revolver
- Thread starter Bezoar
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rcmodel
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S&W did it years ago (1980 -1985) with a most innovative for the time copper beryllium wire extractor & head-space pin in the frame to keep the tapered rimless case from expanding setting back, & locking up the gun.
It was the Model 547.
But, every time the roar of the crowd got loud enough for a 9mm revolver?
Somebody brought one out.
And then couldn't sell enough of them to pay the bills making them.
S&W has made .45 ACP revolvers almost continuously since 1917.
They are doing it again today with a whole line of rim-less guns using moon clips.
They currently make revolvers chambered in .45 ACP, 9mm, and used to make them in 10mm/ .40 S&W too.
Ruger makes revolvers in .45 ACP & .30 Carbine.
Charter & Taurus has a few models too.
rc
It was the Model 547.
But, every time the roar of the crowd got loud enough for a 9mm revolver?
Somebody brought one out.
And then couldn't sell enough of them to pay the bills making them.
S&W has made .45 ACP revolvers almost continuously since 1917.
They are doing it again today with a whole line of rim-less guns using moon clips.
They currently make revolvers chambered in .45 ACP, 9mm, and used to make them in 10mm/ .40 S&W too.
Ruger makes revolvers in .45 ACP & .30 Carbine.
Charter & Taurus has a few models too.
rc
I for one, think Charter Arms is onto something with their C.A.R.R.s in the Pitbull.
But they are limited on budget for R&D and low production numbers.
The Pitbull originally started at the $370 price range. But now, when a place does have them in stock, they seem to be in the mid $400 range.
But they are limited on budget for R&D and low production numbers.
The Pitbull originally started at the $370 price range. But now, when a place does have them in stock, they seem to be in the mid $400 range.
Well I bought a S&W 929, it is THE 9mm revolver I always wanted.
I don't know how many of these things Smith is making but they're selling out within 30 minutes of becoming available on line - that is my personal experience of having watching for these things since SHOT Show, and actually ordering 1 of 2 and seeing the second revolver sell by the time I had finished my order.
For target shooting and plinking, the moon clips are really a pain - at least the TK Custom Moon clips that come with the 929. I have seen the moon clips for the Ruger LCP in 9mm are much easier to use, it seems they snap on and off just using your fingers. I definitely need a loading tool and a de-mooner for the 929. But then again for range use you really need to load 10 of these things up before you go. For plinking the Charter Arms would be easier to use, but for self defense dropping a moon clip in the cylinder is the way to go versus loading a round at a time from a strip or a magazine.
If Charter Arms didn't sell many PITBULLs it is their own fault - they hardly made any. For a while there were only two gun makers in the 9mm revolver market, Charter Arms and Taurus. I was very close, many times, to getting the 905 because I really wanted a 9mm revolver and they really were the only ones out there I could actually purchase.
Now there are two S&W models, and Ruger has chambered the LCR in 9x19. If Charter Arms wasn't selling many 9mm PITBULLS before - they're really not going to sell many now.
I don't know how many of these things Smith is making but they're selling out within 30 minutes of becoming available on line - that is my personal experience of having watching for these things since SHOT Show, and actually ordering 1 of 2 and seeing the second revolver sell by the time I had finished my order.
For target shooting and plinking, the moon clips are really a pain - at least the TK Custom Moon clips that come with the 929. I have seen the moon clips for the Ruger LCP in 9mm are much easier to use, it seems they snap on and off just using your fingers. I definitely need a loading tool and a de-mooner for the 929. But then again for range use you really need to load 10 of these things up before you go. For plinking the Charter Arms would be easier to use, but for self defense dropping a moon clip in the cylinder is the way to go versus loading a round at a time from a strip or a magazine.
If Charter Arms didn't sell many PITBULLs it is their own fault - they hardly made any. For a while there were only two gun makers in the 9mm revolver market, Charter Arms and Taurus. I was very close, many times, to getting the 905 because I really wanted a 9mm revolver and they really were the only ones out there I could actually purchase.
Now there are two S&W models, and Ruger has chambered the LCR in 9x19. If Charter Arms wasn't selling many 9mm PITBULLS before - they're really not going to sell many now.
BTW - I am still on a waiting list with two local gun shops for the PITBULL in 9mm.
