Remove LEO exemption from firearm laws?
- Thread starter drphil
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RancidSumo
Member
This is a tough one. On one hand, I don't think that they should be allowed to do things we can't. OTOH, I like the idea that while we might not be able to carry in certain places, at least there is a chance someone who is able to will be there.
Autolycus
Member
Why does LE need these weapons? We should eliminate CCW for law enforcement.
The reason we are concerned is that the LEO organizations always ask for exemption. And LEOs are always being used as the potential victims of guns such as assault weapons, armor piercing bullets, etc.
If they would speak up and say that it is not true, then we would be equal. They should ask for CCW for everyone. I know a few cops support it but it seems many are unwilling to step up and say it openly.
The reason we are concerned is that the LEO organizations always ask for exemption. And LEOs are always being used as the potential victims of guns such as assault weapons, armor piercing bullets, etc.
If they would speak up and say that it is not true, then we would be equal. They should ask for CCW for everyone. I know a few cops support it but it seems many are unwilling to step up and say it openly.
Steve in PA
Member
Change your state laws. Elect different politicians.
In my town, a non-LEO has several NFA firearms including and Uzi, several other full-auto weapons and also several silencers. I know because I've actually shot a few of them and signed off on his fingerprint cards.
So, yes.....a non-LEO can own anything a LEO can. Your problem is with your state government.
In my town, a non-LEO has several NFA firearms including and Uzi, several other full-auto weapons and also several silencers. I know because I've actually shot a few of them and signed off on his fingerprint cards.
So, yes.....a non-LEO can own anything a LEO can. Your problem is with your state government.
Steve in PA
Member
And if a non-LEO can't have something, then a LEO can't either?
So, if a non-LEO can't walk around with mace, handcuffs, ASP, taser, etc. then neither should the LEO???
So, if a non-LEO can't walk around with mace, handcuffs, ASP, taser, etc. then neither should the LEO???
Steve in PA said:
Absolutely. Does the officer have more a right to safety than everyone else? If a cop gets attacked, backup will arrive in a few min. tops. If a store clerk gets attacked on the way to the bank, it might be 5-10 min. Who needs the special tools?
Steve in PA said:
Yeah, but a LEO will only pay $1000 for their full auto AR while the non-LEO has to pay $10K for their 20 year old full auto AR. You are right. That makes perfect sense.
Efforts to obtain support for civilian carry via HB 218 failed, so the question is would going the other way have any effect.
I would not say efforts have failed. It took how many years for someone to get the ball rolling with HR218? It took 4-5 years to get HR218 passed and that was 2004. Almost 4 years later there are still states unsure as to how they will apply to "their officers". They pretty much have to accept it for out of state LEOs as it's Federal law.
There are requirements to be met under HR218. Many of these were hashed out over the years it took to get it passed. Any Federal law requiring recognition of a state issued CCP or whatever you want to call it would undoubtedly have requirements.
You can't get it all at once.
Yeah, but a LEO will only pay $1000 for their full auto AR while the non-LEO has to pay $10K for their 20 year old full auto AR.
You can blame the CLEO that signs off on it. LEOs buying their own full auto weapons is not as common as one might think. It's generally unheard of in large agencies. The few I personally know of is because the CLEO is "gun friendly" so that's not a bad thing.
I would not say efforts have failed. It took how many years for someone to get the ball rolling with HR218? It took 4-5 years to get HR218 passed and that was 2004. Almost 4 years later there are still states unsure as to how they will apply to "their officers". They pretty much have to accept it for out of state LEOs as it's Federal law.
There are requirements to be met under HR218. Many of these were hashed out over the years it took to get it passed. Any Federal law requiring recognition of a state issued CCP or whatever you want to call it would undoubtedly have requirements.
You can't get it all at once.
Yeah, but a LEO will only pay $1000 for their full auto AR while the non-LEO has to pay $10K for their 20 year old full auto AR.
You can blame the CLEO that signs off on it. LEOs buying their own full auto weapons is not as common as one might think. It's generally unheard of in large agencies. The few I personally know of is because the CLEO is "gun friendly" so that's not a bad thing.
