Rebuffed scammers call the law on victims

[USAF_Vet]

I don't even have a land line in my house. Just the cell phones. If I don't recognize the caller, I either let it go to voice mail, or decline the call and send a text to check if it's a real caller. Granted, texts don't go to land lines, so I'll get an undeliverable message.

Never been SWATed, and never been threatened on the phone by a scammer.

 

[TwinReverb]

I once had an ex-neighbor try to claim I stole his satellite receiver. It was on a military installation and so I let the cops in without warrant. But of course they found nothing because I was doing nothing wrong. But that's on base: they can make a phone call and get verbal authorization in less than a minute, so it would've only been a formality there.

Civilians, I'd say it depends on the person. Me, I'm not scared because I do nothing even remotely illegal. Call it a blessing in disguise, but I've found that I can't lie to save my life, nor hide things, so I just gave up on trying to do so and gave up doing what is wrong. No drugs for me, etc. So I could easily let them into my house. But that's me.

I live in a small town now. I know most the cops here by face. So really, if any of them I know had shown up, I would've let them in. There's absolutely nothing even remotely bad going on here. Do I have to do so? No.

I suggest everyone make up their own minds as to what they want to do in that situation. If you're paranoid about the cops finding something they shouldn't, I have two suggestions: 1) stop doing whatever you think the cops will not appreciate finding and 2) lawyer up.

I gave up on trying to get away with stuff a long time ago. Life's too short losing sleep and time hiding illegal activity.

But yeah, we have the fourth amendment (and several others) for a reason. You don't have to let them in. I would suggest the default should be no to let them in without a warrant because even if you trust them and have done nothing wrong, it upholds the amendments that give us liberty, and keeps people following rules and respecting boundaries.

 

[westy39]

This is just another reason to have a phone with an answering machine. I recently received a call from "an unknown" number. I didn't pickup the phone but instead listened as I was threated with a lawsuit by the IRS..... OK I knew this was a crap call so I ignored it. I saved the recording for my wife to listen to we both had a good laugh. I repeat get a answering machine and don't answer any calls that you don't recognize on the caller ID list. Life is hard and if you let scammers punk you it is harder.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

I don't answer any phone calls that I don't know the number. Rather easy because there are less than 20 that would call us, every other one gets ignored.

 

[HOOfan_1]

If you're paranoid about the cops finding something they shouldn't, I have two suggestions: 1) stop doing whatever you think the cops will not appreciate finding and 2) lawyer up.

Logical fallacy to think that one needs to be hiding something in order to not want the police tramping through their home.

Not much of a leap from the "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about" logic to..."if you have something to worry about, you must have something to hide"

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

People need to remember that Swatting isn't tied to IRS scams, or other phone scams. ANYBODY can pick up a phone somewhere and cry "WOLF" to 911.

People have been lying their keisters off to authorities to get people into trouble since time immemorable. This includes making fake calls to police, fire departments, child protective services, etc. It's really nothing new.


If the police take such a call seriously, you ain't gonna be given much of a chance to say "no". They'll come in and secure everybody and everything first and THEN straighten things out.

If they have doubts for some reason, then you may have the opportunity to say "no" and carry on from there.


In every instance, however, it's NOT worth it to do something stupid in what can be a highly volatile situation and end up escalating things out of control. So, if the cops come in like stormtroopers, drop everything and do exactly as they say. You can lawyer up later. If they come ASKING, then be polite, exercise your right to not consent to a search if you wish as you see fit. And STILL follow up with your attorney if for no other reason than to make sure you're legally protected even if things work out well and the police leave.

My wife's cousins, who live literally down the street from us, were SWATted because of some issues somebody had against their son (who is a blazing idiot, but I digress). The police came in guns drawn, cuffed everybody, and then figured things out afterwards, nobody hurt or killed. (Though nobody ever said anything about soiled underwear.)

If you think you'd be ticked off to be a victim of a SWAT call like that, multiply that by a factor of 10 or so and you'll have an idea how ticked off the police are to have been needlessly called out like that. They do NOT like people using them as pawns in such dangerous games.

 

[Cee Zee]

It's a pretty big deal that most of the spoofing sites are based outside the USA. That makes them extremely hard to deal with in some cases. Some countries just will not cooperate in investigations if it's not something major like a virus that has been unleashed on the world. Think Russia when you think of spoofing telephone calls. They aren't going to go along with just any investigation. They consider it a waste of their time and they also consider those sites money in the hands of their citizens. They are NOT on our side with these things.

 

[Sav .250]

Never heard that one..............

 

[Lord Teapot]

i never even go to the door when it's a cop. i ignore them completely. let them break in or get a warrant.

 

[Officers'Wife]

i never even go to the door when it's a cop. i ignore them completely. let them break in or get a warrant.

With people like my brother in law wearing police uniforms you are going to find that is considered resisting law enforcement and suitable excuse for street court. He's openly bragged that "perps" that ignore him need to be shot just to "get their attention."

 

[Lord Teapot]

well, i'm not particularly afraid of getting my butt kicked, in the back of my mind the payoff from the settlement will make it well worth it!

 

[Cee Zee]

Never heard that one..............

