Relics of War

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I have often thought the stories about the M-1 Carbine's shortcomings in Korea were due to groggy, exhausted, sleep deprived GIs and Marines fighting off Communist hordes at 0200 in sub-zero temperatures. howling winds....

And ranges often far in excess of 2-300yds, where the .30 Carbine starts to run out of steam.
However, the Nork infantry didn't have it much better, being armed in large part with 7.62X25 submachine guns equally ill-suited to long range combat.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Not a bring back, but something I remember reading years ago about the Choson withdrawal, I think, I've read many books/stories about Korean War after being stationed there at Osan AFB 1969-70.

Morning after a US won firefight, a Sgt. Called his Capt. over to look at one of the wet cotton batting clothed Chicom soldier, and asked if he saw anything strange. " No" said Capt. Sgt said the Chicom wasn't wounded; look at his eyes, they followed movement, but because of the soldiers frozen clothes he had lost the use of his limbs and couldn't move.

If an impartial observer needed any more proof of Humanity's depraved insanity, our proclivity to inhabit and fight each other over virtually useless swathes of dirt in potentially lethal climates would do it.

 

[Mosin77]

And ranges often far in excess of 2-300yds, where the .30 Carbine starts to run out of steam.
However, the Nork infantry didn't have it much better, being armed in large part with 7.62X25 submachine guns equally ill-suited to long range combat.

I’ve always felt that if you look at a .30-06 round, and shoot a rifle so-chambered and feel it kick you, then look at a comparatively “tiny” .30 carbine round, and shoot the carbine, if you don’t actually know a whole lot about guns you’re probably going to come to the natural conclusion that the .30-06 is way more powerful and that therefore the carbine is, by extension, a sissy gun, fit only for rabbits and clerks.

I suspect this is doubly true when soldiers are in a tight spot and actually dependent on their rifles and their rifles only, to get them out of a bad situation. Suddenly if the enemy keeps coming, it doesn’t mean that your marksmanship was poor (frozen hands and pounding heart notwithstanding), you musta hit ‘em fair and square, but your dad gum carbine just doesn’t have the power to get the job done.

A .357 magnum is a pretty good stopper, but the carbine with similar ballistics is “weak.”

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I’ve always felt that if you look at a .30-06 round, and shoot a rifle so-chambered and feel it kick you, then look at a comparatively “tiny” .30 carbine round, and shoot the carbine, if you don’t actually know a whole lot about guns you’re probably going to come to the natural conclusion that the .30-06 is way more powerful and that therefore the carbine is, by extension, a sissy gun, fit only for rabbits and clerks.

I suspect this is doubly true when soldiers are in a tight spot and actually dependent on their rifles and their rifles only, to get them out of a bad situation. Suddenly if the enemy keeps coming, it doesn’t mean that your marksmanship was poor (frozen hands and pounding heart notwithstanding), you musta hit ‘em fair and square, but your dad gum carbine just doesn’t have the power to get the job done.

A .357 magnum is a pretty good stopper, but the carbine with similar ballistics is “weak.”

Conversly, it seems the Carbine, Thompson and Grease Gun were highly prized by US troops in the WW2 Island-hopping campaigns despite the Japanese troops' reputation for being fanatical and determined opponents, much more so than the Communist human waves in Korea. In close-quarters jungle fighting, rate-of-fire and magazine capacity trumped the power and range of the Garand and Springfield.
That, and the fact that humping a 10lb battle rifle through dense vegetation and leech-infested swamps was just as much a concern for the average GI as perceived "knockdown power."

Two very different wars for sure- and soldiers will always make do with what they have while wishing for something better.

 

[eastbank]

YOU HEAR THE SAME THINGS WITH THE M-14 AND THE M-16, BOTH HAVE GOOD COMBAT TRAITS.I CARRIED A M-14 FOR A WHILE ,BUT WAS FORCED TO A M-16, I LIKED THE M-14, BUT GREW TO LIKING THE M-16 AFTER THE BUGS WERE WORKED OUT. FOR SLOGGING THRU THE MUCK OF VIETNAM THE UPDATED M-16 WAS FOR ME ACCEPTABLE, IF I WAS A MOBILE TROOPED A M-14 OR EVEN A M-60 WOULD BEEN BETTER.

 

[12Bravo20]

The M3 and M3A1 are around 10 pounds with a full magazine. I do agree that firepower and higher capacity magazines are favored in close quarters jungle fighting. I always found the M3 and M3A1 easy to control and quite accurate when fired from the shoulder with the stock extended. The lower rate of fire made short bursts pretty easy.

I was issued the M16A1, M16A2, M3A1 and M60 while I was in the Army. And those that complain about the weight of a M1 or M14 should try carrying the M60 for a while. The M60 empty is 23 pounds and around 28 pounds with ammo. Though I had it easy compared to my assistant gunner. The AG had to carry his M16 and full combat load along with the M60 spare barrel and all the extra M60 ammo. As much as I hated the weight f the M60, I loved it when it came to a firefight. I cold lay down good suppressive fire while the rest of the squad maneuvered into position.