I disagree that the LEO exceptions should be eliminated. I highly agree that the stupid laws controlling possession and carry by law abiding citizens should be repealed. It the latter occured the former would be unnecessary now wouldn't it.
modifiedbrowning
Member
I suppose that one could argue that police exemptions prove that gun control does not work. If police need full auto weapons to combat criminals (N. Hollywood) and those full autos are priced out of the range of most normal law abiding citizens, then the law is ineffective. Most law abiding citizens do not have full auto weapons but some criminals do.
If law abiding citizens aren't allowed more than 10 rnds in a magazine, why do police need 15 to fight criminals? Because they are criminals and not law abiding citizens. They will not follow the law to not possess illegal "Hi-cap" magazines.
If felons are barred from owning firearms why do police need firearms to deal with them? Because they will not follow the law barring them from having a firearm.
The police exemption is a perfect example of the fact that laws restricting firearms do not work because the police need an exemption to fight crime with weapons that are illegal to have in the first place.
If law abiding citizens aren't allowed more than 10 rnds in a magazine, why do police need 15 to fight criminals? Because they are criminals and not law abiding citizens. They will not follow the law to not possess illegal "Hi-cap" magazines.
If felons are barred from owning firearms why do police need firearms to deal with them? Because they will not follow the law barring them from having a firearm.
The police exemption is a perfect example of the fact that laws restricting firearms do not work because the police need an exemption to fight crime with weapons that are illegal to have in the first place.
Guys lets just end this debate with a logical conclusion.
Many of you do not like cops (for many different reasons) and do not think they should have anything that the private citizens are not allowed. Okay.
Let's disband all police forces. Now wait. If the cops are as restricted as the private citizens very few people are going to want to do the job. HEy I'm a member of the NRA and a cop. I don't want to do this job if I don't have my OC,bodyarmor, Taser, radio, asp, shotgun, handcuffs or marked patrol car. No way.
But why we're at it we also need to disarm the military. Especially the military. I'm not being silly. It's the logical conclusion and I have no doubt that L. Neil Smith would agree.
Of course once the cops and the military is disarmed then everyone else can turn in their various armaments. It's the logical conclusion.
Oh by the way there is a sheriff department to the south of my town which covers a county the size of New Jersey and has two deputies working at night. There back up is often an hour or more away. But for some reason all those self-reliant Western types in that county always call for cops to come help them. Tell those deputies to disarm.
Many of you do not like cops (for many different reasons) and do not think they should have anything that the private citizens are not allowed. Okay.
Let's disband all police forces. Now wait. If the cops are as restricted as the private citizens very few people are going to want to do the job. HEy I'm a member of the NRA and a cop. I don't want to do this job if I don't have my OC,bodyarmor, Taser, radio, asp, shotgun, handcuffs or marked patrol car. No way.
But why we're at it we also need to disarm the military. Especially the military. I'm not being silly. It's the logical conclusion and I have no doubt that L. Neil Smith would agree.
Of course once the cops and the military is disarmed then everyone else can turn in their various armaments. It's the logical conclusion.
Oh by the way there is a sheriff department to the south of my town which covers a county the size of New Jersey and has two deputies working at night. There back up is often an hour or more away. But for some reason all those self-reliant Western types in that county always call for cops to come help them. Tell those deputies to disarm.
R127
Member
Who needs to bash anything? The only thing we need to do is take a man pill, put on the big boy pants and start being realistic. The system is broke. The koolaid is poisoned. Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results each time is INSANE! Law enforcement officers enforce laws. Laws are created by the legislature. The legislature is *at best* corrupt and unethical. Law enforcement officers are pushed to prevent crime. That means going after people who have commited no crime. Now is not a good time to be enforcing law.
Everybody in a free society needs to be equal under the law or it doesn't work. No special privileges for politicians, judges and their enforcers. The militarization of police forces is also stupid. You know what they call it when you can't tell the military from the police and the ruling class has special privileges above and beyond those of mere mortals? Anybody want to raise their hand?
Everybody in a free society needs to be equal under the law or it doesn't work. No special privileges for politicians, judges and their enforcers. The militarization of police forces is also stupid. You know what they call it when you can't tell the military from the police and the ruling class has special privileges above and beyond those of mere mortals? Anybody want to raise their hand?
