Report: President Trump Signing Bump Stock Ban, Citizens Have 90 Days to Turn Them

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All politics is a trade off. Trump knows a good thing when he sees it. Banning bump stocks isn't going to get to many RKBA types upset. It also gives him some leverage with Democrats and others who have no idea what it really means in the general scheme of things. It's small potatoes.

Bump stocks isn't my major concern. Actually a UBC isn't either. We already have one in this state and the sky didn't fall. I see one coming and Trump signing it.

An AWB bill getting out of congress would truly concern me however and I don't honestly know if Trump would veto it. My feeling is he might just sign it into law.

I think Trump may become a common sense gun control president. Sure looks like it's going that direction. As someone stated, his popularity may drop to the point he has no chance of reelection. Then we get more gun control for sure.

This isn't going real well.
 
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This has been revealing. I had no idea there were so many gun control advocates on The High Road.

Gun control is a blight, every bit the open gaping wound on a society that slavery and genocide is, which may be why it so often accompanies them both. It is the duty of every free man to oppose tyranny in all of its forms, including gun control.

Bump stocks are novelty items; good for turning money into noise and little else. They are necessary for nothing, including bump firing--you can still do that with a stick or your belt loop. And none of this makes it a "good thing" that they are being banned. The fact is, unless you are the psycho who shot 58 people in Vegas, you have the right to own one, and no authority on this earth has the power to tell you otherwise. And if you believe otherwise, you are the problem, the reason we are fighting this fight, the reason the 2nd Amendment is all but dead.

I shouldn't have to explain any of this to you people. Here of all places. You should all understand the importance of hanging together, lest we hang separately. The fact that you have no use for something, or that it may be skirting another equally unconstitutional law is no excuse to ban it.

It never stops. We compromise, and then compromise again. They take and they take. They play on the division within us--they know Judas is among us, blissfully ignorant and complacent. Here's your thirty pieces of silver for bump stocks. After all, it's just bump stocks, until it isn't...

Not me. Keep your silver. I'll support any gun control over my dead body. From. My. Cold. Dead. Hands.

And you guys? I'm not mad, just disappointed.
 
Deleted some pure politics. I understand the tendency so no foul.
 
No Compromise from me. I think bump stocks are stupid. A full career in the military and dozens of gunfights, and I never used full auto or burst on any weapon that wasn't belt fed. Based on that, I opt not to own one. Still, not willing to compromise on this. The ATF made a ruling. Their tech branch had every opportunity to disapprove them, just like the brace thing. Words have meanings.
 
At this point, the true believers (absolutists) become separated from those who advocate compromise.

While logic should dictate some give and take on any issue, it is all taketh and no giveth on the part of the opposition, so ... yes, the slope, it becomes slippery.
In order to have a compromise, you have to negotiate toward win-win. Enlighten me when 2A enthusiasts have ever, as a class, sought win-win. All take is a gross exaggeration. Their position just looks like all take in light of the absolutists’ all keep posture.
 
This has been revealing. I had no idea there were so many gun control advocates on The High Road.

Gun control is a blight, every bit the open gaping wound on a society that slavery and genocide is, which may be why it so often accompanies them both. It is the duty of every free man to oppose tyranny in all of its forms, including gun control.

Bump stocks are novelty items; good for turning money into noise and little else. They are necessary for nothing, including bump firing--you can still do that with a stick or your belt loop. And none of this makes it a "good thing" that they are being banned. The fact is, unless you are the psycho who shot 58 people in Vegas, you have the right to own one, and no authority on this earth has the power to tell you otherwise. And if you believe otherwise, you are the problem, the reason we are fighting this fight, the reason the 2nd Amendment is all but dead.

I shouldn't have to explain any of this to you people. Here of all places. You should all understand the importance of hanging together, lest we hang separately. The fact that you have no use for something, or that it may be skirting another equally unconstitutional law is no excuse to ban it.

It never stops. We compromise, and then compromise again. They take and they take. They play on the division within us--they know Judas is among us, blissfully ignorant and complacent. Here's your thirty pieces of silver for bump stocks. After all, it's just bump stocks, until it isn't...

