Bubbles
Member
ATF told the judge that the documents fell under 26USC6103 and thus could be excluded from discovery. The judge believed them without reviewing the documents first. The judge has since learned otherwise and is not happy.
Recent Federal Case (Merged with " Rifle malfunction= prosecution?")
- Thread starter Historic Arms LLC
- Start date
- Status
ATF told the judge that the documents fell under 26USC6103 and thus could be excluded from discovery. The judge believed them without reviewing the documents first. The judge has since learned otherwise and is not happy.
ctdonath
Member
"Soft primered commercial ammunition" meaning a custom batch with primers so sensitive that the manufacturer refused to ship it due to being hazardous.
This tactic is becoming well-documented: the BATFE knows how to gunk up a gun, break stuff, and then run thousands of rounds of "soft primered ammo" until the gun doubles once, at which point they declare it a machinegun and throw the owner in jail for 10 years. If you EVER face having a gun tested for being a "machinegun", insist on videotaping the whole process and document it thoroughly - the jury won't like what they see.
Bubbles
Member
Those parts were factory-installed by Olympic Arms. A lot of AR15's manufactured in the 1980's were sold like that, with the ATF's blessing.
ETA: Robert Kiernicki, the guy who was loaned the rifle and who was shooting it when it malfunctioned on the range, has his own web site. On it he claims to be in the reserves, and he claims to have been in Iraq from March 7 thru November 7, 2006.
If you read the complaint, it states that Kiernicki was the one shooting the rifle in Berlin, WI on July 13, 2006 when it initially malfunctioned and started this whole mess. So, either Kiernicki lied under oath, or he's lying about his military service.
Last edited:
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Can't prove that though, and Oly recalled all the rifles involved in that. Not saying this is right, but you spin that story in front of an ignorant jury and this is how it ends. Spinning the story that "parts were filed on" and all that kind of stuff.
Hopefully the appeal will expose some of the problems with the prosecutions case, of which there appear to be many.
Oh I think there is plenty of lying on the prosecution side, no question.
Nasty. I was at an appleseed shoot when an M1 fired twice.
Where was the jury in all of this, and what did they get to see? If the BATF returned the rifle once and said "not a machine gun", and then did it again and said "machine gun", that would be enough reasonable doubt that I would vote "not guilty". Did the jury get to hear that the ATF tested once and found it "not a machine gun"?
Where was the jury in all of this, and what did they get to see? If the BATF returned the rifle once and said "not a machine gun", and then did it again and said "machine gun", that would be enough reasonable doubt that I would vote "not guilty". Did the jury get to hear that the ATF tested once and found it "not a machine gun"?
When did agents from a particular LE agency start dealing directly with Federal Judges on discovery requests? In my experience LE agencies don't handle discovery requests, it's the Assitant United States Attorney (AUSA) prosecuting the case that deals with the judge on those issues. Further, I am doubtful that any Federal District Court Judge working criminal cases is unaware of the disclosure exceptions pertaining to Federal tax records.
Sans Authoritas
member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2008
- Messages
- 1,126
Still trying to play within the confines of "what can we accomplish by appealing to law?" Why bother? The ATF doesn't play within the confines of the law. They unconstitutionally make up arbitrary regulations that are considered "law."
You can't beat the government on its own playground. It makes up new rules to its games whenever it wants.
-Sans Authoritas
You can't beat the government on its own playground. It makes up new rules to its games whenever it wants.
-Sans Authoritas
Gene_WI
Member
This case shows the importance of having a GOOD LAWYER.
The guy is being framed etc... However representing yourself is a very bad idea.
P.S. Lending out guns is a very bad idea
The guy is being framed etc... However representing yourself is a very bad idea.
P.S. Lending out guns is a very bad idea
Drakejake
Member
The fundamental dispute seems to be whether the accused David R. Olofson intentionally modified the Olympic Arms rifle so that it had a selector that would allow three round bursts (clearly illegal) or whether the three round bursts resulted from a malfunction or defect not caused by accused (probably not illegal). The most frequently quoted source (named something like World Net Daily) is expounding the second option, but there is evidence that Olofson knew that the rifle was set up to fire in bursts (and then jam) when he lent the rifle to Kiernicki.
Drakejake
Drakejake
This shows what can happen in a jury trial. Jury members can be smart, they can be dumb, they often won't know how to interprete things they are told on complex issues except how the court tells them to interprete it.
You could take any case and try it the exact same way with 5 juries and get at least one if not more different results.
If you ever face a jury you are gambling, whether you are in the right or in the wrong. A good lawyer simply gives you better odds.
Then you have activist judges. Some judges believe rightly thier job is to apply the law and stick to that even the parts they don't agree with. Other judges believe certain things need fixing and apply what they think the law should mean. Even a judge can be a gamble.
