Reloading confusion

[LiveLife]

load data in my manuals was determined by someone much smarter than me and with equipment much more sophisticated than my hand feeling recoil, and the listed loads were there for a reason.

That's what I used to think too but found out actual pistols (that feed from magazines) are not even used for pressure testing rather universal testing fixture, essentially single shot "device" that accepts multiple barrels. So since reliable slide cycling and spent case extraction/ejection are not tested for various published load data, I am thinking certain minimum chamber pressure is referenced for start charge that produced consistent enough average pressure curve indicating more efficient powder burn. (And hence why using published start charge may not reliably cycle many pistols . But there's more, so read on ).

And this is why reloaders must conduct full powder work up to determine at what powder charge slide reliably cycles, produce enough recoil force to push slide back far enough to clear the magazine and reliably strip top round from the magazine as slide returns to battery, extract spent cases with enough velocity to eject without stove piping, etc. And since different pistols and barrels vary in dimensions and design (Like recoil spring rate, groove diameter of barrel, leade length, etc.) this threshold powder charge can vary for different pistols/barrels.

For me, the most important part of load development and powder work up is identifying the threshold powder charge as once this powder charge is identified, I can then focus on accuracy trends to work towards determining the powder charge that produces smallest groups. And then I can incrementally decrease the OAL (say by .005") to see if accuracy improves from deeper seating depth which increases chamber pressure from increased neck tension.

So to me, the published start charge is a rough guideline to get reloaders "within the ballpark" but it will be up to us to determine what powder charge will produce the greatest accuracy without exceeding published max charge as many reloaders found out that max charge doesn't always produce optimal accuracy and sometimes, there are more than one accuracy nodes with even below start charge produced sufficient accuracy (So during my powder work up, if I see accuracy trend at start charge and reliable slide cycling, I will conduct powder "work down").

And for those simply looking to reload general purpose range blasting ammo to punch holes in paper with decent accuracy, the threshold powder charge accuracy may be "good enough". So the notion of "I will just use mid-range load data" as a compromise of pressure and accuracy may not apply for all powders, especially for W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol and faster burning powders that have shown they can produce acceptable accuracy even at start and sometimes at slightly below start charge.

Of course, the usual THR obligatory disclaimer of using published load data should be mentioned, especially for those new to reloading.

 

[Sirspeedy77]

I’m not too proud to admit I started wrong because I figured I would be ok. I saw a couple posts that said most people had reliable to feed problems and skipped my 4.4 load altogether. In hind sight it’s another lesson learned lol. Every gun is different. I did notice the bit where people use lighter springs to be able to shoot lighter loads. I am intrigued by that bit. But for now I’ll walk before I run. Reliable, safe, economic reloads are in my long term future. I am relieved to know that if I miss my COAL I’ll be safe at minimums. The more and more I read showed a disaster happening everywhere I turned due to specs being off by .002-.004 and I kinda freaked out lol. I am glad to know I have a little wiggle room and min listed loads for these errors. I’m using a single stage lee anniversary kit. The slop/slack in their quick change bushing drives me nuts lol.

on a lighter note after punching out another 50 and getting a too deep oal on 20% of my cartridges I started inspecting which brand the brass was. Turns out brass stamped “F C” is the main culprit. I don’t know if it’s my setup or universal I just know now to sort it out and run it separate for sure. It takes a full quarter turn less on my seating equip to keep it in range lol. There are many nuances to this hobby and it’s a road full of knowledge and good forums / community’s experience to keep newcomers like me outta trouble and in the safe zone!

Anyhow, thought I’d share my days find about the brass. LiveLife, you’re extremely knowledgeable - I’m gonna spend some times reading all your posts haha

 

[Dudedog]

You might want to verify you neck tension is good on the FC brass.
I have a small piece of 2X4 on my bench. For a quick check I just rap the cartridge nose down a couple times on the board and see if I am getting setback.
Don't baby it but you are not trying to drive the bullet thru the board either...

I would load a dummy with the FC brass (no powder/primer) and cycle it thru your pistol and check and see if you are getting setback.
To much setback in 9mm can cause bad things to happen....

A little is ok, hard to say how much is ok but .01" is probably at the edge.

Some people will use a scale and see how much pressure it takes to cause setback.

 

[Blue68f100]

You want a max of 0.010" on 2-3 chambers . I believe Lyman had a chart showing setback on a 9mm that the pressure almost doubled with a 0.030" setback. It's highly dependent on the powder you used. Some like TG are very sensitive to case volume will get you into trouble very quickly.

 

[buba68]

I’m not too proud to admit I started wrong because I figured I would be ok. I saw a couple posts that said most people had reliable to feed problems and skipped my 4.4 load altogether. In hind sight it’s another lesson learned lol. Every gun is different. I did notice the bit where people use lighter springs to be able to shoot lighter loads. I am intrigued by that bit. But for now I’ll walk before I run. Reliable, safe, economic reloads are in my long term future. I am relieved to know that if I miss my COAL I’ll be safe at minimums. The more and more I read showed a disaster happening everywhere I turned due to specs being off by .002-.004 and I kinda freaked out lol. I am glad to know I have a little wiggle room and min listed loads for these errors. I’m using a single stage lee anniversary kit. The slop/slack in their quick change bushing drives me nuts lol.

What brand loading dies are you using?

I use the Lee 4 die set for my 9mm loading. A lot of people do not think much of the Lee dies but for me they have turned out several thousand 9mm and they have all fed, fired and ejected without any issues. My seating die holds COL +/- .001 even with mixed range brass. One time I thought I had an issue with seating but the Calipers were going bad. New set of Calipers and everything back to normal.