Not me. Keep your silver. I'll support any gun control over my dead body. From. My. Cold. Dead. Hands.

And you guys? I'm not mad, just disappointed.
Trouble is, you live in a democracy. Other peoples’ opinions matter. You only have the rights that the majority gives you. And a constitution with a built in amendment method provides no absolutes. Here today is no more legitimate than gone tomorrow. There are no rights except those the majority agrees with...more or less. Taking unreasonable positions behind the cold, dead hands banner is in all likelihood not going to end well. It doesn’t have to be that way.
 
In terms of a court challenge to this, the strongest argument is that it violates the 5th Amendment "takings" clause, since it prohibits possession without grandfathering and without compensation, of an item that previously was legal.

That could be cured with a provision that would allow registration of bump stocks as machine guns under the NFA. But, the ATF's hands are tied on this, because all bump stocks are post-1986 and the Hughes Amendment operates to preclude such registration.

If a court throws out the regulation on 5th Amendment grounds, the issue gets dumped in Congress' lap. I doubt that Congress would opt to do nothing. Yet, they would have to repeal the Hughes Amendment to do anything on bump stocks. Ironically, Dianne Feinstein herself seems to agree on this point.

This is the silver lining. If a court agrees that the ban violates the 5th Amendment, then we have a win-win situation for gun rights. Either bump stocks would continue to be legal, as before (by congressional inaction), or else the registry would be opened to new machine guns (since bump stocks are machine guns per the ATF's new definition). And if that's the case, since bump stocks are not serially numbered, people would be registering the lower receivers to which they are attached, and then drilling the "third hole." Of course this would make a mockery of the entire NFA, and force Congress to reexamine it in its entirety.
 
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That's the problem too many people believe we have a democracy I missed the amendment that changed the US from a constitutional republic into a democracy.
Democracy always descends into socialism.
It is a democracy, one that operates by the methods of a republic. Demo- means people. At the most basic level, that is who determine the policy of the nation. Not directly mind you, but that is still how it works.
 
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In terms of a court challenge to this, the strongest argument is that it violates the 5th Amendment "takings" clause, since it prohibits possession without grandfathering and without compensation, of an item that previously was legal.

That could be cured with a provision that would allow registration of bump stocks as machine guns under the NFA. But, the ATF's hands are tied on this, because all bump stocks are post-1986 and the Hughes Amendment operates to preclude such registration.

If a court throws out the regulation on 5th Amendment grounds, the issue gets dumped in Congress' lap. I doubt that Congress would opt to do nothing. Yet, they would have to repeal the Hughes Amendment to do anything on bump stocks. Ironically, Dianne Feinstein herself seems to agree on this point.

This is the silver lining. If a court agrees that the ban violates the 5th Amendment, then we have a win-win situation for gun rights. Either bump stocks would continue to be legal, as before (by congressional inaction), or else the registry would be opened to new machine guns (since bump stocks are machine guns per the ATF's new definition). And if that's the case, since bump stocks are not serially numbered, people would be registering the lower receivers to which they are attached, and then drilling the "third hole." Of course this would make a mockery of the entire NFA, and force Congress to reexamine it in its entirety.

I like your optimistic post. Brightened a gloomy day.
 
That's the problem too many people believe we have a democracy I missed the amendment that changed the US from a constitutional republic into a democracy.
You're mixing apples and oranges. The "republic" is the institutional framework, and the "democracy" is the underlying philosophy. The two can and do coexist.
Democracy always descends into socialism.
Ridiculous.
 
Not me. Keep your silver. I'll support any gun control over my dead body. From. My. Cold. Dead. Hands.

That just doesn't make any sense. MT isn't a constitutional carry state. You need a permit to CC in MT. Do you carry a rifle with you everywhere you go? You already have gun control in MT in the form of a carry permit. How do you deal with that? Just curious.
 
The biggest problem I have with the ban is that according to current law bump stocks are legal. You can't just make something illegal because you don't like it. You can't just make something legal because you think the intent of the original law would have been ...(fill in the blank with just about any contentious issue). The president or the ATF can't just wave their hands and interpret the law into something it clearly doesn't say.