I am trying to remember some of the different foreign weapons I got to play with while I was in that were a bit rare for most troops to even see. The British De Lisle and Swedish K come to mind. I also got to play with older SMG's from other NATO countries too. And we came across all kinds of different weapons during Operation Desert Storm and afterwards while clearing bunkers.

 

[HarryB]

My grandfather served in Europe under Patton in WW2. He was wounded in France--shot twice in the chest and survived! I have a P-38 that he brought back (no cool story) and some of his Army medals and insignia. Sadly the P38 was in a basement flood and he wiped most of the marks from it cleaning it and then he cold blued it.
My uncle has some other Nazi daggers and swords that he kept. My dad passed the items he was given to me.

 

[armoredman]

Only war relic I own is what my grandfather made in France in 1918 with the AEF, as a carpenter wit the 333rd Engineers. It'[s a fired Mauser case with a pulled bullet, carefully sliced almost in two, and another peice of brass hammered flat and cut to resemble a Saracen sword, put in the bullet to make a letter opener. I offered to donate it to a museum once, but without papers, (really, for this little thing), they refused.

My Uncle Art was a medic in Bastonge - it broke his mind.
My stepfather was a T/Sgt radio operator on a C47 during the Normandy invasion. All i have from his is his graduation "yearbook" from radio operators school and his 1946 History of WWI book the Army gave him.
It was mentioned earlier in this thread about "oddly placed memorial guns"...how about this gem at the East Texas Oil Museum in Kilgore, TX? Mind you, this was a display meant to be at the time of the big oil boom in the early 1930s, the Daisy Bradford, (which is still pumping oil today) oil boom.



That's right, a Reising. I did call the museum after I saw it in my photos and told them that they probably needed to check the legality of that item just sitting out in a barbershop display...they had no CLUE. BTW, great little museum, highly recommend it if you are in the area.

 

[eastbank]

as a youth in the early 50,s i remember going to a gravel pit with my uncle and seeing some of his friends shooting full auto machine guns from ww-2, i don,t remember what they were but i,m sure they were not legal. they didn,t seem to worried about it as no one was trying to hide them.

 

[bangswitch]

I know/have known several combat veterans from WWII, Korea and Vietnam. Most wouldn't talk much about their experiences. One notable guy was an older gentleman, gone now, who flew P-51D's in Korea. He didn't say much about the combat, but he talked a lot about flying the plane and what it could do. My first cousin, three years older than me and the closest thing to a brother I have, has a couple of war trophies from Vietnam, like a bullet fragment and some shrapnel that stayed with him for over 30 years before the VA removed it after he started having medical problems because of it. These pieces were missed during several surgeries immediately after he got them.. I have an uncle who was decorated (Purple Heart, Silver Star) while in Europe during WWII. I never even knew he'd served in the military until shortly before his death in the early 2000's, and I'd stayed summers with him and his family during summers when I was a pre-teen working on his dairy farm. He never talked about it.

As for my own militaria, I was never in combat, but flew in to Saudi Arabia a few times from Germany during Desert Storm to medevac some of those who had seen the harder side of war. Most of their trophies would stay with them in one form or another. I have a Colt Model M pistol that was my stepfather's issued concealed sidearm during WWII, and I have a couple of Mosin-Nagant rifles that may or may not have seen combat, but are both old enough (1932 and 1944 receiver stamps). I also have a Sturmabteilung (SA) dagger that I got from an Army NCO who found it in a box of stuff in the basement of a house he rented while stationed in Germany during the late 1980's.

 

[sharkman]

I have often thought the stories about the M-1 Carbine's shortcomings in Korea were due to groggy, exhausted, sleep deprived GIs and Marines fighting off Communist hordes at 0200 in sub-zero temperatures. howling winds....

Could be due to poorly calibrated sights as well. I have a very nice Inland carbine, rear sight elevation must be set at 200 for a 100 yd zero. To shoot at 300 yds, set full up elevation and aim above the target.

 

[Savage30L]

Here's a story about great guns that could have been brought back, but weren't....

My near-90-year-old friend who lets me reload at his bench, was in the Air Force in Britain in the mid-1950s. He said one day one of his sergeants walked into the room and announced that their unit was disposing of a bunch of riot shotguns...."brand-new Winchester 97s and model 12s"..., and said, "boys, you can buy all you want, $12 each!". He said no one in his unit had enough spare cash to buy one!

 

[9x56MS]

My great uncle had his knee cap shot off in Italy during WWII. My uncle did 2 tours in Vietnam with marine corp recon. Neither one of them ever talked about their experiences.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

OR EVEN A M-60 WOULD BEEN BETTER.

My experience is that having a GPMG is great as long as someone else is humping it.

 

[HarryB]

Lamb was banned from our household for the same reason.
My Dad was in the Navy on LST's and an LSD,and my Father in Law was in the Army. Both were in the Pacific. When the wife and I were in the "dating" phase we both ordered lamb at a restaurant once and came to find out both of our Fathers hated lamb and wouldn't allow it in the house.