]

 

[rfwobbly]

I saw a couple posts that said most people had reliable to feed problems and skipped my 4.4 load altogether. In hind sight it’s another lesson learned lol. Every gun is different. I did notice the bit where people use lighter springs to be able to shoot lighter loads. I am intrigued by that bit. But for now I’ll walk before I run.

If you'll work up your loads correctly, then all these other items will naturally fall into place for free. What I mean is always begin at the Starting Load (the lowest load given). Then work up 5-10 cartridges per load, with each group loaded 0.1 to 0.2gr increments higher than the last group. Starting with the lowest power, shoot each group of cartridges at a new paper target from a supported position. You'll most likely see the shot groups converge, and then open back up. The tightest group is (by definition) the most accurate for that powder-bullet combination in that gun, and obviously the load you'll want to use from then on.... regardless of what the slide is doing.



Since most handguns come sprung fairly high for full-power "self defense loads", it's completely realistic to find that your low-power "accuracy load" doesn't have the poop to make the slide work as it should. It's then that most people would decide that Maximum Accuracy is the most desirable trait a target gun can have. If that's the case, then call a supplier like Wolff Spring and order several reduced recoil force springs for your pistol. For instance, if the stock gun comes with an 18lb recoil spring, you might wish to try a 16, 14 and 12lb spring set.

But you can only do this if you've shot multiple groups consisting of "incremental loads". You can't jump around and find this out. Nor can you pick 2 loads willy-nilly and get this information. Nor can you let other people's results affect your testing. You said it yourself... Every gun is different. If you believe that, then why are you skipping 4.4gr based on what other people's guns did ? If every gun IS different, then for all you know 4.4gr might be the bomb in your gun. Some parts of reloading are "art", but this testing part is pure science. And we are using the Scientific Method exactly because every gun is different.

And that's exactly why we shoot incremental loads... because no one can predict the outcome.



All the best !

https://www.gunsprings.com/

 

[Sirspeedy77]

Buba- I am using lee dies, I have ordered a separate taper due to help, should be here tomorrow.

rfwobbly - I appreciate your sound advice. In my continuation to learn I agree with your post 100% thank you.

 

[buba68]

Buba- I am using lee dies, I have ordered a separate taper due to help, should be here tomorrow.

Are you using the 3 die set or the 4 die set?

 

[Dudedog]

I find it helpfull when working up loads to color the bottom of the case with a sharpie to help keep track.
Wally world has packs of 8 colors for about $10 (get the wide tip ones)
Then I will make a little sticker with whats what

Say
Blue 4.0gr
Green 4.2
Purple 4.4
Orange 4.6
Red 4.8
etc
If they are in an ammo box nose down it's easy to mark the bases

This is handy if you decide you want to have fun sorting things and pour them all on the ground.......
(not that that would ever happen to me)

Also handy if you have a piece of brass you loaded and don't want to use again-base black or whatever color you like. Then when you pick up brass you know that one.

 

[Dudedog]

Also handy even if you are not working up to mark them then if you are at a range you can tell if they are your brass,
For example .223 brass that you have removed primer pocket crimps on.
My MIni 14 tends to throw brass a ways (like 15') so if they are marked when I go to chase them down I can tell they are mine.

 

[Cannibul]

You want a max of 0.010" on 2-3 chambers . I believe Lyman had a chart showing setback on a 9mm that the pressure almost doubled with a 0.030" setback. It's highly dependent on the powder you used. Some like TG are very sensitive to case volume will get you into trouble very quickly.

It was RCBS in one of their manuals. There's a big thread here discussing it. The pressure more than doubled,

 

[fxvr5]

Speer had in their older load manuals (e.g. #10) a caution to make sure that rounds had good neck tension to prevent setback in their 9mm data. They found that a load that produced 28,000 CUP went to 62,000 CUP when the bullets were seated 0.030" deeper. At the time, 35,700 CUP was the industry maximum limit. They gave no specifics on the load, bullet weight or powder used.

 

[LiveLife]

Speer ... caution to make sure that rounds had good neck tension to prevent setback in their 9mm data.

They found that a load that produced 28,000 CUP went to 62,000 CUP when the bullets were seated 0.030" deeper. At the time, 35,700 CUP was the industry maximum limit.

Very good point about bullet setback.

So when conducting load development and powder work up, be sure to test bullet setback by feeding dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it.

And if you want to reduce/eliminate bullet setback, consider thicker case wall brass or using larger sized bullets (.3555"-.356" instead of .354"-.355") - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

 

[rfwobbly]

So when conducting load development and powder work up, be sure to test bullet setback by feeding dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it.

Gosh that is truly inspirational !!

Not to me, but to 15 Nashville C&W song writers who are now hard at work writing the next big patriotic hit "Don't Ride the Slide If You Walk Through Portland", or something like that. Or maybe it's a sad, crying in your beer country song, like "I'm Getting Setback! Cause She's No Longer Ridin' My Slide". Maybe a song of unrequited love, like "I'm Just a Dummy Round She Keeps Around".

The possibilities are truly endless.
.

 

[LiveLife]

Hey now, if you want to ride the slide, that's your choice. But won't do much to test bullet setback.

Remember, it's not the "finished OAL" rather "chambered OAL" that matters.

 

[Kornbred]

You want a max of 0.010" on 2-3 chambers . I believe Lyman had a chart showing setback on a 9mm that the pressure almost doubled with a 0.030" setback. It's highly dependent on the powder you used. Some like TG are very sensitive to case volume will get you into trouble very quickly.

30 thou is like a mile