Additionally the whole concept of "being in common use" and the Heller decision is bogus. This interpretation limits any future arms advances because something that hasn't been invented would never had the chance to be in common use. If the Heller decision had been made 110 years ago, auto-loading handguns would be illegal because at that point they weren't commonly used by civilians.

Saying we have to compromise isn't necessarily true. There are issues were compromise isn't the best option. If they want to change the law it should be done legislatively.
 
Trouble is, you live in a democracy. Other peoples’ opinions matter. You only have the rights that the majority gives you. And a constitution with a built in amendment method provides no absolutes. Here today is no more legitimate than gone tomorrow. There are no rights except those the majority agrees with...more or less. Taking unreasonable positions behind the cold, dead hands banner is in all likelihood not going to end well. It doesn’t have to be that way.

If you are talking about ordinary legislature not affecting constitutional rights, what you say is true. But what you say is actually rights depend on popular support--bollocks. There are far too many Supreme Court decisions that spit in the face of the majority and are not popular, may be unreasonable, and have caused great injustices. It would be more to the point to argue that disfavored rights of the elites are shoveled under and favored rights are celebrated in practicality. Nevertheless, the point does not hold in our system that rights depend on popular votes.

These and the fact that no revolution has yet begun indicate that actually we don't live in a democracy as pointed out above and your post shows little understanding of the nature of rights. They are not predicated upon "Democracy", a "King", nor a "Commissar". Natural rights exist apart from the political system and political systems are set up to protect rights (see social contract theory). Rights are not collective, so that people do not get to vote on who gets what rights and how much, they are individual in nature. Any such vote to limit someone's natural rights represents an act of tyranny--it is not legitimate even though it would be 99 to 1 which represents the bandwagon fallacy in logic in the extreme.

On the rest of it, I strongly suggest that you read the Federalist papers which explains the nature of each provision and why it is there.

For example,
You keep insisting on the amendment procedure as political but it takes 2/3rds vote of EACH House of Congress Plus 3/4 vote of both houses in the states legislatures (Nebraska only has one) affirming the amendment (38 states as of today). That is the nature of a republic where even the popular vote cannot take immediate effect (that is also why we do not have national plebiscites on issues). For that reason, very few actually go through because we are not a democracy (the last proposed successful one involved the right of 18 year olds to vote during the 1970's) --the small states get a vote too--not just the masses in California and New York. That is by design to prevent encroachments on rights.

For example, my 4th Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure is not up for Congress, the executive, and the state legislature, or even the judiciary to abrogate. Any such action, despite majority approval, represents an act of tyranny.

Instead, your thinking in your post more closely resembles the medieval ideas where rights are subject to the ruler's whims. In your case, Democracy would be the ruling whim. The proper term for that is privileges which are established by law and may be set aside by another ordinary law. There is a reason the Brits rose up against King John and forced a Magna Carta that rejected the idea of rights being dependent on the rulers down his throat at swordpoint and had to reiterate it with various kings until the Glorious Revolution settled the issue in 1688 (as much as anything can be settled).

As a practical matter, I personally find bump stocks and even binary triggers as rather stupid ways of converting ammunition into empty brass. I also believe that these are designed on purpose to circumvent the NFA. On a purely personal note on constitutional law, I believe our current commerce clause jurisprudence to be a mess and an affront to the 10th Amendment and the idea that you can achieve (as did the NFA) the same results by using the taxing power of the government, I find to be a stretch. Recognizing, absent some cataclysm, that neither are likely to change in the near future at the Supreme Court, then the question becomes exactly what is a "machine gun" which is banned by current statute absent NFA registration (which under current law is impossible--thanks Rep. Hughes). Once again, because the Supreme Court is NOT going to overturn the NFA (see stare decisis) in the near future, then as a practical matter, constitutional challenges to the NFA and subsequent statutes won't get anywhere. That leaves whether or not the ATF's actions are a reasonable interpretation of its authority under firearms laws to restrict "machine guns". My prediction is that the courts will go along with that.

However, the massive numbers of these outlawed may result in a successful 5th Amendment challenge that could either grandfather these into legal existence through judicial fiat or force Congress to address the issue.
 
