Reloading for the Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 / .303brit

[WelshShooter]

Hi folks,

There's been a good thread recently on developing a good load by @Nature Boy and thought I'd add some further knowledge via my Lee Enfield No.4 Mk1. Whilst the method described by Nature Boy looks at changes in bullet velocity between powder charges and shifts in point of impact, I only focused on precision and vertical shifts between powder charges. Note: I cannot measure velocity using a MagnetoSpeed using this rifle due to the full length wood work.

This rifle is factory standard but the rear battle sight has been replaced with a Parker Hale PH5C rear aperture sight. This sight has a fine micrometer adjustment for windage and elevation and also features an adjustable size rear aperture hole. For load development, I tend to shoot this rifle from a bench, using a front and rear bag at a distance of 100m to ensure that the rifle is in a stable platform. I do not use the sling. See picture below from Saturday 15th June 2019.



Back in November of last year, I developed a great load using fired PPU/Privi brass, 180gr S&B bullets, Vihtavuori N140 powder and CCI 200 primers. The brass had the shoulders bumped back 0.002" (measured using a shoulder bump gauge) and trimmed to 2.212". The charge of 39.7gr produced a very precise group which also gave the same point of impact as my zero load.









I've recently bought 500 brand new PPU cases, and this is where I made a major learning point and hence the purpose of this thread. The Lee Enfield is known for having a very generous chamber to ensure reliable feeding when shooting in dirty conditions as you'd expect during wartime. This is of no benefit to the reloader. I measured the new brass from case-head to shoulder datum using my shoulder bump gauge and found that this measurement is 0.040" shorter compared with my shoulder bumped, fire formed brass! Therefore, it is highly likely that my previously developed load of 39.7gr N140 is not going to shoot well in this rifle as there will be a change in pressure when shooting. This may result in a shift in the point of impact and/or precision.

I sized the brass using my full length die, which made no difference to the shoulder bump length, but it did straighten out case mouths which had dinged during transit but at least they're all uniform now. I decided to back off the powder charge to 38.5gr and work my way back up to 39.7gr in 0.3gr increments. I then shot a string of 5 shots of each powder charge, then repeat the same test using another 5 shots of each powder charge. The reason behind this is that I always have a feeling in the back of my head that my group size tends to open up at higher charges due to fatigue.

Both cycles confirmed that 38.5gr of N140 produced a good, precise group and that my idea of shooters fatigue is not an issue. However, using new brass required +3 clicks in elevation from zero to achieve the same point of impact as per the fired brass test. During the first cycle, I did decide to move the final group (39.7gr) up by +6 clicks as I was struggling to see my bullet impacts. In hindsight, I should not have changed this if I wished to see a shift in vertical, but in the end this was confirmed with my second string. The second string of shooting showed that all groups had the same point of impact, with no major shift in the vertical direction. This was a bit strange for me as my first test on fired brass showed vertical shifts whereas using new brass I did not see any vertical shifts.

In conclusion, I have learned that with the Lee Enfield there is a significant difference between using fire formed brass and brand new brass, especially if you have a generous chamber. I've now got a good load which can be used with the remaining 450 new brass cases and after these have been used, I can continue using my previously developed load. Back to the reloading bench I guess!

1st Round of New Brass













2nd Round of New Brass

 

[WelshShooter]

Oops forgot to mention, in the second set of targets due to the range being busy I wasn't able to photograph the target after each charge. I noted bullet position in my notepad using my bins and added bullet holes on the computer when I got home.

Orange = bullet holes for displayed charge,
Cyan = bullet holes from previous powder charges.

Makes it easier to see where the groups were for comparison.

 

[25-20 WCF]

Three clicks to regain the former poi can be typical on different days with different light conditions, particularly using the SMLE sights. An interesting test and discussion, thanks.

 

[WelshShooter]

Three clicks to regain the former poi can be typical on different days with different light conditions, particularly using the SMLE sights. An interesting test and discussion, thanks.

No problem, and thanks for reading. It will be interesting to see if my poi shifts over time depending on weather etc. I'll see how this goes over the coming months!

 

[Slamfire]

In conclusion, I have learned that with the Lee Enfield there is a significant difference between using fire formed brass and brand new brass, especially if you have a generous chamber. I've now got a good load which can be used with the remaining 450 new brass cases and after these have been used, I can continue using my previously developed load. Back to the reloading bench I guess!

I don't doubt there might be changes in POI as your cases fireform. I have a number of Lee Enfields and I would say based on the cases that came out of the rifles, the British did not standardize on base to shoulder distances, nor shoulder contours.










