps, OP could consider lower powder charge load at 1.080" to use in both pistol and carbine like 5.6 gr for future reloads.

 

[fxvr5]

Relative velocity increase from 1.100" load which OP already has 700 rounds of.

Okay, velocity goes up. Anything useful beyond that?

 

[LiveLife]

fxvr5, I lack chamber pressure measuring tools.

OP asked question on use of 700 rounds already loaded whether they could be reseated shorter for carbine use and I provided some suggestions (including suggestion of reducing max charge by .2-.3 gr when using shorter OAL than published).

If OP asked question on new load development starting with working OAL of 1.080", my suggestion would have been work up low and go up until reliable bolt cycling, spent case extraction/ejection and accuracy trend (I would still suggest reducing max charge by .2-.3 gr for blowback carbine powder work up due to using shorter than published OAL).

Now OP has some options:

• Use 5.6 gr load at 1.100" only for pistol
• Reseat 5.6 gr load to 1.080" and only use for carbine (OP already tested 5.7 gr load at 1.080" in carbine)

As already posted by Walkalong and me, I would carefully work up to 5.7 gr load at 1.080", especially for pistol as we are essentially at near max/max charge (And we don't know whether OP is working with check weight verified scale).

In addition, OP is likely using mixed range brass with unknown reload history and condition of brass. And I usually post I prefer to use mid-to-high range load data with mixed range brass. FYI, I use 5.2 gr of BE-86 with 124 gr FMJ/RN loaded longer at 1.135"-1.145" with mixed range brass.

So OP, if you have pressure concerns with using 5.6 gr at 1.080" for pistol (and especially for 5.7 gr), verify your scale with check weights at 5.0-5.5 gr range and conduct new powder work up using 1.080" for pistol. If you are using mixed range brass with unknown reload history and condition of brass, consider using mid-to-high range load data.

 

[cheygriz]

I called Remington several years ago about seating depth.

the technie told me that as long as they aren't shorter than same weight/shape factory loads, you're good to go.

 

[LiveLife]

Remington ... technie told me that as long as they aren't shorter than same weight/shape factory loads, you're good to go.

And I think that's OP's concern (We do not know which JHP bullet Alliant used for testing) as RMR MPR has different nose profile than typical JHP. RMR MPR is more like RMR RN with tip cut off and has shorter rounder nose profile.

If you look at below comparison picture, you will notice MPR has shorter bullet length than JHP on the left which means MPR will produce shallower bullet seating depth when loaded to same OAL. But since we do not know the bullet length used for Alliant's published load data, As Walkalong posted, I think being cautious is good.

 

[Lee Q. Loader]

Thanks to all for the replies. This is a lot of food for thought.
Just to clarify some of the assumptions you all made for your replies:
I use Lee dies where the seating and crimping are separate steps.
I do use mixed range brass.
I did run a few rounds of 5.7 grains with 1.08 OAL through the carbine, NOT the handgun(Ruger SR9e). They shot well, but I only loaded those few and I don't think I'll go there again because I will not shoot that load in the handgun.

The 5.6 gr loads at 1.10 are great loads for the handgun and, based on replies here, I'll just leave them as they are. I do think the recoil is pretty stout on that load though. So i won't mind decreasing the charge.

So keeping in mind my main goal of having a good supply of ammo that will shoot and function well in both, I'm going back to the drawing board and finding a good round for the handgun at OAL 1.08. I think I'll start about 5.2 grs BE-86. Then make sure they work well in the carbine as well. When I find that magic load I'll be happy and load up another 1000 or so!!
I also have my original fav 9mm powders, Herco and Unique, to fall back to if I don't find that magic load with BE-86.
Thanks again!

 

[LiveLife]

Good to hear.

When it comes to safety, THR members are keen but that's good thing. Believe me, most members here will make sure you are on the safe side of load data, especially with mixed range brass (Too many "Funny thing happened at the range today" threads ).

Keep us posted.

I also have my original fav 9mm powders, Herco and Unique, to fall back to if I don't find that magic load with BE-86.

BTW, Here's my work up of Herco in 9mm with 115/124 gr jacketed/plated/lead bullets done during the "Great Component Shortage" and I was pleasantly surprised at the result - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-and-herco-for-jacketed-lead-plated-bullets.745656/

And speaking of Herco, it's great in 40S&W. Despite what others claim, it's the cleanest burning 40S&W powder I have used that leaves even the inside of cases clean.

 

[Lee Q. Loader]

Good to hear.

When it comes to safety, THR members are keen but that's good thing. Believe me, most members here will make sure you are on the safe side of load data, especially with mixed range brass (Too many "Funny thing happened at the range today" threads ).

Keep us posted.


BTW, Here's my work up of Herco in 9mm with 115/124 gr jacketed/plated/lead bullets done during the "Great Component Shortage" and I was pleasantly surprised at the result - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-and-herco-for-jacketed-lead-plated-bullets.745656/

And speaking of Herco, it's great in 40S&W. Despite what others claim, it's the cleanest burning 40S&W powder I have used that leaves even the inside of cases clean.

I really like Herco and now that you've got me thinking about it, it does run very clean in my experience. I really don't find any love for Herco anywhere on the internet. I think it has a very different recoil in 9mm, more pleasant. It's that more pronounced push recoil rather that the hard pop with others. I guess that's because it's a slower powder...right?