We are not a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic with a Bill of Rights specifically acknowledging natural rights given to us by a power higher than man. The government does not provide me with rights, and can not take them away. Democracy is a euphemism for "mob rule." It is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat. Do you really think the Bill of Rights was included to secure the right of the majority to speak, to defend themselves, to be secure in their persons, papers, and effects? The majority is always heard. The Bill of Rights exists specifically to secure the rights of minority and dissenting opinion.

That just doesn't make any sense. MT isn't a constitutional carry state. You need a permit to CC in MT. Do you carry a rifle with you everywhere you go? You already have gun control in MT in the form of a carry permit. How do you deal with that? Just curious.

Concerning carry laws in MT. Open carry is not only legal, but protected. One can carry concealed without a permit everywhere in this state that is outside of city limits. And the state is "shall issue," if you choose to get a permit to exercise your Second Amendment rights.

Me? I don't ask for permission to exercise my rights. I long ago decided it was better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission. "Shall not be infringed" is a pretty simple concept.
 
If you are talking about ordinary legislature not affecting constitutional rights, what you say is true. But what you say is actually rights depend on popular support--bollocks. There are far too many Supreme Court decisions that spit in the face of the majority and are not popular, may be unreasonable, and have caused great injustices. It would be more to the point to argue that disfavored rights of the elites are shoveled under and favored rights are celebrated in practicality. Nevertheless, the point does not hold in our system that rights depend on popular votes.

These and the fact that no revolution has yet begun indicate that actually we don't live in a democracy as pointed out above and your post shows little understanding of the nature of rights. They are not predicated upon "Democracy", a "King", nor a "Commissar". Natural rights exist apart from the political system and political systems are set up to protect rights (see social contract theory). Rights are not collective, so that people do not get to vote on who gets what rights and how much, they are individual in nature. Any such vote to limit someone's natural rights represents an act of tyranny--it is not legitimate even though it would be 99 to 1 which represents the bandwagon fallacy in logic in the extreme.

On the rest of it, I strongly suggest that you read the Federalist papers which explains the nature of each provision and why it is there.

For example,
You keep insisting on the amendment procedure as political but it takes 2/3rds vote of EACH House of Congress Plus 3/4 vote of both houses in the states legislatures (Nebraska only has one) affirming the amendment (38 states as of today). That is the nature of a republic where even the popular vote cannot take immediate effect (that is also why we do not have national plebiscites on issues). For that reason, very few actually go through because we are not a democracy (the last proposed successful one involved the right of 18 year olds to vote during the 1970's) --the small states get a vote too--not just the masses in California and New York. That is by design to prevent encroachments on rights.

For example, my 4th Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure is not up for Congress, the executive, and the state legislature, or even the judiciary to abrogate. Any such action, despite majority approval, represents an act of tyranny.

Instead, your thinking in your post more closely resembles the medieval ideas where rights are subject to the ruler's whims. In your case, Democracy would be the ruling whim. The proper term for that is privileges which are established by law and may be set aside by another ordinary law. There is a reason the Brits rose up against King John and forced a Magna Carta that rejected the idea of rights being dependent on the rulers down his throat at swordpoint and had to reiterate it with various kings until the Glorious Revolution settled the issue in 1688 (as much as anything can be settled).

As a practical matter, I personally find bump stocks and even binary triggers as rather stupid ways of converting ammunition into empty brass. I also believe that these are designed on purpose to circumvent the NFA. On a purely personal note on constitutional law, I believe our current commerce clause jurisprudence to be a mess and an affront to the 10th Amendment and the idea that you can achieve (as did the NFA) the same results by using the taxing power of the government, I find to be a stretch. Recognizing, absent some cataclysm, that neither are likely to change in the near future at the Supreme Court, then the question becomes exactly what is a "machine gun" which is banned by current statute absent NFA registration (which under current law is impossible--thanks Rep. Hughes). Once again, because the Supreme Court is NOT going to overturn the NFA (see stare decisis) in the near future, then as a practical matter, constitutional challenges to the NFA and subsequent statutes won't get anywhere. That leaves whether or not the ATF's actions are a reasonable interpretation of its authority under firearms laws to restrict "machine guns". My prediction is that the courts will go along with that.