I think it says something about the two companies that I was able to purchase a S&W 929 ten months after they announced it, and I'm still waiting after 2 years for a Charter Arms PITBULL in 9mm.
I've been on those waiting lists since July 2012:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=667702&highlight=Ecker
Wow - blast from the past:
OMG was that an understatement! No Charter Arms 9mm PITBULLs ever showed up at my local gun stores EVER !
I think it says something about the two companies that I was able to purchase a S&W 929 ten months after they announced it, and I'm still waiting after 2 years for a Charter Arms PITBULL in 9mm.
I've been on those waiting lists since July 2012:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=667702&highlight=Ecker
Wow - blast from the past:
.
OMG was that an understatement! No Charter Arms 9mm PITBULLs ever showed up at my local gun stores EVER !
RetiredUSNChief
Member
I seriously doubt there will be any such market breakthrough's on another rimless cartridge gun in the foreseeable future.
The gun market is a pretty tough, competative market, even for existing, well established guns. Breaking into that market with something new has to have a combination of practical usefullness and physical appeal, not to mention ammunition support, which can go toe-to-toe with what's already out there that people like.
A plus would be a rimless revolver design that uses existing, readily available cartridges, of which there are several good ones. That at least takes care of the ammunition logistics issue.
But revolvers have some detractions compared to their semi-automatic cousins. One being size (automatics can be made slimmer) and that pesky cylinder gap, which causes some reduction in ballistics performance over semi-automatics of similar barrel lengths.
But perhaps the biggest hurdle of all is appeal. Revolvers are simply not as popular as semi-automatics, and thus have a smaller corner of the market to start with.
The cheapest I ever saw the Charter Arms 9mm PITBULL being advertised for was $380.00 but that is a moot point since they never actually materialized at places like Grab-A-Gun and Cheaper Than Dirt, or any of my LGDs
I have so much other stuff I want to buy now, and even if there were a dozen PITBULLs in the case at my LGD going for $350.00 I would buy the Ruger LCR in 9x19 before I bought the PITBULL.
There was a time when I just wanted a 9mm revolver period - I think they're so neat.
But now I have a target shooting 9mm revolver in the 929, the single action trigger is magical, I love it. I have as much fun dry-firing it as I do at the range.
If I were going to use a 9mm revolver for CCW it wouldn't be the PITBULL, I'd probably get the Ruger LCR.
There is still a place in my heart for the PITBULL but it has moved down the priority list quite a bit.
I've trained with semi-autos my whole life and when I try to draw a revolver quickly I end up with a thumbs forward grip on it.
Haven't burned myself yet, but IMO that pesky cylinder gap is another thing (for me personally) that is a downside for the revolver.
On the other hand, revolver users never get rail road tracks across the top of the web of their hand and they never get 45 thumb.
I agree with you on the CCW. I had a Mag Pug, which I believe is the same frame the Pitbull uses, and it has more girth and weight than the LCR.
Until Ruger produces the LCRx in 9mm, which the LCR has a better DA trigger, the Pitbull has a plus with SA.
That's not CA's fault. They don't just ship them out. Blame your LGS management for not ordering them. My LGS has one in case, and when it sells gets another.
I was told the local gun dealer gets on a waiting list with one or more distributors, and when the opportunity to purchase the gun comes up, they check back with me to see if I still want it, if I still want it they get it and I come in and buy it.
I double-checked with the 2 gun stores several times since 2012 to make sure I was still on the list.
They read me my phone number from their record. I was still on the list and they couldn't get Charter Arms PITBULLS in 9mm.
One LGD had it in 40 S&W, but no 9mm.
I'll check to see if I can actually order a PITBULL - that wasn't an option the last time I talked to them.
I double-checked with the 2 gun stores several times since 2012 to make sure I was still on the list.
They read me my phone number from their record. I was still on the list and they couldn't get Charter Arms PITBULLS in 9mm.
One LGD had it in 40 S&W, but no 9mm.
I'll check to see if I can actually order a PITBULL - that wasn't an option the last time I talked to them.
IIRC, S&W developed that 9mm revolver for foreign (French?) police who wanted a revolver for PR reasons but got free 9mm ammo from the Army. Under those conditions, the idea is a good one. But 9mm ammo has a limited power range since it is designed for use in an auto pistol, whereas .357 or even .38 Special is much more flexible.