Most interesting. Both my grandfathers served in WW2. Neither served lamb and neither did my mother or father cook lamb for me. My first experience was kababs at a Middle Eastern restaurant. I wonder if my elders attitude of lamb reflects yours?

 

[DustyGmt]

Here's a story about great guns that could have been brought back, but weren't....

My near-90-year-old friend who lets me reload at his bench, was in the Air Force in Britain in the mid-1950s. He said one day one of his sergeants walked into the room and announced that their unit was disposing of a bunch of riot shotguns...."brand-new Winchester 97s and model 12s"..., and said, "boys, you can buy all you want, $12 each!". He said no one in his unit had enough spare cash to buy one!

That's kind of messed. Like here guys, we've been tasked with chopping and scrapping this pile of 97's but you guys can have 1 ea for a months salary. $12 back in 1950 about $150.

I probably would have passed too. That seems like probably more than they were even worth.

 

[DustyGmt]

That's right, a Reising. I did call the museum after I saw it in my photos and told them that they probably needed to check the legality of that item just sitting out in a barbershop display...they had no CLUE. BTW, great little museum, highly recommend it if you are in the area.

Holy smokes. Alot of lawmen back in, I wanna say the 50's used the Reising but I'm not sure if they made a SBR version semi-auto only. Not sure if lawmen back in that time were bound to NFA restrictions, seems like things could have been a lil more relaxed for an LEO back in that time ...

 

[eastbank]

i had goat cooked over a open fire in botswanna africa and if the lamb was like that damn goat,i would not eat it eighter. i would sooner eat my old boots. they are getting ready to cook this blue wildabeast head for supper, i declined a invite to have supper with them, i said i was to tired from the hunt.

 

[Terry G]

I have often thought the stories about the M-1 Carbine's shortcomings in Korea were due to groggy, exhausted, sleep deprived GIs and Marines fighting off Communist hordes at 0200 in sub-zero temperatures. howling winds....

Yes, it's strange in that the .30 Carbine was proved effective in WWII against both the German's and the Japanese soldiers. A Marine Veteran told me it was his carry gun for any kind of close quarter battle and he only used the M-1 Garand in defensive situations that would require long range shooting.

 

[MacAR]

I have often thought the stories about the M-1 Carbine's shortcomings in Korea were due to groggy, exhausted, sleep deprived GIs and Marines fighting off Communist hordes at 0200 in sub-zero temperatures. howling winds....

You may be on to something there. I can't shoot worth a darn when I'm uncomfortable, and what you describe goes past my definition of miserable!

Mac

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Only war relic I own is what my grandfather made in France in 1918 with the AEF, as a carpenter wit the 333rd Engineers. It'[s a fired Mauser case with a pulled bullet, carefully sliced almost in two, and another peice of brass hammered flat and cut to resemble a Saracen sword, put in the bullet to make a letter opener. I offered to donate it to a museum once, but without papers, (really, for this little thing), they refused.
View attachment 1161273
My Uncle Art was a medic in Bastonge - it broke his mind.
My stepfather was a T/Sgt radio operator on a C47 during the Normandy invasion. All i have from his is his graduation "yearbook" from radio operators school and his 1946 History of WWI book the Army gave him.
It was mentioned earlier in this thread about "oddly placed memorial guns"...how about this gem at the East Texas Oil Museum in Kilgore, TX? Mind you, this was a display meant to be at the time of the big oil boom in the early 1930s, the Daisy Bradford, (which is still pumping oil today) oil boom.

View attachment 1161274

That's right, a Reising. I did call the museum after I saw it in my photos and told them that they probably needed to check the legality of that item just sitting out in a barbershop display...they had no CLUE. BTW, great little museum, highly recommend it if you are in the area.

There was a small town in N.C. Illinois that once had a memorial to the local World War veterans, but it was eventually dismantled and the relics moved to the attic of the Town Hall/ Library.
As a kid, I would go up there to play with the artifacts while Mom was studying in the archives. My favorite "toy" was a dusty and forgotten Lewis Gun, complete and AFAIK functional save for the missing magazine.
I never said anything to the elderly Librarian about the (almost certainly unregistered) machine gun in the attic. Its probably still there.

 

[armoredman]

Holy smokes. Alot of lawmen back in, I wanna say the 50's used the Reising but I'm not sure if they made a SBR version semi-auto only. Not sure if lawmen back in that time were bound to NFA restrictions, seems like things could have been a lil more relaxed for an LEO back in that time ...

I doubt it, and it didn't fit the diorama at all, being it was supposed to be the 30s.






But, I digress, sorry. I should add that the only firearm my stepfather liked during WWII was the Thompson, said it really impressed him, but as Army Air Force he really didn't carry a firearms very much.
Grandpa said as far back as they were during WWI, the only time they were issued live ammo for the Springfields was AFTER the war was over - the celebrations were completely out of control.
I was going to bring back 4 of the expended 3"50 brass shells when I was deployed, but the laws changed and the Navy took them all back to recycle them. Dagnabbit.