However, the massive numbers of these outlawed may result in a successful 5th Amendment challenge that could either grandfather these into legal existence through judicial fiat or force Congress to address the issue.
How does the elimination of a right by tyranny make it any less eliminated? That is my whole point. You can beat your gums til they bleed about all the rights you have, naturally given, whatever that means, but if enough folks decide otherwise, well whoops, you don’t have that right anymore. Perhaps you should stop looking at Jefferson as a prophet and see him as the propagandist he was instead. Hey, I like what he had to say, because the advocated for the best way for folks to live together in a society, but I don’t make the mistake of thinking there is anything “natural” about it. Certainly not religious. You will get the rights your neighbors are willing to let you have.
 
We are not a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic with a Bill of Rights specifically acknowledging natural rights given to us by a power higher than man. The government does not provide me with rights, and can not take them away. Democracy is a euphemism for "mob rule." It is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat. Do you really think the Bill of Rights was included to secure the right of the majority to speak, to defend themselves, to be secure in their persons, papers, and effects? The majority is always heard. The Bill of Rights exists specifically to secure the rights of minority and dissenting opinion.



Concerning carry laws in MT. Open carry is not only legal, but protected. One can carry concealed without a permit everywhere in this state that is outside of city limits. And the state is "shall issue," if you choose to get a permit to exercise your Second Amendment rights.

Me? I don't ask for permission to exercise my rights. I long ago decided it was better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission. "Shall not be infringed" is a pretty simple concept.
Propaganda.
 
How does the elimination of a right by tyranny make it any less eliminated? That is my whole point. You can beat your gums til they bleed about all the rights you have, naturally given, whatever that means, but if enough folks decide otherwise, well whoops, you don’t have that right anymore. Perhaps you should stop looking at Jefferson as a prophet and see him as the propagandist he was instead. Hey, I like what he had to say, because it he advocated for the best way for folks to live together in a society, but I don’t make the mistake of thinking there is anything “natural” about it. Certainly not religious. You will get the rights your neighbors are willing to let you have.

"endowed by our Creator" ring a bell, that's Creator with a capital 'C'. but I will stop there as I feel I've veered to far away from the basis of this forum. But thought it was fitting given the RKBA's is covered under such unalienable rights.

Oh and by the way Thomas Jefferson's name was written right there on the Declaration of Independence. Prophet, no; very wise man, yes.
 
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"endowed by our Creator" ring a bell, that's Creator with a capital 'C'. but I will stop there as I feel I've veered to far away from the basis of this forum.
As I said, and you conveniently ignored, religion has nothing to do with it. That was just propaganda, not prophecy. No one and no thing is enforcing “your natural rights”. Did the slave owners not think they had the right to own slaves? Did folks not think they had the right to drink alcohol before Prohibition? Rude constitutional awakenings abound in our history. Don’t bet that natural rights will prevent that from happening to gun ownership. Better to try to find common ground with the opposition before there is no ground at all.
 
There is no common ground on gun control. PERIOD.

That's about as blunt as I can be, and I'll leave it at that.
 
The basis of a ‘right’ Is interesting but us discussing the existence of deities is not. Certainly at the of writing the BOR, the inherent rights of the enslaved African population was not obvious as a divine mandate due to the belief of a part of that society. Saying a right is divine is not supported by actual societal action.

It is a useless argument outside of some of the gun choir.
 
As I said, and you conveniently ignored, religion has nothing to do with it. That was just propaganda, not prophecy. No one and no thing is enforcing “your natural rights”. Did the slave owners not think they had the right to own slaves? Did folks not think they had the right to drink alcohol before Prohibition? Rude constitutional awakenings abound in our history. Don’t bet that natural rights will prevent that from happening to gun ownership. Better to try to find common ground with the opposition before there is no ground at all.

Did not slaves believe they had a natural right to Freedom? Do not people believe that they have to right to quiet enjoyment of the privacy of their homes? Do you mock these as propaganda?

At this point, a quote from Robert Heinlein is appropriate--"You can't enslave a free man--at the most, you can kill him." And another anonymous quote "Don't take counsel from your fears." How often we don't even try, and we fail simply because of our fear of failure."
 
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