Fired cases out of my MK2's have sloped shoulders, the wartime Lee Enfields have rounded shoulders.

Something I am going to suggest, is lubricate your cases and fire them lubricated. They will stretch something awful because the rear locking mechanism has an amazing amount of flex. Parashooter showed the way to long case life in the Lee Enfield:



I followed the same practice in my 30-30, that is lubricating the cases, in this case, with a hair gel available at Dollar General. This stuff has the consistency of a toilet bowl ring, it is pretty hard. I have also used vasoline, or just, case lube. Case lube is very expensive compared to a jar of hair gel and does not have a pleasant evergreen or ocean spray aroma .






What you can see is just how much my 30-30 cases had to stretch to fill the chamber of my Marlin 336. Marlin was absolutely unconcerned about case life, or accuracy!. I talked with them, and the guys in New Haven knew their customer base neither reloaded, cleaned their rifles, or practiced to improve their marksmanship. The guys who bought millions of lever actions took the things out once a year, at best shot a box of ammunition (maybe only once) to sight it in, went out and shot a deer around 50 yards away, maybe 70 extreme range, and put the weapon up without cleaning the mechanism. Some did push a patch down the barrel, but not every owner. As such, Marlin cut my chamber with a reamer slightly smaller than a Zeppelin. And, the bullet has to jump two tenths of an inch before it encounters rifling!

As such, firing my cases lubed prevented sidewall stretch. A lubed case will slide to the bolt face, the shoulders will fold out, and you end up with a perfectly fireformed, stress free case.

This practice is worth considering if you want to take your cases more than five reloads.

 

[WelshShooter]

Hah, I was wondering when you were going to show up @Slamfire I just knew this would be the perfect opportunity to read more on the lubing of ammunition.

Do you think it's still worthwhile even if I perform minimal full length sizing? I only bump the shoulders back 0.002" to ensure smooth feeding and to (supposidly) ensure my rounds are more concentric.

I'll have to keep a box of twenty cases and split them into ten loaded as normal and ten lubed up, and see how long they last when all other variables are constant.

 

[Slamfire]

Do you think it's still worthwhile even if I perform minimal full length sizing? I only bump the shoulders back 0.002" to ensure smooth feeding and to (supposidly) ensure my rounds are more concentric.

If you look at Parashooter's results, lubing the cases will increase case life. I don't remember how much he set the shoulders back, but 35 reloads without a case head separation? That is beyond belief for a Lee Enfield.

The basic problem with the Lee Enfield is that the action is so flexible that even a zero clearance case, is going to stretch badly when fired. That is not a problem with a military rifles, after all, Soldiers get issued new ammunition, and no one expects them to take time out from the war to reload fired cases.

It does not take much lube to get a benefit. Just size your cases, bump the shoulder back enough for adequate clearance, lets say 0.003", and leave the case lube on. The M1a shooter from whom I learned this, he never removed the case lube. He rolled fired cases in a towel, added 21 drops of RCBS case lube on the 88 rounds, rolled well, and sized, primed, etc to a loaded case. After all that handling his cases had a slightly greasy feel. He took 308 Win cases all shooting season, which is around 20 to 20 firings without a case head separation.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Grafs sells the Hornady 174gr .312” BTHP Match bullet. It’s easily the most accurate bullet in my #4Mk1 1943 Fazerkerly, that has been FTR and sports a like new barrel. .311” bullets shoot “ok”, but the .312” Hornady are superior.

I shot a Modern Military Match a couple of years ago. In spite of Swiss straight pulls, Norwegian 6.5’s, O3A3’s, the match was won with a ParkerHale #4Mk2 with Identical sight. The shooter was using Sierra 174gr MK’s over VV-N140. Don’t remember his charge weight. He was using PPU brass...
Yes, the Enfields were “battle rifles”. Some are/were pretty darn good target rifles, too.
Mine is my favorite range toy. A #4Mk1 was the first center fire rifle I ever shot. I’ve got a soft spot for them.

I prefer BLC2 as it gives best velocity at lower pressures. Second favorite is RL15. H4895, too.
I only have one rifle so brass sized just enough to size neck and clean-up case body and concentricity, and bump shoulder to allow easy chambering allows long case life. Most split the necks before incipient case head separation.

I mostly shoot Lee 185gr RNGC over 20gr of #2400. Off-hand at 100yds, it will give my RRA NM AR15 a run for the money!
It’s the “wobbly nut” holding the stock that’s the problem.

 

[GaryL]

Good info, and nice shooting Welshshooter. I assume those are 100 yd targets?