Oh yeah I've heard of that one "and" the other one many times. We got it from the whatsitcalled. Straight from it's mouth. Well if it had a mouth.

You may want to quote what it is you're responding to.

 

[JTHunter]

SIMPLE SOLUTION: DON'T ANSWER YOUR PHONE IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE CALLER.

Not eveybody has "caller ID" which, as also pointed out, isn't fool-proof.

 

[P5 Guy]

Simple solution just do not answer the call, let the call go to voice mail.
Leave a message after the beep, who needs caller ID?

 

[Shovelhead]

On the flip side, if I'm calling someone and it goes to voicemail, I hang up.
When answering, if they use my given first name (nobody I know does) I hang up.

 

[StrutStopper]

Not due to ticking off scammers, but an Oklahoma police chief was shot 4 times (survived because of his vest) because someone called in a bomb threat using a spoofed phone number. The police investigated where they believed the call came from, the home owner (who did NOT make the call) thought his home was being invaded, but it was the police. No charges were filed. This is a potentially disastrous scenario.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/1...ing-said-never-made-11-call-that-led-to-raid/

 

[old lady new shooter]

The big problem is the inability of phone companies to actually trace calls since the advent of spoofed phone calls generated over the internet. Check out this web page and consider how it's being abused.

https://www.spooftel.com/freecall/

The scammer can make it appear he is calling from the house next door to yours. The police see his caller ID info as being right next to you. So they take the complaint about the "man with a gun" seriously.

This is a serious problem. Sales calls completely disappeared until this starting taking place. The sellers / scammers don't even have to bother with using a spoofed call number because they know the LEO is not able to enforce the law and they have essentially given up.

Not only can the scammers call saying you have a gun, they can say you have fired the gun into their home repeatedly. They might even fake the sound of gunfire. If that happens forget not letting the LEO's into your house. They are going to knock down your door and stick an AR in your ear and a boot on your neck.

We need to demand that something be done about this type of calling. There has to be a method of making sure a call comes from an actual phone that can be traced instead of the man on the moon. If you notice, the "card services" calls always have a different phone number listed on your called ID. They were among the first and the worst to use spoofing. There's really no end to the foul deeds that can be done using this technology. The phone companies are going to have to spring for new equipment that monitors whether calls come from the internet or not. I know hackers are hard to stay ahead of but it has to be done. The consequences are too bad not to. Imagine someone calling the cops telling them you have their 5 year old daughter inside your house and you have a gun. They WILL knock down your door. And people sometimes die from such treatment by the LEO's.

I've had scammers set their phones to call my house a dozen times a day at all hours because I played them on that Microsoft calling scam. I let them go on for about 20 minutes while I acted like a moron with access to a credit card. They didn't like it. And I've heard tales of online scammers going as far as sending people to houses to get even with anyone messing with their scam. The Nigerian scammers are particularly nasty. Their government totally encourages them to scam people. They fear nothing and they have resources. Those scams work or they wouldn't keep doing it and that means they have money for all sorts of things including physical confrontations with people who turn the tables on them. Scammers are scum so they should be feared. They can and do hurt people at times.

We need to lean on the government to crack down on this stuff again. It was great when I didn't get 15 fake calls a day. I've blocked a lot of the calls now but I still get a bunch of calls a day. And the stakes get higher all the time.

The caller ID you see on your phone can be spoofed by pretty much anybody. The ANI (automatic number identification) is not the same thing as caller ID. The ANI can also be spoofed, the big telcos offer this as an option to business customers with a lot of lines, who typically want their 800 customer service number to be the one you see, not the number of call center employee #573. I don't think the little scammers have the ability to do ANI spoofing.
In any case, law enforcement and other first responders should be able to see the ACTUAL calling number, if the phone companies aren't providing it to them they should be forced to because it's a matter of public safety.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Not due to ticking off scammers, but an Oklahoma police chief was shot 4 times (survived because of his vest) because someone called in a bomb threat using a spoofed phone number. The police investigated where they believed the call came from, the home owner (who did NOT make the call) thought his home was being invaded, but it was the police. No charges were filed. This is a potentially disastrous scenario.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/1...ing-said-never-made-11-call-that-led-to-raid/

This is really horrible.

Apparently the telcos are not mandated to display the true originating number to law enforcement and other first responders. I'd say that needs to change.

 

[Ash]

And what if they could tell the number. You get the phone call about some dire situation, they are focusing on the dire situation not on the incoming call. And what if they do focus on the incoming call? Will they simply ignore it or will they arrive at the location armed and ready to rock and roll? How will officers respond to a thread of deadly force, an abducted child, or mad threatening to take out his neighbors with an arsenal? What if the number is from Minnesota and you're in Georgia? Can they have the luxury of assuming it is not a friend from out of town is calling from a cell phone but rather a spoof?

Or is it game on time?

 

[old lady new shooter]

If it's a cellphone they should be able to get the location via GPS.

 

[ironworkerwill]

What if it's a pre-paid type cell phone?

 

[Pier23]

Years ago, I had a personal experience with this.

Cops came to my residence with a warrant, but I wasn't the person they were looking for, and in fact the warrant had the wrong address.