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
If it makes anyone feel better, I am on my way to becoming a police officer in MI, and I'm already in the Army National Guard. And I'm sure as hell never taking part in any gun grab.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Grog
Strike that, the minute you start the 'us vs. them' and the 'civvies' are them you negate any argument you might have. Ever hear the phrase 'all men are created equal' in the 18th century sense? Or have you fallen into the trap that 'civvies' are less equal than others. I must wonder if you throw your pistol ball as carelessly as you do your words.
Selena
Wow, I'm impressed...
Strike that, the minute you start the 'us vs. them' and the 'civvies' are them you negate any argument you might have. Ever hear the phrase 'all men are created equal' in the 18th century sense? Or have you fallen into the trap that 'civvies' are less equal than others. I must wonder if you throw your pistol ball as carelessly as you do your words.
Selena
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
How exactly does it keep LEOs in check...? More guns in teh hands of citizens keep criminals in check because criminals can get shot by those citizens. Are you proposing the same with LEOs?
czbegenner
Member
I agree with p-32,i am tired of people
bashing LEO But the second they get
into trouble the call"oh LEO" they want help.Not all cops are bad,some are God fearing peopleTHEY JUST have a different job,just like you did when you were in the military.I agree with the law abiding persons having the same standards,but when i look back on what happen in LA CAL. The bank robbery The many rounds the bad guy had,then i have to take a stand for Leo.No i don't think it's right for them to have what ever weapons ,and ammo they want and good people not have the same,when you and i know the bad guys got that and more.We need to write congress and talk to them,Say this is what we want,and if not work on getting them out of office,and put someone in who will act on our behalf
bashing LEO But the second they get
into trouble the call"oh LEO" they want help.Not all cops are bad,some are God fearing peopleTHEY JUST have a different job,just like you did when you were in the military.I agree with the law abiding persons having the same standards,but when i look back on what happen in LA CAL. The bank robbery The many rounds the bad guy had,then i have to take a stand for Leo.No i don't think it's right for them to have what ever weapons ,and ammo they want and good people not have the same,when you and i know the bad guys got that and more.We need to write congress and talk to them,Say this is what we want,and if not work on getting them out of office,and put someone in who will act on our behalf
Louisiana Carry
Member
Certainly the goal is to return to the intent of the Second Amendment.
I think some of us are just so sick of all the laws that the idea here is that 'if we could just get the clout to get ONE sweeping, politically incorrect law passed..." this would be the one. Again, reason being, everyone would start having to sink or swim TOGETHER.
I am NOT a cop basher (though a few have tempted me to become one, I know that they are just individuals), but this whole discussion is moot, anyway, because it is never going to happen. The ONLY way we will ever get our rights back is the same way we got them written down in the first place- at the cost of alot of blood. As long as everyone has credit cards and American Idol, though, that day will keep being just past the horizon.
I think some of us are just so sick of all the laws that the idea here is that 'if we could just get the clout to get ONE sweeping, politically incorrect law passed..." this would be the one. Again, reason being, everyone would start having to sink or swim TOGETHER.
I am NOT a cop basher (though a few have tempted me to become one, I know that they are just individuals), but this whole discussion is moot, anyway, because it is never going to happen. The ONLY way we will ever get our rights back is the same way we got them written down in the first place- at the cost of alot of blood. As long as everyone has credit cards and American Idol, though, that day will keep being just past the horizon.
not really. One thing that has changed are people's attitudes. Alot of people used to think that the government was done interpretting and that things like the AWB would NEVER happen, yet they did. Ever since then, alot of people started caring. A good number of states have pre-emption to an extent, many are encouraging CCW, and many support or at least welcome the business of gun companies, and the SC has decided to take up the case of Heller. Alot of things in just the past ten years have knocked alot of antis off their high-horses and screwed up things that have been 70-years past. It doesnt take blood.
Also, when did LEOs get full-autos? Last time I checked, your local PO had semis like everyone else. SWAT, on the other hand...
Also, when did LEOs get full-autos? Last time I checked, your local PO had semis like everyone else. SWAT, on the other hand...
Buttermilk
Member
So how many private citizens have sent numerous people to prison? And busted drug labs? And busted organized crime figures? And all the other things that makes a cops job so dangerous?
How many private citizens have had the members of their family discriminated against in the work place and schools because their Dad/Mom was a cop? How many private citizens are on call 24/7/365? How many citizens have been told that when SHTF they will drop everything and run to the gunfire? How many private citizens, when they retire, will run into people and their families that they sent to prison, in the grocery store?