 

[LiveLife]

Yes, Herco is medium sized flake powder with burn rate around Unique, Universal, BE-86, Power Pistol, WSF, etc. so it tends to produce recoil that rather "pushes" than "snap" that faster burn rate powders produce - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-9#post-10644921

Perhaps no love for Herco, the cousin of flaming dirt Unique, may come from less accuracy from lower pressure older caliber loads like .38 Spl and 45 Colt. In comparison to Bullseye, Red Dot/Promo, W231/HP-38, Herco 38 Spl/45 Colt loads were less accurate for me. I just about wrote off Herco but during the Great Component Shortage, tested Herco in higher pressure 9mm and 40S&W and was pleasantly surprised by very acceptable accuracy level, especially for 40S&W particularly cleanest burning powder that left the inside of cases clean - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/40s-w-and-herco-for-lead-plated-bullets.743416/

I think many people will be happy with these 15/25 yard groups from Herco.

 

[Walkalong]

When I do the math 1.100 - 1.080 = 0.020 difference.

How much will pressure go up when seating the bullet 0.020" deeper?

Dang, and I was good at math too. Thanks for pointing out the error.

Speer has a paragraph in their reloading books showing a .030 difference making a tremendous difference in pressures in the small 9MM case. They warn against this.


I just want folks to be careful.

 

[fxvr5]

Dang, and I was good at math too. Thanks for pointing out the error.

Speer has a paragraph in their reloading books showing a .030 difference making a tremendous difference in pressures in the small 9MM case. They warn against this.
View attachment 804985

I just want folks to be careful.

I’m familiar with the Speer manual comment. But critical data is left out. It does not indicate which powder, or bullet was used, and the overall lengths that were tested. This makes it hard to put into context.

Another source, published in an early Ramshot loading manual (found here: http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Ramshot/Ramshot_3.pdf) on page number 3 shows specific information about pressure change in a 9mm with a 115 grain bullet using Zip powder.

It shows a increase in pressure of around 20% (~ 5,500 psi) after a bullet was seated 0.073” deeper. That’s a a lot less pressure for an even greater seating depth change, and Ramshot shows this with 5 depths, which show a largely linear effect. Using Ramshot’s data, a 0.020 deeper bullet would result in an increase in pressure of around 1,540 psi.

Clearly, the details matter, but Speer’s paragraph does not apply across the board to all 9mm ammo situations.

I want people to be careful, too.

 

[Ironicaintit]

really, 700 rounds isnt a whole helluvalot. it wouldnt take long to burn those up.

develop a nice load that works in both your pistol and carbine.

and keep the originals segregated (and well labeled) until you can run through them all.

I am a fan of Herco in 9mm and 40s&w. but still, I use Unique.

 

[Dudedog]

Clearly, the details matter, but Speer’s paragraph does not apply across the board to all 9mm ammo situations.

Of course neither does Ramshots.

The question of course is do we look at the data where it didn't make a big difference or do we look at the data where it did.
I really don't like guessing where my body parts are involved.

As already posted by Walkalong and me, I would carefully work up to 5.7 gr load at 1.080", especially for pistol as we are essentially at near max/max charge (And we don't know whether OP is working with check weight verified scale).

I think this is a wise plan of action.

I think Alliants data for BE86 runs on the hot side.
I have had a couple different lots of BE86 and I would say one lot was a bit hotter than the others.
Between .1-.2 gr reduction on this lot gave me the same vels as the other lots. (the other lots were a lot closer than the one "hot" one)
[QUOTE but I think 5.9 Grs of BE-86 is too much with a 124 Gr bullet in the first place, so I would be very leery of doing it.[/QUOTE]
I agree 100%

Alliant Data
124 JHP BE-86 MAX 5.9 gr 1175 @1.12
Here are some of my results with a 5.5gr charge of BE96 in a 5" 9mm 1911
String: 6
Date: 3/31/2017
Time: 3:18:05 PM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1180
Low Vel: 1143
Ave Vel: 1158
Ext Spread: 37
Std Dev: 14
RMR 124 RN 1.12 OAL BE86 5.5 Mixed range brass S+B SP (some tests here have shown S+Bs to be milder than some other SPs) Probably 5 different case types
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1180 146.32 383.343
1163 144.212 372.377
1160 143.84 370.458
1143 141.732 359.68
1146 142.104 361.57
So at 5.5gr I am close to the vel they show with 5.9
Can't find the numbers at the moment but 5.7gr put me a hair over 1200 (used all one flavor of case for the 5.7 test)
I would guess out a 5" barrel to get 1200fps I am getting close to or am at +P pressures with 5.7, I wouldn't go to 5.9 myself with this bullet with BE86 in this pistol.
I don't doubt that 5.9 was safe in Alliant's test setup just commenting that for my setup I think 5.9gr would be pushing it.

Always better to be safe than sorry IMO.

 

[Walkalong]

Clearly, the details matter, but Speer’s paragraph does not apply across the board to all 9mm ammo situations.

True.

 

[Walkalong]

Check out the velocities. At 5.7 (Not 5.5 as I originally typed) the Avg is 1224, pretty stout, and at 5.9 the Avg is 1238. Not much gain for .2 Grs, which tells me we are the point of diminishing returns, which tells me to stop at least, if not back off. Accuracy went to crap too, another bad sign.

 

[markr6754]

Check out the velocities. At 5.5 the Avg is 1224, pretty stout, and at 5.9 the Avg is 1238. Not much gain for .2 Grs, which tells me we are the point of diminishing returns, which tells me to stop at least, if not back off. Accuracy went to crap too, another bad sign.

I had a bit of trouble following your math, since the difference between 5.5 and 5.9 is .4, thought you’d made a typo. Then I realized you did...not the .2, but the 5.5. Glad your photos are fully annotated.