There is a reason the image of justice is blindfolded.
If you find yourself in court over such a thing it is very much like trusting the outcome to a blind person trying to read some scales in one hand while holding a sword in the other while the lawyers toss things in opposite sides of the scales.
You could take any case and try it the exact same way with 5 juries and get at least one if not more different results.
If you ever face a jury you are gambling, whether you are in the right or in the wrong. A good lawyer simply gives you better odds.
Then you have activist judges. Some judges believe rightly thier job is to apply the law and stick to that even the parts they don't agree with. Other judges believe certain things need fixing and apply what they think the law should mean. Even a judge can be a gamble.
There is a reason the image of justice is blindfolded.
If you find yourself in court over such a thing it is very much like trusting the outcome to a blind person trying to read some scales in one hand while holding a sword in the other while the lawyers toss things in opposite sides of the scales.
revjen45
Member
The Law is just a tool for the Fedgov to enrich the legal industry and make felons of free men and women. It has nothing to do with justice.
Your complete ignorance about executive orders is at the same time both amusing and scary. The President cannot simply override an act of Congress with an executive order. You really need to do some real research into how our government works.
Bubbles
Member
http://hosts.radioamerica.org/podcast/GGL/audio/Liddy_thu_17-01-08_H1.mp3 - G. Gordon Liddy podcast from today on this case.
Another media alert: CNN is doing a segment about this case on Lou Dobbs at 7:00 pm EST either Friday night or Monday night, depending on how quickly they can put it together.
Another media alert: CNN is doing a segment about this case on Lou Dobbs at 7:00 pm EST either Friday night or Monday night, depending on how quickly they can put it together.
Gunnerpalace
Member
Did not catch it but I will quote myself on this issue:
All in all there is a lot of crazy things going on.
All in all there is a lot of crazy things going on.
green-grizzly
Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2008
- Messages
- 181
I got rid of my match trigger today. It may have doubled once (or it may have just been a bump, it was hard to tell). I guess I am back to 7 pound triggers on my AR. I have a few M16 carriers in M4geries (which supposedly aid reliability); I'll probably get rid of those too.
Consider me chilled.
Consider me chilled.
Bubbles
Member
I notice you said nothing of CNN.
FWIW FOX and MSNBC have also sent folks to WI to do their own investigative reports; I haven't heard yet if or when they'll run anything.
FWIW FOX and MSNBC have also sent folks to WI to do their own investigative reports; I haven't heard yet if or when they'll run anything.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Did anyone besides Len Savage get involved in this?
He seems to have quite an angry history with ATF, and the court would not allow him to be declared an "expert witness" from what I can find.
As for the G Gordon Liddy "news coverage" of this he simply read what Len Savage placed in his blog, no new content.
He seems to have quite an angry history with ATF, and the court would not allow him to be declared an "expert witness" from what I can find.
As for the G Gordon Liddy "news coverage" of this he simply read what Len Savage placed in his blog, no new content.
Because they haven't actually reported on it yet. Neither has Fox or MSNBC. So saying that they plan to report on it tells us nothing. They may look into and find nothing worthy of reporting, or if they do you have no way of knowing whether their reports will support the stuff from World NUT Daily, or present a different story.
cracked butt
Member
Gotta love the government.
They are hitting people over the head with serious felonies who may or may not have a piece of metal that happens to be the wrong shape inside of a gun while at the same time trying to figure out how to release child molesters back into the civilian population.
Whether or not you agree or disagree with machine gun laws, you got to wonder how our government has gotten so far out of control as to make criminals out of people over mere minutia, while giving some of the most dispicable human scum a second chance.
Where has the common sense gone?:banghead:
They are hitting people over the head with serious felonies who may or may not have a piece of metal that happens to be the wrong shape inside of a gun while at the same time trying to figure out how to release child molesters back into the civilian population.
Whether or not you agree or disagree with machine gun laws, you got to wonder how our government has gotten so far out of control as to make criminals out of people over mere minutia, while giving some of the most dispicable human scum a second chance.
Where has the common sense gone?:banghead:
TEDDY
Member
??????????
if you know the history of the ATF you will realize where they come from,the revenuers.In 1960s they had about 300 agents and were about to close down.no agency wanted their people.AND THEN CAME THE 1968 LAW.and it was a field day.now every big fire and can of paint that goes up has an agent team there,and drug busts.
-------
----:banghead:--
if you know the history of the ATF you will realize where they come from,the revenuers.In 1960s they had about 300 agents and were about to close down.no agency wanted their people.AND THEN CAME THE 1968 LAW.and it was a field day.now every big fire and can of paint that goes up has an agent team there,and drug busts.
-----------:banghead:--- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