If you think a cops' job stops when he/she walks in their front door, look at the real world of cops!!!
How many private citizens want that cop to be able to handle a situation that citizen may be in, no matter where they are?
Quit fighting the cops and do your part to change the cops attitude about people in general by showing the cops that they have support and are appreciated in their community!!
Cops don't see a lot of the "good folks" in society, but rather must deal daily with many of the dregs of society. As would be natural of a person in that occupation, cops withdraw and protect themselves, physically and psychologically.
Try walking in a cops' shoes before running your mouth.
How many private citizens have had the members of their family discriminated against in the work place and schools because their Dad/Mom was a cop? How many private citizens are on call 24/7/365? How many citizens have been told that when SHTF they will drop everything and run to the gunfire? How many private citizens, when they retire, will run into people and their families that they sent to prison, in the grocery store?
If you think a cops' job stops when he/she walks in their front door, look at the real world of cops!!!
How many private citizens want that cop to be able to handle a situation that citizen may be in, no matter where they are?
Quit fighting the cops and do your part to change the cops attitude about people in general by showing the cops that they have support and are appreciated in their community!!
Cops don't see a lot of the "good folks" in society, but rather must deal daily with many of the dregs of society. As would be natural of a person in that occupation, cops withdraw and protect themselves, physically and psychologically.
Try walking in a cops' shoes before running your mouth.
Just because they chose the job doesnt make them a class above. Try walking a mile in a CCWer's shoes and ask him how it feels when a cop belittles him and gives him the "you dont need that, you dont have a shiny badge like me" routine. I dont CCW (no handgun/not old enough yet), but I'm sure alot of users here can share. Yes, cops are usually good people, and I will not say that I hold disrespect for them, nor do I say that we dont need them. However, I will not agree with alot of things they do. Good cops and bad cops alike can fill their system with corruption and abuse. Considering how frequent it has become in recent years, I'd say that contempt can be justified among law-abiding citizens who potentially end up as victims of harassment, innocent victims of forged or fraudulent warrants, botched raids, excess, etc. etc., then watch as there is almost or absolutely nothing they can do about it because the guy is a part of the same system that person will need to use to have justice served.
Dont get me wrong: nothing is better than hearing of or watching a cop go by the book and give an idiot what he/she deserves, but it also sickens me when they abuse the system they swear to protect, follow and uphold--and get away with it.
Dont get me wrong: nothing is better than hearing of or watching a cop go by the book and give an idiot what he/she deserves, but it also sickens me when they abuse the system they swear to protect, follow and uphold--and get away with it.
jrfoxx
Member
Did you just call me an article of non-uniform clothing? Oh, wait, you probly don't know that's what the term "civvies" means, because your not in the military, and I am. Guess you shouldnt speak as an expert until YOU'VE walked a mile in MY shoes.
Lighten up, Francis.
I dont want to take anything away from anyone.I just want to be able to have the same tools to protect myself that any CITIZEN does, and I'm all for WHATEVER legal method works to get it done.
Old Dog
Member
Arghh!
Once again, good THR members: It is NOT the line cops that make laws regulating firearms! Do we all need some civics lessons here? It's your freakin' state legislators and city councilpersons that foist the BS laws and ordinances on you all ...
Not that it's right, but if you want to take away any sort of firearms from law enforcement, or place some restrictions on what they already have ... you're simply gonna feed into the anti crap that no one needs guns ...
Old Dog
Member
This statement, from the OP's thread-starting post, indicates to me a basic lack of understanding of certain realities.
Primarily, I'd ask the OP to realize that any of those in law enforcement who are in a position to support or work against any sort of legislation will be those in management positions -- i.e., the Chiefs of Police or Police Commissioners, perhaps elected Sheriffs of large counties ... these folks are POLITICIANS, people!
Taking tools away from line cops is never going to lead to private citizens having access to supressors, full-auto firearms, grenades, rockets, or whatever you think LEOs should NOT be exempted from using ...
Let me get this straight: you'd have the Brady bunch agreeing to take already allowed firearms from law enforcement, and this would help RKBA for private citizens?
And the yes votes are leading this poll? ***?
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