In this country, there is supposedly a market for a 9mm revolver for old-time cops who have to use 9mm but can't bring themselves to abandon the revolver. But most of those folks are at or nearing retirement, and that market will go away. I just don't see the civilian market as any more than a novelty market, folks who just want to have something different. I don't know if that will be a large or sustainable market.
Jim
In this country, there is supposedly a market for a 9mm revolver for old-time cops who have to use 9mm but can't bring themselves to abandon the revolver. But most of those folks are at or nearing retirement, and that market will go away. I just don't see the civilian market as any more than a novelty market, folks who just want to have something different. I don't know if that will be a large or sustainable market.
Jim
Zaydok Allen
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In answer to the original post, no I don't think it would offset the cost.
I mean no offense to the folks who really like rimless auto cartridge revolvers, but I've never understood the point. Any performance of an auto cartridge in existence can be matched and surpassed with a good magnum revolver and traditional revolver cartridges.
I get that some money can be saved due to ammo cost of different cartridges. 45acp is way cheaper than 45 colt. I know availability is a factor too.
However, neither benefit in my mind is enough of a reason screw around with moon clips or to buy another gun. I'd sooner use the money to buy a 45 acp revolver and invest in a Dillon press and reloading components and start reloading the 1000 once fired 45 colt cases I have sitting around.
That's just me though. So enjoy
I mean no offense to the folks who really like rimless auto cartridge revolvers, but I've never understood the point. Any performance of an auto cartridge in existence can be matched and surpassed with a good magnum revolver and traditional revolver cartridges.
I get that some money can be saved due to ammo cost of different cartridges. 45acp is way cheaper than 45 colt. I know availability is a factor too.
However, neither benefit in my mind is enough of a reason screw around with moon clips or to buy another gun. I'd sooner use the money to buy a 45 acp revolver and invest in a Dillon press and reloading components and start reloading the 1000 once fired 45 colt cases I have sitting around.
That's just me though. So enjoy
dickydalton
Member
I agree with 460Kodiak. I always figured that the only reason for a 9MM at all was because you had 15+ rounds to spray around. Having six onna moon clip sounds dumb to me when you could have had a real revolver.
In my opinion, there really is no additional cost building a rimless cartridge revolver using moon/half moon/1/3 moon clips versus the cost of a rimmed cartridge revolver. the basic design has been around for decades and can be easily adopted to other cartridges and revolvers.
Except for single action revolvers with their ejection rod, building a revolver chambered for a rimless round that does not use clips would be expensive. It has been tried and was not a commercial success.
Regardless, except for 45 ACP revolvers, I feel there is not enough market for rimless cartridge revolvers. Once the initial demand is satisfied after an introduction, sales would probably fall to a trickle. Most folks would buy the revolvers as novelties and large law enforcement/military orders would be non-existent.
Lucky Derby
Member
As much as I would personally love to have a M547 or similar, I just don't think there is enough of a market for one.
There will be NO significant LE, Military, or even security industry contracts. The civilian market has shown time & time again that it really isn't interested.
There will be NO significant LE, Military, or even security industry contracts. The civilian market has shown time & time again that it really isn't interested.
BADUNAME13
Member
I think a 547 style J frame would SELL.
I have a j frame in .356 TSW (it'll shoot 9mm on moon clips)
Problem is, unlike the .45ACP moon clips for my 1917's and shaved cylinder Webley... The 9mm clips bend too easily. Enough to bind.
Relegates it to my gun safe, which was NOT my intent!
Many people carry a J frame as a backup to their auto loader. (I do myself on lazy days) and the ability to peel rounds out of the mag into the cylinder would be VERY desirable to me. (and others I've discussed This with)
I have a j frame in .356 TSW (it'll shoot 9mm on moon clips)
Problem is, unlike the .45ACP moon clips for my 1917's and shaved cylinder Webley... The 9mm clips bend too easily. Enough to bind.
Relegates it to my gun safe, which was NOT my intent!
Many people carry a J frame as a backup to their auto loader. (I do myself on lazy days) and the ability to peel rounds out of the mag into the cylinder would be VERY desirable to me. (and others I've discussed This with)
Zaydok Allen
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