Being a kind and generous spirit, they asked if I could enter and look around, and I agreed.

It turns out (in Ohio at least), allowing a cop to enter is de facto agreement to allow a search.

They found a handgun for which I had failed to,get a Handgun Owners Identity Card (Wwhhaattt?????) issed by the city which stated that the possesor of the card owned a handgun (handgun type was not specified). Failure to have an HOIC meant the cops could take my gun.

Much expensive legal wrangling later I got the gun back, and learned the VERY valuable lesson of allowing NO cops across the threshold.

Oh, and the fact the warrant had the wrong address didn't matter to the court. Never understood THAT, but my atty said to shut up if I wanted the gun back, so I shut up.

 

[Lord Teapot]

Years ago, I had a personal experience with this.

Cops came to my residence with a warrant, but I wasn't the person they were looking for, and in fact the warrant had the wrong address.

Being a kind and generous spirit, they asked if I could enter and look around, and I agreed.

It turns out (in Ohio at least), allowing a cop to enter is de facto agreement to allow a search.

They found a handgun for which I had failed to,get a Handgun Owners Identity Card (Wwhhaattt?????) issed by the city which stated that the possesor of the card owned a handgun (handgun type was not specified). Failure to have an HOIC meant the cops could take my gun.

Much expensive legal wrangling later I got the gun back, and learned the VERY valuable lesson of allowing NO cops across the threshold.

Oh, and the fact the warrant had the wrong address didn't matter to the court. Never understood THAT, but my atty said to shut up if I wanted the gun back, so I shut up.

yep, much better to have them force their way in, then you can sue. never consent to big government, make them work for every inch of their corrupt agenda.

 

[oldbear]

Sounds self explanatory to me. If cops force their way into your house without a warrant then what else are they willing/planning on doing? Wearing a badge doesn't give you the right to do as you please.

fallout, Unless the law has changed, since I retired 14 years ago, an officer has the right to force entry into a building, either residence or business, if the officer has probable cause to believe that, a crime is being committed, the officer is in hot pursuit, or a life is in danger.

 

[Cee Zee]

I don't think the little scammers have the ability to do ANI spoofing.

According to the telcos they can. They don't like to admit not being in control of their own equipment but you can bet it's true. All those VoIP companies are essentially spoofing their caller ID's they send out to the world. Some of them allow you to not send any data among other things. But the thing is there are places that have the same technology that exist outside the US. It's very easy to make untraceable calls using those offshore services. The governments of the countries where it takes place couldn't care less. If they think their people are making money they actually think it's a good thing. In fact our own government is probably the worst for providing information to telemarketers. They sell lists of homeowners, taxpayers, etc.. They will do anything for a buck. They couldn't care less about spoofed calls either. For example did you know there is a law against spoofing in the US? But how often does it happen? How many calls a day do you get that are spoofed? They might pass a law to make themselves look good on election day but actually doing something about it is another story.

Skype is a particularly bad offender in this area. Any hacker with a minimal knowledge of how the systems work can bounce their calls around the world several times before actually getting to their target. Tracing those calls is just impossible as is enforcing laws against spoofing. The law doesn't even cover all the major ways spoofing is done.

Here's a quote from a web page on the subject:

" individuals who want to spoof their caller ID can use a commercial third party provider. Here are four that you can readily find on the web: Spoofcard, Telespoof, Spooftel, and Itellas. All of these services, as well as Google, operate as call re-originators meaning that the spoofing service provider places the actual call to the desired target number, and bridges the outbound call to the originator’s line. During the process they substitute a fake caller ID that is delivered to the far end. The originator either dials an access number and inputs his desired destination and spoof ID, or initiates the process over a web interface where the service provider places calls to both the originating and terminating line and bridges them together."

So you see your ANI information is not transmitted by the spoof calling host. They actually call you and the number you want to call and link the calls together so there is no way the evidence sent via ANI is ever available to anyone on the receiving end of such phone calls unless the spoofing host gives it up and they survive by being a buffer. They don't want to give it up easy.

Read the whole article on the page I linked to. It will give you the low down on the way things are being done. Again third party spoofers act as a buffer between caller and the person being called so that "no" data is sent to the person being called except the information of the spoofing company which in the worst cases exists outside the USA.

I don't really want to go on and on about this. It is just true that calls can be made with not way of tracing them other than going through a months long process of tracing. That's how they catch people who release the major malware programs into the wild. If you notice it takes them a good while to trace back to the originator of the information because hackers know how to bounce their stuff around the world several times before it gets where they want it. That's an old technology that was commonly used during the bot wars of the 90's. Use a few gateways scattered around the world hidden on unsuspecting host computers and before you know it you can make your stuff seem like the recipient sent it. I know how to do that stuff. It was part of my old job to know how it works. I was a computer consultant and security was always a primary concern. My best friend was head of computer security for Blockbuster video back during the time they had brick and mortar stores around the country. We used to sit around and figure out ways to steal millions of dollars. It can be done. Or at least it could back then. I've been out of that game a while now. Obviously I didn't actually steal anything. I didn't want to move to Tierra del Fuego.