Edit, my bad - 100m. Was looking for yds and skipped right over it. (even better shooting )

 

[mustanger98]

The Brits, as I recall, used yardage for their sight graduations. I recall hearing that when they changed to meters, they didn't change rear sights, but rather ignored the difference between standard and metric.

Thinking of .303's as target rifles... kinda OT, but can y'all picture Queen (then-Princess) Elizabeth behind a No1 Mk3 with a Parker-Hale aperture sight?

 

[WelshShooter]

The Brits, as I recall, used yardage for their sight graduations. I recall hearing that when they changed to meters, they didn't change rear sights, but rather ignored the difference between standard and metric.

Thinking of .303's as target rifles... kinda OT, but can y'all picture Queen (then-Princess) Elizabeth behind a No1 Mk3 with a Parker-Hale aperture sight?

During the second World War she joined the Auxiliary Territorial Service and trained to drive military vehicles and as a mechanic.

So I could absolutely imagine that!

 

[WelshShooter]

I mostly shoot Lee 185gr RNGC over 20gr of #2400. Off-hand at 100yds, it will give my RRA NM AR15 a run for the money!
It’s the “wobbly nut” holding the stock that’s the problem.

Ain't that the truth! It's the reason I use front and rear bags!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

During the second World War she joined the Auxiliary Territorial Service and trained to drive military vehicles and as a mechanic.

So I could absolutely imagine that!

And she slept in the Tubes (subway) with her people and comforted the scared children.

 

[mustanger98]

I mostly shoot Lee 185gr RNGC over 20gr of #2400. Off-hand at 100yds, it will give my RRA NM AR15 a run for the money!

What diameter is this one? I've been thinking on trying a .314 170gr LFP, but this one won't be GC. Just generally can't run as fast as GC or jacketed.

 

[mustanger98]

During the second World War she joined the Auxiliary Territorial Service and trained to drive military vehicles and as a mechanic.

So I could absolutely imagine that!

Well, don't really have to imagine it because if you google search, there're old photos of her both during a range session and in the British Army motor pool.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I had to “beagle” my mold to cast large enough to cast a boolit sizeable to .314” .
I suspect it was a 180gr .309” mold, to begin with. Badly undersized bullet.
I definitely recommend gas-checking bullets for loads above 1,200fps.

 

[Scooter22]

Good thread. So good that after seeing Slamfire's post again extolling the virtues of Murray's magical bees wax I thought I'd try some. I have 3, .303 Brits and 5, 30-30s of various models and ages. I needed paper towels so I headed to Dollar General where I found a jar of Murray's in the ethnic hair product section. At the check out was a young African American woman with braided hair that obviously had a similar product on them . She rang up the paper towels and then looked at me funny with the jar of Murray's. I said " I read that stuff works great". She replied with a smile "Yes it does". I said " I can't wait to try it". She started to laugh and said" I hope it works good for you". I don't know why she'd laugh at a middle age white guy with straight brown hair buying a product for fros and braids. Now if my wife picks up the jar and looks at me funny I'm blaming Slamfire.

 

[mstreddy]

Welsh, Slamfire, excellent information from the both of you.
Now, I have to ask, I own three SMLE variants, 2 of them the No4Mk1* versions, and I can't remember the third at the moment. I also own a P14 and one of the Ross MkII rifles. So, would it be possible to load for all three SMLEs and the other .303s and still get decent case life?
And, Scooter, if you think it's bad with you as the

middle age white guy with straight brown hair buying a product for fros and braids.

Imagine what they may think when this middle aged, balding and buzz cut guy picks up the jar?

But, I'm going to have to try it. I want to shoot my .303s and even 8MMs more.

 

[Slamfire]

Good thread. So good that after seeing Slamfire's post again extolling the virtues of Murray's magical bees wax I thought I'd try some. I have 3, .303 Brits and 5, 30-30s of various models and ages. I needed paper towels so I headed to Dollar General where I found a jar of Murray's in the ethnic hair product section. At the check out was a young African American woman with braided hair that obviously had a similar product on them . She rang up the paper towels and then looked at me funny with the jar of Murray's. I said " I read that stuff works great". She replied with a smile "Yes it does". I said " I can't wait to try it". She started to laugh and said" I hope it works good for you". I don't know why she'd laugh at a middle age white guy with straight brown hair buying a product for fros and braids. Now if my wife picks up the jar and looks at me funny I'm blaming Slamfire.

LOL!. Luckily for all I did not recommend Blue Ointment for Crabs! Vasoline will work, any of the hair gels will work, light lithium grease works.




And, Johnson Paste wax rubbed on the case works. I tried Murray's to find something similar to the grease used by the Swiss on their ammunition.



I ended up using hair gels because they are a little harder than vasoline and wash off easily. I don't like industrial greases as grease gets all over my fingers and I often bring my lunch to the range, and don't want to be eating industrial friction reducing additives!

 

[Slamfire]

Welsh, Slamfire, excellent information from the both of you.
Now, I have to ask, I own three SMLE variants, 2 of them the No4Mk1* versions, and I can't remember the third at the moment. I also own a P14 and one of the Ross MkII rifles. So, would it be possible to load for all three SMLEs and the other .303s and still get decent case life?
And, Scooter, if you think it's bad with you as the

Imagine what they may think when this middle aged, balding and buzz cut guy picks up the jar?

But, I'm going to have to try it. I want to shoot my .303s and even 8MMs more.

I don't know. Each of those rifles was cut with a different reamer. I have gotten away with full length sizing and lubing cases in 308 Win and 30-06. I have shot military ammunition in military rifles, really lubed up, such as Garands, M14 barrels, FAL barrels, and then sized them in my small base dies. I can tell that the cases came out huge out of the military rifles. Military chambers are huge. But, once I reload the stuff, I fire it in commercial chambers.

When I first starting shooting greased military cases, I had at least a thousand CAVIM 308 ammunition. The cases were good, but the bullets were very inaccurate. So I decided to shoot them all up in my FAL



I had been experimenting with lubes, and I had purchased a tube of stick wax. Stick wax is something you put on saw blades, and it really stays on the surface. And I am going to say, don't use stick wax as a case lube! Anyway, I scooped handfulls of stick wax into a bag full of CAVIM rounds, shaked and baked the stuff, and took it to the range. Cases were covered with uneven globs of stick wax and I did not wipe the stuff down. I filled my 20 round magazines and fired. Stick wax filled the air, like tiny little snowflakes the stuff came down from everywhere and coated my glasses, hair, hands, gun, etc. I think I shot up more than half of my CAVIM ammunition coated in stick wax, and getting that stuff off me, the gun, the fired cases, was a difficult task. Stick wax does not dissolve in much of anything! But, the cases were fine after tumbling in media, hard sizing because they were huge, but they shoot great in my match rifles.

My 303 Brit, I have zero'd all my rifles, mostly with Greek HXP ball, but I decided to reload for one MK2. Shoulder profiles are extremely varied between the rifles. But I bedded the MK2 and installed Parker Hale sights. That rifle will shoot 3 MOA with good ammunition. So I fired new ammunition in all the others, but only reloaded for one. I will shoot up my issue ammunition, well greased, in military rifles, because neither the ammunition, nor the rifles, are all that accurate. This is good 150 SMK ammunition fired in an issue Garand, and this is what an issue rifle will do. Hold the black.



All you had to do with the thing, is hit the black, and you got the highest score. The V was added later to break ties.



So, I shoot up inaccurate military ammunition in inaccurate military rifles, but save the fired cases for the good rifles.

This is military brass fired in a Douglas barreled NM Garand on the 5V target. And all the rounds were coated in Johnson's paste wax.



My concern about firing the same ammunition in multiple military chambers is not so much longitudinal expansion, which greasing the cases will prevent sidewall stretch, it is more concerned with radial expansion. I just don't know what case life will be firing the stuff in different rifles having military chambers, all cut with different reamers. Might work well, might not. Don't know.

 

[mstreddy]

Slamfire, Nice FAL. But, on the backdrop of the Stars and Stripes? Wouldn't it be more at home with some Nato or other country's flag? Right arm of the free world and all.

Just kidding, I do have one as well, though not as nice as yours. I think I like the FAL better than the HK 91. And, IIRC, the US considered the FAL before adopting the M14.

On the Military rifles. I do have some milsurp ammo for some of the cartridges, but since I reload, I want to be able to build up some shooting, plinking ammo for them all.
A lot of the milsurp ammo has dried up, and some just wasn't common to begin with -- thinking Japanese - both 6.5 and 7.7, or the 6.5 Carcano. And even the GP11 for the Swiss is no more.

I'll have to try and see how the lubed up cases do for the .303s. And I'll have to try it in the others as well. If case life is extended, then what's not to love? I understand the chambers are different, way different in most cases. I've noticed a huge difference in my 7.7 Jap cases from one rifle to the other (one is a "last ditch" variant). Though in my Swedish Mausers the cases weren't noticeably different -- I didn't measure them, but visually speaking.

I guess I can say, the end state for me, in .303, is to be able to load some decent ammo that may work alright in the rifles, knowing that it may not be optimal for any of them. And, I'd like to get at least a handful of reloads from each case.

So, time to start experimenting.